Has anyone tried the Bigha?



Larry Varney wrote:
> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll try again: Is the Bigha a good value for YOU? If you don't
>>>>>> know, why are you so worried about people who do have opinions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And I'll try again: I'll let you know once I've ridden it. And
>>>>> other people's opinions do not have any relationship at all to my
>>>>> not having ridden a BiGHA, nor with my not having an idea as to the
>>>>> value of it, for me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So why are you so invested in running down other people opinion of
>>>> it's poor value? Thirty some posts of telling people their opinions
>>>> are useless. Why so defensive of Bigha?
>>>>
>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>
>>>> "Freedom rings where opinions clash."
>>>> Adlai E. Stevenson
>>>>
>>>
>>> Never have defended the BiGHA, Love. Never have been "defensive" of
>>> it. And as for "running down other people opinion of it's poor value"
>>> - read what I write. I have pointed out, time and again, that there
>>> are many criteria to a purchase, and that weight and price are not
>>> the only two that should or could be considered.
>>> As to those whose opinions are worthless - I never have said that.
>>> I have pointed out that the opinions of those who have never seen,
>>> much less ridden, any bike, including the BiGHA, should be considered
>>> for what they are - examples of ignorance trying to pass themselves
>>> off as something much higher.
>>>
>>
>> So how much does Bigha pay to be a sponsor for your online magazine?
>>
>> Lorenzo L. Love
>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>
>> Thirst makes any wine drinkable
>> And greed makes any crime thinkable.
>>
>>
>>
>
> It's not my magazine. As to how much they pay, I have no idea. Why
> don't you ask the owner? I'm sure he'd be more than happy to tell you.
>

Larry Varney is an editor of the online magazine bentrideronline.com of
which Bigha is a sponsor. Denial of an connection with Bigha is at best
disingenuous. Every time someone is critical of this sponsor, based on
the known facts, Varney goes into attack mode even though he claims to
have no opinion on this bike. People are invited to make their own
conclusions.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
other people."
Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
 
Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
> Larry Varney wrote:
>
>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:05:31 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is about value. Do YOU thing a Bigha is a good value? You
>>>>>>> don't need to buy one to determine that. Do you think that a 50
>>>>>>> lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, this is about your monomania. You have a problem and you've spent
>>>>>> a lot more time on this than it is worth. I've spent a lot less time,
>>>>>> but time spent talking to you is wasted, so yes, I've wasted enough
>>>>>> time as it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>>>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>>>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does such a simple question cause such a kneejerk defensive
>>>>> reaction? Do you thing a Bigha is a good value? Do you think that a
>>>>> 50 lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000? People like Larry
>>>>> Varney have a financial reason, Bigha is an sponsor of his
>>>>> webmagazine. Can't say bad things about a sponsor. What is your
>>>>> connection with Bigha that compels you to attack anyone who is
>>>>> critical of them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hold on a minute, Love. I do not have a "financial reason". Read
>>>> what I write: over and over and over again, I keep telling you and
>>>> your friend that I HAVE NOT RIDDEN THE BIGHA. And, just like with
>>>> those other bikes and trikes I have not ridden, I will not tell
>>>> people if it's a good value or not.
>>>> Do you understand that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> So why all the foaming at the mouth about someone who makes the
>>> obvious observation that the Bigha costs an absurd amount for a heavy
>>> comfort bike? How much does Bigha pay to be a sponsor on your online
>>> magazine?
>>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>
>>
>> No foaming at the mouth at all from me, Lorenzo. And don't be so
>> modest - you have done much more than make an observation about the
>> price of the BiGHA. Or don't you recall all of the comments you've
>> made about those who would pay such a price? If there's any foaming
>> being done, it's coming, if you'll pardon the expression, from your end.
>> I do not have an online magazine. I do have a home page, and if
>> you'd like me to quote you a rate to be an advertiser on it, I'd be
>> glad to.
>
>
> Larry Varney is an editor of the online magazine bentrideronline.com of
> which Bigha is a sponsor. Denial of an connection with Bigha is at best
> disingenuous. Every time someone is critical of this sponsor, based on
> the known facts, Varney goes into attack mode even though he claims to
> have no opinion on this bike. People are invited to make their own
> conclusions.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love
> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>
> "If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
> other people."
> Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
>

ROTFL! You've got to be a politician, Love, or at least a lawyer.
Some sort of professional liar, anyway. I have never denied a connection
with BiGHA - but now that it's mentioned, I will: I have no connection
with BiGHA. I have never ridden one, and I have never seen one - other
than pictures. Sure, the magazine has it as one of its sponsors, but
guess what: I am not the magazine. I don't even own, nor do I control,
the magazine. So is there a connection between BiGHA and me? Nope.
But please, do continue with your lies, distortions, and pathological
fixation on a bike that you have never seen nor ridden, all the while
claiming that everyone who does not share in your monomania is somehow
"defending" the bike, when it is quite obvious that no defense has ever
been made, especially by me.

