Iraq ain't about Oil



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Tom --

You really haven't got a f*ckin clue how many people worldwide oppose the war. You only know what we
all see: highly vocal and visible groups of protesters, provoked, expanded and amplified by the
idiot TV cameras. You have no idea how may others are sitting at home because they disagree with the
protesters, are apathetic or think the protesters are assh*les.

--
Gator Bob Siegel EasyRacers Ti Rush

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote the vast majority of people worldwide are united in
being strongly opposed to a US invasion of Iraq.
 
brian hughes wrote:
>
> Huh? So all those bombing missions over the Yugoslavian providences of Kosovo and Serbia didn't
> happen then? Okay, history can be remembered anyway you wish.

Here is a chronology of recent events in (former) Yugoslavia. [1] Note that Milosevic was in power
for 16 months after the NATO bombing campaign ended. I do not believe that I am the one with a
deficient memory of history in this case.

[1] < http://www.pbs.org/weta/dictator/serbia/chronology.html >

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon

We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.
- Martin Luther King Jr.
 
What Michael says (and) especially his last line would be my hope as well re: locate and return any
MIAs and hopefully this campaign will NOT include anyone KIA.
-------------------------------------------
"Michael Perry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "brian hughes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > > OThers are stupid enough to have ignored the innocents killed in EVERY action. Was it a school
> > > or a hospital we bombed by mistake? Oops,
sorry
> > > dead folks, guess that bomb wasn't so smart.
> >
> > Actually I'm quite familiar with the accuracy of our latest weapon
systems.
> > But it's funny when the totally clueless tell others to get a clue. But
you
> > can't help it, you don't know any better.
>
> Unfortunately, accurate weapons only go so far. When the wrong target is chosen, you destroy it...
> with greater accuracy.
>
> We will probably be using a number of not-smart bombs, too. Even with those, due to improvements
> in aiming, they go truer than in previous wars... you just can't steer them once they are dropped.
> Innocents are killed in any war. Having a military that likes to hide its weapons in housing
> developments certainly doesn't help matters. When "innocents" are killed, it's all our fault,
> right? Their military OBVIOUSLY cares Soooo much for their people, when they use them as human
> shields. (Speaking of which, we should have let that busload go into Iraq. What intelligence does
> it take to turn yourself over to Sadam?)
>
> It's going to be an ugly war. This time I hope our side takes time to look for MIAs.
 
Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> Tom --
>
> You really haven't got a f*ckin clue how many people worldwide oppose the war. You only know what
> we all see: highly vocal and visible groups of protesters, provoked, expanded and amplified by the
> idiot TV cameras. You have no idea how may others are sitting at home because they disagree with
> the protesters, are apathetic or think the protesters are assh*les.

Robert,

The US media first tried to ignore the protests, and then has downplayed them when they became too
significant to ignore. Even then, they usually focus on the tiny violent minority rather than the
peaceful vast majority of protesters.

Recent polls in Europe show the following percentages are against an invasion of Iraq without
explicit UN approval: Britain (90%), Italy (73%), Spain (90%), and Turkey (94%). And these are the
countries whose governments are trying to drum up support for joining the US in an invasion.

Even in the US, almost 60% of the people believe that the UN inspectors should receive more time
before additional [1] military action is taken. This is despite of 42% believing that Hussein was
involved in the Sept. 11, 2001 [2] terrorist attacks, which not even the Bush administration has
claimed to be true. And over 50% in the US currently oppose a war in which there would be
significant Iraqi civilian casualties.

It should also be noted that most of the recent US protest marchers are "normal" working and/or
middle class - only a small fraction are the "professional protester" types.

Do you really have more of a "****ing clue" [3] to how the people worldwide feel on this issue than
the professional polling organizations, and if so, please share the source of this knowledge with
the rest of us?

[1] There of course has intermittent been low-level warfare between the US/UK and Iraq since the US
and UK imposed the "No-Fly" zones over Iraq.
[2] Referred to in most of the world as the 11/9 attacks, due to the numerical month/day convention
commonly used being the opposite of the one primarily used in the US.
[3] I see no point in substituting asterisks in old Anglo-Saxon terms, since everyone knows what is
meant anyhow.

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon

Violence does, in truth, recoil upon the violent, and the schemer falls into the pit which he digs
for another." - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
 
Jim Verheul asked:

> Where does wax come from? I think its a petroleum product too.