--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Larry Varney wrote:

> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:05:31 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is about value. Do YOU thing a Bigha is a good value? You
>>>>>>>> don't need to buy one to determine that. Do you think that a 50
>>>>>>>> lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, this is about your monomania. You have a problem and you've
>>>>>>> spent
>>>>>>> a lot more time on this than it is worth. I've spent a lot less
>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>> but time spent talking to you is wasted, so yes, I've wasted enough
>>>>>>> time as it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>>>>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>>>>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why does such a simple question cause such a kneejerk defensive
>>>>>> reaction? Do you thing a Bigha is a good value? Do you think that
>>>>>> a 50 lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000? People like Larry
>>>>>> Varney have a financial reason, Bigha is an sponsor of his
>>>>>> webmagazine. Can't say bad things about a sponsor. What is your
>>>>>> connection with Bigha that compels you to attack anyone who is
>>>>>> critical of them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hold on a minute, Love. I do not have a "financial reason". Read
>>>>> what I write: over and over and over again, I keep telling you and
>>>>> your friend that I HAVE NOT RIDDEN THE BIGHA. And, just like with
>>>>> those other bikes and trikes I have not ridden, I will not tell
>>>>> people if it's a good value or not.
>>>>> Do you understand that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So why all the foaming at the mouth about someone who makes the
>>>> obvious observation that the Bigha costs an absurd amount for a
>>>> heavy comfort bike? How much does Bigha pay to be a sponsor on your
>>>> online magazine?
>>>>
>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>
>>>
>>> No foaming at the mouth at all from me, Lorenzo. And don't be so
>>> modest - you have done much more than make an observation about the
>>> price of the BiGHA. Or don't you recall all of the comments you've
>>> made about those who would pay such a price? If there's any foaming
>>> being done, it's coming, if you'll pardon the expression, from your end.
>>> I do not have an online magazine. I do have a home page, and if
>>> you'd like me to quote you a rate to be an advertiser on it, I'd be
>>> glad to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry Varney is an editor of the online magazine bentrideronline.com
>> of which Bigha is a sponsor. Denial of an connection with Bigha is at
>> best disingenuous. Every time someone is critical of this sponsor,
>> based on the known facts, Varney goes into attack mode even though he
>> claims to have no opinion on this bike. People are invited to make
>> their own conclusions.
>>
>> Lorenzo L. Love
>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>
>> "If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
>> other people."
>> Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
>>
>
> ROTFL! You've got to be a politician, Love, or at least a lawyer. Some
> sort of professional liar, anyway. I have never denied a connection with
> BiGHA - but now that it's mentioned, I will: I have no connection with
> BiGHA. I have never ridden one, and I have never seen one - other than
> pictures. Sure, the magazine has it as one of its sponsors, but guess
> what: I am not the magazine. I don't even own, nor do I control, the
> magazine. So is there a connection between BiGHA and me? Nope.
> But please, do continue with your lies, distortions, and pathological
> fixation on a bike that you have never seen nor ridden, all the while
> claiming that everyone who does not share in your monomania is somehow
> "defending" the bike, when it is quite obvious that no defense has ever
> been made, especially by me.
>

And again he attacks. Why does he go so over board in denying the
obvious financial connection? He works for an organization that gets
part of it's revenue from the bike is is so adamantly defending even
while pretending not to. Every time someone makes the obvious
observation that it costs an outrageous amount for such a heavy comfort
bike, he attacks. If this is not a defense of Bigha, what is it?

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Thirst makes any wine drinkable
And greed makes any crime thinkable.
 
Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
> Larry Varney wrote:
>
>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:05:31 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is about value. Do YOU thing a Bigha is a good value? You
>>>>>>>>> don't need to buy one to determine that. Do you think that a 50
>>>>>>>>> lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, this is about your monomania. You have a problem and you've
>>>>>>>> spent
>>>>>>>> a lot more time on this than it is worth. I've spent a lot less
>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>> but time spent talking to you is wasted, so yes, I've wasted enough
>>>>>>>> time as it is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>>>>>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>>>>>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does such a simple question cause such a kneejerk defensive
>>>>>>> reaction? Do you thing a Bigha is a good value? Do you think that
>>>>>>> a 50 lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000? People like Larry
>>>>>>> Varney have a financial reason, Bigha is an sponsor of his
>>>>>>> webmagazine. Can't say bad things about a sponsor. What is your
>>>>>>> connection with Bigha that compels you to attack anyone who is
>>>>>>> critical of them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hold on a minute, Love. I do not have a "financial reason". Read
>>>>>> what I write: over and over and over again, I keep telling you and
>>>>>> your friend that I HAVE NOT RIDDEN THE BIGHA. And, just like with
>>>>>> those other bikes and trikes I have not ridden, I will not tell
>>>>>> people if it's a good value or not.
>>>>>> Do you understand that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So why all the foaming at the mouth about someone who makes the
>>>>> obvious observation that the Bigha costs an absurd amount for a
>>>>> heavy comfort bike? How much does Bigha pay to be a sponsor on your
>>>>> online magazine?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No foaming at the mouth at all from me, Lorenzo. And don't be so
>>>> modest - you have done much more than make an observation about the
>>>> price of the BiGHA. Or don't you recall all of the comments you've
>>>> made about those who would pay such a price? If there's any foaming
>>>> being done, it's coming, if you'll pardon the expression, from your
>>>> end.
>>>> I do not have an online magazine. I do have a home page, and if
>>>> you'd like me to quote you a rate to be an advertiser on it, I'd be
>>>> glad to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Larry Varney is an editor of the online magazine bentrideronline.com
>>> of which Bigha is a sponsor. Denial of an connection with Bigha is at
>>> best disingenuous. Every time someone is critical of this sponsor,
>>> based on the known facts, Varney goes into attack mode even though he
>>> claims to have no opinion on this bike. People are invited to make
>>> their own conclusions.
>>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>
>>> "If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
>>> other people."
>>> Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
>>>
>>
>> ROTFL! You've got to be a politician, Love, or at least a lawyer.
>> Some sort of professional liar, anyway. I have never denied a
>> connection with BiGHA - but now that it's mentioned, I will: I have no
>> connection with BiGHA. I have never ridden one, and I have never seen
>> one - other than pictures. Sure, the magazine has it as one of its
>> sponsors, but guess what: I am not the magazine. I don't even own, nor
>> do I control, the magazine. So is there a connection between BiGHA and
>> me? Nope.
>> But please, do continue with your lies, distortions, and
>> pathological fixation on a bike that you have never seen nor ridden,
>> all the while claiming that everyone who does not share in your
>> monomania is somehow "defending" the bike, when it is quite obvious
>> that no defense has ever been made, especially by me.
>>
>
> And again he attacks. Why does he go so over board in denying the
> obvious financial connection? He works for an organization that gets
> part of it's revenue from the bike is is so adamantly defending even
> while pretending not to. Every time someone makes the obvious
> observation that it costs an outrageous amount for such a heavy comfort
> bike, he attacks. If this is not a defense of Bigha, what is it?
>
> Lorenzo L. Love

A defense of the BiGHA would involve saying nice things about it. I
haven't. And I have never denied that the magazine has BiGHA as an
advertiser, just that I have no connection with it. BiGHA has given me
nothing. Sure, you can engage in some seven degrees of separation deal,
showing a connection that really isn't there, but I could do the same,
and connect you with Ossam bin Laden. It would be equally fun, and
equally worthless.
No attacks, Love, just a continuing stream of posts on my part
explaining that there are more than two criteria to picking a bike, ANY
bike. I have not defended the BiGHA, ever. Try to find one post where I
have said anything nice about it. I haven't.
OK?
--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Larry Varney wrote:
> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:05:31 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is about value. Do YOU thing a Bigha is a good value? You
>>>>>>>>>> don't need to buy one to determine that. Do you think that a
>>>>>>>>>> 50 lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, this is about your monomania. You have a problem and you've
>>>>>>>>> spent
>>>>>>>>> a lot more time on this than it is worth. I've spent a lot less
>>>>>>>>> time,
>>>>>>>>> but time spent talking to you is wasted, so yes, I've wasted
>>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>>> time as it is.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>>>>>>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>>>>>>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why does such a simple question cause such a kneejerk defensive
>>>>>>>> reaction? Do you thing a Bigha is a good value? Do you think
>>>>>>>> that a 50 lb comfort bike is a good value at $3000? People like
>>>>>>>> Larry Varney have a financial reason, Bigha is an sponsor of his
>>>>>>>> webmagazine. Can't say bad things about a sponsor. What is your
>>>>>>>> connection with Bigha that compels you to attack anyone who is
>>>>>>>> critical of them?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hold on a minute, Love. I do not have a "financial reason".
>>>>>>> Read what I write: over and over and over again, I keep telling
>>>>>>> you and your friend that I HAVE NOT RIDDEN THE BIGHA. And, just
>>>>>>> like with those other bikes and trikes I have not ridden, I will
>>>>>>> not tell people if it's a good value or not.
>>>>>>> Do you understand that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So why all the foaming at the mouth about someone who makes the
>>>>>> obvious observation that the Bigha costs an absurd amount for a
>>>>>> heavy comfort bike? How much does Bigha pay to be a sponsor on
>>>>>> your online magazine?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No foaming at the mouth at all from me, Lorenzo. And don't be so
>>>>> modest - you have done much more than make an observation about the
>>>>> price of the BiGHA. Or don't you recall all of the comments you've
>>>>> made about those who would pay such a price? If there's any foaming
>>>>> being done, it's coming, if you'll pardon the expression, from your
>>>>> end.
>>>>> I do not have an online magazine. I do have a home page, and if
>>>>> you'd like me to quote you a rate to be an advertiser on it, I'd be
>>>>> glad to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Larry Varney is an editor of the online magazine bentrideronline.com
>>>> of which Bigha is a sponsor. Denial of an connection with Bigha is
>>>> at best disingenuous. Every time someone is critical of this
>>>> sponsor, based on the known facts, Varney goes into attack mode even
>>>> though he claims to have no opinion on this bike. People are invited
>>>> to make their own conclusions.
>>>>
>>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>>
>>>> "If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it
>>>> about other people."
>>>> Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
>>>>
>>>
>>> ROTFL! You've got to be a politician, Love, or at least a lawyer.
>>> Some sort of professional liar, anyway. I have never denied a
>>> connection with BiGHA - but now that it's mentioned, I will: I have
>>> no connection with BiGHA. I have never ridden one, and I have never
>>> seen one - other than pictures. Sure, the magazine has it as one of
>>> its sponsors, but guess what: I am not the magazine. I don't even
>>> own, nor do I control, the magazine. So is there a connection between
>>> BiGHA and me? Nope.
>>> But please, do continue with your lies, distortions, and
>>> pathological fixation on a bike that you have never seen nor ridden,
>>> all the while claiming that everyone who does not share in your
>>> monomania is somehow "defending" the bike, when it is quite obvious
>>> that no defense has ever been made, especially by me.
>>>
>>
>> And again he attacks. Why does he go so over board in denying the
>> obvious financial connection? He works for an organization that gets
>> part of it's revenue from the bike is is so adamantly defending even
>> while pretending not to. Every time someone makes the obvious
>> observation that it costs an outrageous amount for such a heavy
>> comfort bike, he attacks. If this is not a defense of Bigha, what is it?
>>
>> Lorenzo L. Love
>
>
> A defense of the BiGHA would involve saying nice things about it. I
> haven't. And I have never denied that the magazine has BiGHA as an
> advertiser, just that I have no connection with it. BiGHA has given me
> nothing. Sure, you can engage in some seven degrees of separation deal,
> showing a connection that really isn't there, but I could do the same,
> and connect you with Ossam bin Laden. It would be equally fun, and
> equally worthless.
> No attacks, Love, just a continuing stream of posts on my part
> explaining that there are more than two criteria to picking a bike, ANY
> bike. I have not defended the BiGHA, ever. Try to find one post where I
> have said anything nice about it. I haven't.
> OK?