Paraffin wax, for example, yes, but you can also get it from bees. And Father Jack's ears.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
"brian hughes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Jim Verheul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
> >
> > I think that defining war as a political act shows an incredible disregard for human life. There
> > are a few parts of the world were your disregard
> seems
> > to be shared, sadly. Admittedly, this disregard, both yours and others, seems to be for certain
> > human life and not all human life. How do you, or they, draw the line? maybe its just easier for
> > me to give all human life
> the
> > same value.
> >
>
> Actually defining war as a political act isn't a recent notion that I myself had. The Chineese
> philosopher Sun Tzu wrote about it in his book "The Art of War" several thousand years ago. Carl
> von Clausewitz the Prussian military strategious in the late 1700s wrote in depth about how
> political objective is the goal, war is the means. Sun Tzu and Von Clausewitz are still required
> readings in US military courses--and are still very much applicable today.
>

You are quite right about Clausewitz. Sun Tzu, however, said war was an act of stupidity.
 
In a valiant attempt to make the stupid Iraq thread have somthing to do with HPVs

> Jim Verheul asked:
>
> > Where does wax come from? I think its a petroleum product too.

> And Dave Larrington replied:
>
> Paraffin wax, for example, yes, but you can also get it from bees. And Father Jack's ears.

And Kent Peterson adds:

I'm testing this stuff:

http://www.soytek.com/cycling/cycleproducts.html

It's a soy based chain lube system. Both the solvent and the wax seem pretty good.

Kent Peterson Issaquah WA USA http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/rando.html
 
"Jim Verheul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Where does wax come from? I think its a petroleum product too.

Wax comes from bees that are enslaved by cruel beekeepers who keep the intelligent little
creatures in white boxes and steal the fruits of their labor, selling it to line their pockets
with filthy cash.

Bees have rights!

Boycott wax! Burn clover! Kill Winnie the Pooh!
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Dave Larrington wrote:
> >
> > Anyone thinking that Bush's and Nobhead's little jaunt will be cheap and painless should try to
> > lay hands on a copy of the G2 section of "The Guardian" from February 14th. Don McCullin's
> > introduction can be found here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,894704,00.html. The
> > photographs are not available online which, if one is at all squeamish, is a Good Thing. One can
> > only view so many burned and dismembered Iraqi corpses, blinded American soldiers and Kurdish
> > children starving to death because "our" erstwhile allies, the Turks, denied them entry into
> > Turkey before one begins to yearn for something a little easier on the eye. See also:...
>
> We can be assured that if the invasion occurs, journalists will be kept far away from the combat
> areas until things can be tidied up. The mainstream US media would not report in depth on Iraqi
> casualties, as it would be "unpatriotic".
>
> Rest assured that the most graphic reports of death and destruction available would be widely
> reported in predominately Muslim countries - it would be a veritable recruiting bonanza for Al
> Qaeda and other anti-US terrorist groups.
>
> Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon
>
> The first casualty, when war comes, is truth. - Senator Hiram Johnson

That was not what happened in the first Gulf war. In fact, the media created such an uproar over the
Iraqi casualities (the highway of death) that we had to cease and desist from the war before it had
been properly won. The Iraqi casualities should have been ignored in the interest of prosecuting the
war to a successful conclusion, but of course those who hate all wars, no matter how justified, were
able to bamboozle the Bush administration into prematurely halting the war. Now we are going to have
to do it all over again because of this weakness in the American will. I hope and trust that Bush
Jr. will have more guts than his father and will know how to see a war through to a successful
conclusion. By the way, the solution to the terrorist problem is to out terrorist the terrorists.
All that is required in order to accomnplish this is guts and will, qualities that are sorely
lacking, with a few exceptions, in this newsgroup as far as I can tell.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Jackal <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> >>
> >> No way this is going to be another Vienam nor is it going to cost many American lives. It is
> >> something we can do on the cheap and the payoff will be tremendous - a whole new middle east
> >> that will be much more to our liking. Read your history. War solves many otherwise unsolvable
> >> problems.
>
>
> You are one DREAMING mof'er.

Now there is an intelligent comment. Even the benighted Tom Sherman does not stoop that low. Why do
you think this second Gulf war is going to be any different than the first Gulf war? Or maybe, like
the French, you would just as soon belly up and not have to take any hard decisions. The history of
American arms since Vietnam has been nothing but glorious. Just one victory after another. But of
course there are those who love defeat and who hate America. Jackal well describes you.
 