And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?
Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine? Which pays
him. Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to criticism of
any other bike with which there is no financial relationship. I'm sure
he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
future sponsor.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Thirst makes any wine drinkable
And greed makes any crime thinkable
 
Lorenzo L. Love wrote:

> And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
> against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?
> Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine? Which pays
> him. Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to criticism of
> any other bike with which there is no financial relationship. I'm sure
> he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
> future sponsor.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love

I'll try to explain this once more for you, Lorenzo. I am not railing
against anyone. Yes, I have said that anyone who bases their decisions
on ignorance is making a mistake, but that's not railing. And I have
said that there are (usually) more than two criteria to buying
decisions, and that was about buying anything, not just your favorite
bike. Got that?
You can criticize the BiGHA all you want - it's what you do. You base
your buying decisions on two critiera: weight and price. Fine, if that's
what you want to do, do it. No one cares.
And no one believes that my pointing out that there are (usually)
more critiera involved in any purchase, sees that as a defense of
anything, much less a bike that I have never seen nor ridden.
So, go ahead, lie all you want, make accusations that even the most
brain-dead, that even you, know to be false. I have not "overreacted" to
criciizm of the BiGHA. I have not defended it. I have not said anything
in favor of it. Ever. Understand that, Love? Or will you continue to lie?


--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
"Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
> against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?

Nobody railed for the price, for many it is excessive and for others its
not. What you want is everyone condemning the bike because of the price and
weight without ever touching one. If they don't you refuse to listen

> Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine?
> Which pays
> him.

I imagine Mr Varney would talk about the price if he reviewed it, every
other review I've seen does.

>How do you know he Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to
criticism of
> any other bike with which there is no financial relationship.

I imagine because its because you've gone overboard to the point of
irrational in anyone not agreeing with your opinion of it. You haven't
overreacted to any other bike either.

> I'm sure
> he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
> future sponsor.

Assuming that is true its not hard getting other sponsers
 
Mark Leuck wrote:
> "Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
>>against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?
>
>
> Nobody railed for the price, for many it is excessive and for others its
> not. What you want is everyone condemning the bike because of the price and
> weight without ever touching one. If they don't you refuse to listen
>
>
>>Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine?
>>Which pays
>>him.
>
>
> I imagine Mr Varney would talk about the price if he reviewed it, every
> other review I've seen does.
>
>
>>How do you know he Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to
>
> criticism of
>
>>any other bike with which there is no financial relationship.
>
>
> I imagine because its because you've gone overboard to the point of
> irrational in anyone not agreeing with your opinion of it. You haven't
> overreacted to any other bike either.
>
>
>>I'm sure
>>he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
>>future sponsor.
>
>
> Assuming that is true its not hard getting other sponsers
>
>