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Cletus Lee wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> > I'm testing this stuff:
> >
> > http://www.soytek.com/cycling/cycleproducts.html
> >
> > It's a soy based chain lube system. Both the solvent and the wax seem pretty good.
>
> OK, where can this stuff be obtained? On the site there is no mention of sales. Aside from an
> email addy, there is not much to go on.

I don't know if they're retailing it yet, but here's the base page:

http://www.soytek.com/soyframe.html

Kent Peterson Issaquah WA USA http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/rando.html
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
> >
> > No way this is going to be another Vienam nor is it going to cost many American lives. It is
> > something we can do on the cheap and the payoff will be tremendous - a whole new middle east
> > that will be much more to our liking. Read your history. War solves many otherwise unsolvable
> > problems.
>
> I agree completely. How dare the people in the Middle East lay claim to AMERICA'S OIL, just
> because it lies beneath their pitiful countries? Kill them all, and let Jehovah/God/Allah sort
> them out.
>
> What good are our nuclear weapons if we don't get to use them on other people, anyhow?
>
> Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon

I didn't say anything about using nuclear weapons, but it would not be a bad idea to use nuclear
weapons if Saddam uses his biological and chemical weapons. You can rest assured that if he had them
he would use them. But of course, you are not in a postion to influence Saddam any which way
whatever. If you were in his kingdom, your hands be cut off and your tongue removed after which you
would be as subservient as any of his subjects. You can only post to this news group with your
assinine opinions on everything under the sun. You are indefatigable and a trial and tribulation to
all the rest of us. Christ, give it a rest!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
> The history of American arms since Vietnam has been nothing but glorious. Just one victory
> after another

Which films have you been watching? I don't recall much glorious or victorious about the attempt
to rescue the Tehran hostages, for example. Sample dialogue: "Of course you don't get dust storms
in Iran at this time of year!" Or are we not counting "police actions" (distinguishable by lack of
Bob Hope)?

And for the record, it *is* possible to be anti-THIS-war without being pro-Saddam, to be
pro-Iraqi-people without being anti-American and to believe one's elected leaders are a bunch of
pond-slime without being anti-democratic.

"There's a village in Texas missing its idiot" - banner spotted on London Anti-war march, February
15th 2003.

Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Brian Rost wrote:
> >
> > Ny only regret is that those who have this "bomb them into the next century" mentality aren't
> > all volunteering for the front lines. As a veteran, maybe I hold the president to a higher
> > standard than most when it comes to wasting young lives for vague reasons....
>
> The combined 535 members of the US Congress have one child who is an enlisted member of the US
> armed forces.
>
> Of course, G.W. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Eliot Abrams, Richard Perle, Tom DeLay, Joe
> Lieberman, Karl Rove, etc. all have very distinguished combat records. [1]
>
> On the other hand, noted opponent of invading Iraq, French President Jacques Chirac has actually
> fought in a colonial war in an Arab country (Algeria) and was wounded in combat.
>
> [1] < http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html >
>
> Tom Sherman - Recumbent Pedant Curmudgeon
>
> Young men pressed into the service of empire have always paid for it with their lives. Rudyard
> Kipling's epitaph for them still resonates today: "If any question why we died, Tell them because
> our fathers lied."