And about that matter of "overreacting" to criticism of a bike - if I
see something being criticized that is completely opposite to my
experiences, I may say something about it - as an example, I have read
some people saying that the Catrike Speed was twitchy or unstable at
high speeds. My experiences, both with the '03 Speed and the '04 Road,
are just the opposite: I have regularly gone in speeds in excess of 45
mph (yes, downhill) on both trikes, and taken my hands off the grips -
they are rock-steady.
If I read criticism about a bike or trike I haven't ridden, I won't
chime in to defend or condemn the bike, simply because I don't form my
conclusions based on ignorance. I may point out the criticising party is
doing just that - making statements based on ignorance or actual
experience with the bike or trike - but that should not be construed as
a defense of the bike, but merely being fair to both the builders and
the potential customers, in pointing out that they may want to view the
opinions of the ignorant with a great deal of skepticism.
Paying attention to the experiencs of others is a good idea, though
it's better to gather your own, if possible. But it is always dangerous
to be swayed by those who have admitted that they have no actual
knowledge of the bike, trike or product under discussion.

--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Larry Varney wrote:
> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
>> And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
>> against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive
>> price? Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine?
>> Which pays him. Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to
>> criticism of any other bike with which there is no financial
>> relationship. I'm sure he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe
>> not, that might cost him a future sponsor.
>>
>> Lorenzo L. Love
>
>
> I'll try to explain this once more for you, Lorenzo. I am not railing
> against anyone. Yes, I have said that anyone who bases their decisions
> on ignorance is making a mistake, but that's not railing. And I have
> said that there are (usually) more than two criteria to buying
> decisions, and that was about buying anything, not just your favorite
> bike. Got that?
> You can criticize the BiGHA all you want - it's what you do. You base
> your buying decisions on two critiera: weight and price. Fine, if that's
> what you want to do, do it. No one cares.
> And no one believes that my pointing out that there are (usually) more
> critiera involved in any purchase, sees that as a defense of anything,
> much less a bike that I have never seen nor ridden.
> So, go ahead, lie all you want, make accusations that even the most
> brain-dead, that even you, know to be false. I have not "overreacted" to
> criciizm of the BiGHA. I have not defended it. I have not said anything
> in favor of it. Ever. Understand that, Love? Or will you continue to lie?
>
>

The observation that the Bigha costs too much is based on the facts as
displayed on their own website. $3000.00 for a 52 pound bike in it's XL
size. Not a high performance bike which you might expect to have a price
like that, not a specialized cargo bike that you might expect to have a
weight like that, but just a comfort bike not fundamentally dissimilar
to a BikeE AT. But for some reason, Varney continues to fly off the
handle everytime someone says that it's just too expensive. Are we to
believe that it's just coincidence that Bigha is one of the sponsors for
the online magazine Varney edits? This continuing campaign to defend a
sponsor really reduces the credibility of your magazine.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Thirst makes any wine drinkable
And greed makes any crime thinkable
 
Larry Varney wrote:
> Mark Leuck wrote:
>
>> "Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
>>> against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nobody railed for the price, for many it is excessive and for others its
>> not. What you want is everyone condemning the bike because of the
>> price and
>> weight without ever touching one. If they don't you refuse to listen
>>
>>
>>> Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine?
>>> Which pays
>>> him.
>>
>>
>>
>> I imagine Mr Varney would talk about the price if he reviewed it, every
>> other review I've seen does.
>>
>>
>>> How do you know he Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to
>>
>>
>> criticism of
>>
>>> any other bike with which there is no financial relationship.
>>
>>
>>
>> I imagine because its because you've gone overboard to the point of
>> irrational in anyone not agreeing with your opinion of it. You haven't
>> overreacted to any other bike either.
>>
>>
>>> I'm sure
>>> he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
>>> future sponsor.
>>
>>
>>
>> Assuming that is true its not hard getting other sponsers
>>
>>
>
> And about that matter of "overreacting" to criticism of a bike - if I
> see something being criticized that is completely opposite to my
> experiences, I may say something about it - as an example, I have read
> some people saying that the Catrike Speed was twitchy or unstable at
> high speeds. My experiences, both with the '03 Speed and the '04 Road,
> are just the opposite: I have regularly gone in speeds in excess of 45
> mph (yes, downhill) on both trikes, and taken my hands off the grips -
> they are rock-steady.
> If I read criticism about a bike or trike I haven't ridden, I won't
> chime in to defend or condemn the bike, simply because I don't form my
> conclusions based on ignorance. I may point out the criticising party is
> doing just that - making statements based on ignorance or actual
> experience with the bike or trike - but that should not be construed as
> a defense of the bike, but merely being fair to both the builders and
> the potential customers, in pointing out that they may want to view the
> opinions of the ignorant with a great deal of skepticism.
> Paying attention to the experiencs of others is a good idea, though
> it's better to gather your own, if possible. But it is always dangerous
> to be swayed by those who have admitted that they have no actual
> knowledge of the bike, trike or product under discussion.
>

Except that you do chime in, over and over again when people make the
observation that the Bigha is too expensive for a heavy comfort bike.
That conservation isn't made through ignorance. It's based on the prices
of comparable bikes. You claim you have no opinion on this bike but you
continuously denigrate the opinions and experience of others. Of course
you have a reason to do so. They are one of your sponsors.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Thirst makes any wine drinkable
And greed makes any crime thinkable
 
Mark Leuck wrote:

> "Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>And yet more foaming at the mouth. Want is his point? Why does he rail
>>against anyone who criticizes Bigha for it's obviously excessive price?
>
>
> Nobody railed for the price, for many it is excessive and for others its
> not. What you want is everyone condemning the bike because of the price and
> weight without ever touching one. If they don't you refuse to listen
>
>
>>Would he do this for a bike that doesn't pay his magazine?
>>Which pays
>>him.
>
>
> I imagine Mr Varney would talk about the price if he reviewed it, every
> other review I've seen does.
>
>
>>How do you know he Follow the money. He hasn't overreacted like this to
>
> criticism of
>
>>any other bike with which there is no financial relationship.
>
>
> I imagine because its because you've gone overboard to the point of
> irrational in anyone not agreeing with your opinion of it. You haven't
> overreacted to any other bike either.
>
>
>>I'm sure
>>he will now, just to prove a point. Or maybe not, that might cost him a
>>future sponsor.
>
>
> Assuming that is true its not hard getting other sponsers
>
>

I haven't overreacted to any bike, just made the obvious observation
that it costs far too much. Do you think that $3000 is a good value for
a heavy comfort bike? As for other bikes, I have been quite critical of
Vision bikes in the past, although not for their price. Maybe you should
do a little research before saying something foolish.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand
 
"Larry Varney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
> > Mr. Varney has scored heavily here as he has got me on my own words.
Yes,
> > you do have to try out the damn seats as you can not predict what they
are
> > going to be like from previous experience with other seats. This also
> > applies to a lesser degree with the steering and handling. However, not
> > being a millionaire, I can safely avoid $3000. comfort bikes weighing 50
> > pounds without giving it a second thought. Mr. Varney's mistake is that
he
> > can give such bikes second thoughts.
> >
> > So how was the Indiana ride?
> >
>
> I am *not* giving "such bikes second thoughts". I have not commented,
> favorably or unfaorably, on the BiGHA, nor on any other bike or trike
> that I haven't ridden. I have not considered, neither first or second
> thought, on buying the BiGHA - and it has nothing to do with either its
> weight or its price.

If you haven't ruled it out on the basis of price and weight then you have
given it a second thought. Unlike Lorenzo and me, who are both geniuses, we
have ruled it out on the basis of price and weight. But not everyone can be
smart like us. Some folks are dumb like you. Apparently you are waiting to
ride it so you can decide. Lorenzo and I do not have to ride it in order to
KNOW that it is a very bad buy.

> Your reasoning is faulty, btw. The "not being a millionaire" - that
> sounds like it's the price that's keeping you away, that's allowing you
> to "safely avoid $3000 comfort bikes". But what if it were another type
> of bike, one that you would like, one that, for example, weighs quite a
> bit less? Same price, different weight? Wouldn't the "not being a
> millionaire" still apply?

The adjective "and" as it applies to price and weight is critical to this
whole discussion. There has got to be something wrong with the way your
brain works. From pictures of you that I have seen on the Internet, you do
not look like a rich person to me. The fact is that most rich people would
not be caught dead on any recumbent - period! They prefer Jaguars.

> Anyway, the Indiana ride - and the Illinois one, too - were fun as
> usual. I just wisht that I were doing them again this week, rather than
> just remembering them.
> I do wish that the state parks would stop fiddling with their shower
> thermostats the week before we arrive, as that seems to be the common
> excuse given for cold showers ("They were warm last week, honest!").
> Perhaps the answer is to go with tours that utilize shower trucks, such
> as Bike Florida.

Most of the week long organized group tours that I have done (quite a few)
use school facilities for their headquarters for the overnights.
Occasionally, I too have experienced state parks, city parks and county
fairgrounds, and they are never as good. When the weather turns really bad
it is very nice to have a high school building to retreat to. The showers
are a minor thing with me, but I do like a nice warm building to get into
when the weather turns cold and nasty.

--
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I haven't overreacted to any bike, just made the obvious observation
> that it costs far too much.

Sure you have, you've spent 40+ messages explaining all that

> Do you think that $3000 is a good value for
> a heavy comfort bike?

Depends on the bike, you do not wish to understand that price and weight
aren't everything.


> As for other bikes, I have been quite critical of
> Vision bikes in the past, although not for their price.

I don't know what you've said about them in the past, whatever it is they've
done they paid the price, time will tell if BigHa will suffer the same fate

> Maybe you should
> do a little research before saying something foolish.

Research like in actually ride the bike? good idea, you might try doing the
same
 
Mark Leuck wrote:
> "Lorenzo L. Love" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I haven't overreacted to any bike, just made the obvious observation
>>that it costs far too much.
>
>
> Sure you have, you've spent 40+ messages explaining all that

No, I spent 40+ messages responding to people defending an overpriced
heavy comfort bike that they never rode.