All totally irrelevant. But then you thrive on irrelevancies. Just one tangent after another. Try
just once confronting an issue head on. Like for instance, just what the hell would you do about
someone like Saddam Hussein? Or does it take an atom bomb going off in the Quad Cities (Illinois
Side) to rouse you from your slumbers.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jim Verheul wrote:
> >
> > How will you feel abou the Iraqi civilians who are killed?
> >
> > JV
>
> I thought the primary objective of war was to kill people, especially if they look a little
> different, dress differently, speak a different language, practice a different religion, follow a
> different denomination of the same religion, have valuable natural resources, or refuse to accept
> the FREE MARKET/WTO/World Bank/IMF as the source of all that is good in the world. All these are
> valid moral reasons for killing people both domestically and in foreign countries - the more
> killed and the more suffering they undergo, the more just the war is.
>
> Violence is the best way to solve problems, as it does not require any compromises in one's
> position, and the only difficulty former opponents provide is disposal of their corpses.
>
> Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon
>
> Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is
> the person who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate,
> that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe.
> Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off and inject within the very
> structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love. - Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Forget the irony Tom Sherman and the attempts at humor. These are not your strong suits. Better to
stick to your usual pedantry, attention to irrelevant detail and all your asides which never go
anywhere except to confuse and confound. Also, I thought you were a civil engineer, not a preacher.
If I get any more moral messages from you I am going to upchuck. You have no credentials to be
preaching to anyone since you can't seem to think clearly about the most elementary things, such as
the question of war or peace with Sadamm's Iraq - a real no brainer in my opinion.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Kent Peterson wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Cletus Lee wrote:
>
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>>
>>>I'm testing this stuff:
>>>
>>>http://www.soytek.com/cycling/cycleproducts.html
>>>
>>>It's a soy based chain lube system. Both the solvent and the wax seem pretty good.
>>>
>>OK, where can this stuff be obtained? On the site there is no mention of sales. Aside from an
>>email addy, there is not much to go on.
>>
>
> I don't know if they're retailing it yet, but here's the base page:
>
> http://www.soytek.com/soyframe.html
>
> Kent Peterson Issaquah WA USA http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/rando.html
>
>

I don't think it's being retailed yet either, but it soon will be. And it's going to be
manufactured in Cincinnati (OH).

--
Larry Varney Cold Spring, KY http://home.fuse.net/larryvarney
 
Kent Peterson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Cletus Lee wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> >
> > > I'm testing this stuff:
> > >
> > > http://www.soytek.com/cycling/cycleproducts.html
> > >
> > > It's a soy based chain lube system. Both the solvent and the wax seem pretty good.
> >
> > OK, where can this stuff be obtained? On the site there is no mention of sales. Aside from an
> > email addy,
there is not much to go
> > on.
>
> I don't know if they're retailing it yet, but here's the base page:
>
> http://www.soytek.com/soyframe.html
>
> Kent Peterson Issaquah WA USA http://www.halcyon.com/peterson/rando.html
What about whale oil (ducking after drive by) Pat
 
[email protected] (Edward Dolan) wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Dave Larrington wrote:
>> >
>> > Anyone thinking that Bush's and Nobhead's little jaunt will be cheap and painless should try to
>> > lay hands on a copy of the G2 section of "The Guardian" from February 14th. Don McCullin's
>> > introduction can be found here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,894704,00.html. The
>> > photographs are not available online which, if one is at all squeamish, is a Good Thing. One
>> > can only view so many burned and dismembered Iraqi corpses, blinded American soldiers and
>> > Kurdish children starving to death because "our" erstwhile allies, the Turks, denied them entry
>> > into Turkey before one begins to yearn for something a little easier on the eye. See also:...
>>
>> We can be assured that if the invasion occurs, journalists will be kept far away from the combat
>> areas until things can be tidied up. The mainstream US media would not report in depth on Iraqi
>> casualties, as it would be "unpatriotic".
>>
>> Rest assured that the most graphic reports of death and destruction available would be widely
>> reported in predominately Muslim countries
>> - it would be a veritable recruiting bonanza for Al Qaeda and other anti-US terrorist groups.
>>
>> Tom Sherman - Recumbent Curmudgeon
>>
>> The first casualty, when war comes, is truth. - Senator Hiram Johnson
>
> That was not what happened in the first Gulf war. In fact, the media created such an uproar over
> the Iraqi casualities (the highway of death) that we had to cease and desist from the war before
> it had been properly won. The Iraqi casualities should have been ignored in the interest of
> prosecuting the war to a successful conclusion, but of course those who hate all wars, no matter
> how justified, were able to bamboozle the Bush administration into prematurely halting the war.
> Now we are going to have to do it all over again because of this weakness in the American will. I
> hope and trust that Bush Jr. will have more guts than his father and will know how to see a war
> through to a successful conclusion. By the way, the solution to the terrorist problem is to out
> terrorist the terrorists. All that is required in order to accomnplish this is guts and will,
> qualities that are sorely lacking, with a few exceptions, in this newsgroup as far as I can tell.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>

Perhaps the guts and will of the people of this newsgroup reside WITHIN, not with warmongering
rhetoric posted on a newsgroup featuring OTHER people dying. YOU are of COURSE, in the military and
stationed offshore, ready and willing to to die for this cause. RIGHT?????????
 
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