>
>
>>Do you think that $3000 is a good value for
>>a heavy comfort bike?
>
>
> Depends on the bike, you do not wish to understand that price and weight
> aren't everything.

We are not discussing any bike, we are discussing this particular
$3000.00, 52 pound bike. Do you think that the Bigha is a good value at
that price?

>
>
>
>>As for other bikes, I have been quite critical of
>>Vision bikes in the past, although not for their price.
>
>
> I don't know what you've said about them in the past, whatever it is they've
> done they paid the price, time will tell if BigHa will suffer the same fate

There's always Google.

I also predicted that when BikeE stopped mail order sales by companies
like Hostel Shoppe where I got mine, that it was a bad sign of the
future of the company.

>
>
>>Maybe you should
>>do a little research before saying something foolish.
>
>
> Research like in actually ride the bike? good idea, you might try doing the
> same

Because dealers don't trust these people not to screw them over like
they did when they ran BikeE, Bigha doesn't sell through dealers. That
makes it hard to test ride one. All I know about Bigha is what I read on
their website and that convinces me that it's not a good buy. Would you
pay $3000 for a bike you never saw?

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Talk is cheap because supply exceeds demand
 
Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>You claim you have no opinion on this bike but you
> continuously denigrate the opinions and experience of others. Of course
> you have a reason to do so. They are one of your sponsors.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love
> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>

When you have some "experience" with this bike, please let us all
know. I am not denigrating your opinion at all, btw, but merely pointing
out that, again, it is just your opinion, based solely on an observation
of the weight and price of a bike you've never seen nor ridden.
If that's how you make your purchase decisions, that's fine - but
don't act as if it's the only way, the best way, for everyone. Some of
us look at other criteria as well, and a test ride is often one of the
most important.
And as for them being one of my sponsors: nope, they're not.

--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Larry Varney" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>>Mr. Varney has scored heavily here as he has got me on my own words.
>
> Yes,
>
>>>you do have to try out the damn seats as you can not predict what they
>
> are
>
>>>going to be like from previous experience with other seats. This also
>>>applies to a lesser degree with the steering and handling. However, not
>>>being a millionaire, I can safely avoid $3000. comfort bikes weighing 50
>>>pounds without giving it a second thought. Mr. Varney's mistake is that
>
> he
>
>>>can give such bikes second thoughts.
>>>
>>>So how was the Indiana ride?
>>>
>>
>> I am *not* giving "such bikes second thoughts". I have not commented,
>>favorably or unfaorably, on the BiGHA, nor on any other bike or trike
>>that I haven't ridden. I have not considered, neither first or second
>>thought, on buying the BiGHA - and it has nothing to do with either its
>>weight or its price.
>
>
> If you haven't ruled it out on the basis of price and weight then you have
> given it a second thought. Unlike Lorenzo and me, who are both geniuses, we
> have ruled it out on the basis of price and weight. But not everyone can be
> smart like us. Some folks are dumb like you. Apparently you are waiting to
> ride it so you can decide. Lorenzo and I do not have to ride it in order to
> KNOW that it is a very bad buy.
>
>

Did you read what you responded to? Did you read where I said that I
was NOT giving it "second thoughts"? Didn't that tell you that I was not
considering buying the bike? But no, I did not decide not to buy it,
just "on the basis of price and weight" - I do not believe that a valid
buying decision is based just on those two criteria. I don't buy food,
cars, houses, nor bicycles on just those two criteria, and I find it
interesting and peculiar to meet two "geniuses" who do.

>> Your reasoning is faulty, btw. The "not being a millionaire" - that
>>sounds like it's the price that's keeping you away, that's allowing you
>>to "safely avoid $3000 comfort bikes". But what if it were another type
>>of bike, one that you would like, one that, for example, weighs quite a
>>bit less? Same price, different weight? Wouldn't the "not being a
>>millionaire" still apply?
>
>
> The adjective "and" as it applies to price and weight is critical to this
> whole discussion. There has got to be something wrong with the way your
> brain works. From pictures of you that I have seen on the Internet, you do
> not look like a rich person to me. The fact is that most rich people would
> not be caught dead on any recumbent - period! They prefer Jaguars.
>
>

Normally, I would not point this out, but I hate to see a "genius"
make such a mistake without offering assistance. 'And' is not an adjective.

>> Anyway, the Indiana ride - and the Illinois one, too - were fun as
>>usual. I just wisht that I were doing them again this week, rather than
>>just remembering them.
>> I do wish that the state parks would stop fiddling with their shower
>>thermostats the week before we arrive, as that seems to be the common
>>excuse given for cold showers ("They were warm last week, honest!").
>>Perhaps the answer is to go with tours that utilize shower trucks, such
>>as Bike Florida.
>
>
> Most of the week long organized group tours that I have done (quite a few)
> use school facilities for their headquarters for the overnights.
> Occasionally, I too have experienced state parks, city parks and county
> fairgrounds, and they are never as good. When the weather turns really bad
> it is very nice to have a high school building to retreat to. The showers
> are a minor thing with me, but I do like a nice warm building to get into
> when the weather turns cold and nasty.
>


--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Larry Varney wrote:

> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
>> You claim you have no opinion on this bike but you continuously
>> denigrate the opinions and experience of others. Of course you have a
>> reason to do so. They are one of your sponsors.
>>
>> Lorenzo L. Love
>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>
>
> When you have some "experience" with this bike, please let us all
> know. I am not denigrating your opinion at all, btw, but merely pointing
> out that, again, it is just your opinion, based solely on an observation
> of the weight and price of a bike you've never seen nor ridden.
> If that's how you make your purchase decisions, that's fine - but
> don't act as if it's the only way, the best way, for everyone. Some of
> us look at other criteria as well, and a test ride is often one of the
> most important.
> And as for them being one of my sponsors: nope, they're not.
>

Anyone experienced with recumbents know that you don't need to pay
$3000.00 for a 52 pound comfort bike.

Your continuing disavow of a financial connection with Bigha is
obviously dishonest to anyone who has seen the bentrideronline.com home
page. They are one of the sponsers of the online magazine you are editor
of. That's clear, denials simply destroy your credibility and the
credibility of your magazine.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
other people."
Virginia Woolf (1882-1941).
 
Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
> Larry Varney wrote:
>
>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>
>>> You claim you have no opinion on this bike but you continuously
>>> denigrate the opinions and experience of others. Of course you have a
>>> reason to do so. They are one of your sponsors.
>>>
>>> Lorenzo L. Love
>>> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
>>>
>>
>> When you have some "experience" with this bike, please let us all
>> know. I am not denigrating your opinion at all, btw, but merely
>> pointing out that, again, it is just your opinion, based solely on an
>> observation of the weight and price of a bike you've never seen nor
>> ridden.
>> If that's how you make your purchase decisions, that's fine - but
>> don't act as if it's the only way, the best way, for everyone. Some of
>> us look at other criteria as well, and a test ride is often one of the
>> most important.
>> And as for them being one of my sponsors: nope, they're not.
>>
>
> Anyone experienced with recumbents know that you don't need to pay
> $3000.00 for a 52 pound comfort bike.
>
> Your continuing disavow of a financial connection with Bigha is
> obviously dishonest to anyone who has seen the bentrideronline.com home
> page. They are one of the sponsers of the online magazine you are editor
> of. That's clear, denials simply destroy your credibility and the
> credibility of your magazine.
>
> Lorenzo L. Love
> http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

Lorenzo, let's get this straight: BiGHA is one of the magazine's
sponsors. They run an ad there. BiGHA is NOT, I repeat NOT, a sponsor of
ME. Got that? They don't sponsor, pay, provide food, clothing, nothing,
to ME. Got that?
And why do you keep carrying on about that bike? That "you don't need
to pay $3000 for a 52 pound comfort bike." No kidding! Who in the hell
ever said that you did? Me? Only in your most demented dreams, Lorenzo.
You don't need to spend $3000 for such a bike, you don't need to
spend $1000. In fact, you don't need to spend ANYTHING. Yes, we all know
that you taken it upon yourself to explain to the world that the bike
isn't worth that kind of money. In your opinion, as expressed above,
$3000 for a "comfort bike" that weighs 52 pounds, is not a good deal.
Fine. No one, and most emphatically me, has ever said that it is a good
deal, a good value - for you.
What some people have said, though, that it MAY be a "good value" for
other people, people who MAY judge the bike by other criteria than
weight and price. Got that? A "good value" BY THEIR STANDARDS AND
CRITERIA, and for them - not you. Do you disagree? Do you think that
your standards, your criteria, are the only correct ones, and that they
must apply to everyone?
Grow up, get a life, admit that you've got a problem over this bike,
and maybe you'll find that you've wasted an awful lot of time that could
have been spent doing something useful.
--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
"Larry Varney" <[email protected]> wrote
> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>> Larry Varney wrote:
>>> Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
[etc., etc., etc...]

> you'll find that you've wasted an awful lot of time that could
> have been spent doing something useful.

Useful is as useful does,-- to paraphrase Gump. %^) But
one wonders the point of continuing the tango, as it were, of
useful/useless interchanges. Artful poses?

Jon Meinecke
 
Jon Meinecke wrote:
> "Larry Varney" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>>
>>>Larry Varney wrote:
>>>
>>>>Lorenzo L. Love wrote:
>
> [etc., etc., etc...]
>
>
>>you'll find that you've wasted an awful lot of time that could
>>have been spent doing something useful.
>
>
> Useful is as useful does,-- to paraphrase Gump. %^) But
> one wonders the point of continuing the tango, as it were, of
> useful/useless interchanges. Artful poses?
>
> Jon Meinecke
>
>

And I wonders as well - sometimes you get caught up in something, and
it's difficult to get out.

--
Larry Varney
Cold Spring, KY
http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
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