[OT: humour] On the subject of taking Iraq messages elsewhere



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The history of the US is that they roll back or curtail some freedoms during times of war
(suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil War, for instance), prosecute a few people
for treason, acts of war, etc., convict a handful, and then pardon all but one or two in the
aftermath of the conflict. I don't think this situation will be much different.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Mike O'Brien" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:OZv1a.43730$2H6.313@sccrnsc04...
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]>
>
> | I assume you are talking about the recently leaked draft of the revisions [1] to the US Patriot
> | Act [2] that were being prepared in secret by the Department of Justice?
>
> How about a little warning! Geez! I spit coffee all over the computer screen. <g>
>
> 1. Proving once and for all that Tom DOES have a sense of humour...
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike O'Brien
>
> At a reduction in gene pool variability rate of 7.5% per generation, how long will it take a town
> that has been bypassed by the interstate to breed a country-western singer?
 
Freewheeling wrote:
> ... I just don't know why you can't make an inference from behavior. If you have a gun to a
> criminal's head, and he refuses to remove his hand from behind his back it'd be rather stupid to
> not to insist that the weapon you know is there be seen and removed before you holster *your*
> weapon. And that's a precise analogy to what we have here. Start using your noggin a little....

Scott,

But you would be able to shoot the criminal before he shot you if he tried to draw his gun.
The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle approach is to shoot just because the criminal MAY
have a weapon.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
> ... It [regime change] would also be pretty "convenient" for the Iraqi people....

Scott,

Yes, but not by a US invasion that will destroy water and wastewater treatment facilities and the
power generation stations that supply the electricity to run them. In addition, Iraq is very low on
food and medical supplies (due to 12 years of economic sanctions that have failed to weaken
Hussein's government domestically) to the point where a disruption from an invasion may well lead to
significant civilian casualties in addition to the ones caused directly by military ordinance. A
huge number of refugees will be created, which the region is not capable of dealing with.

Oh well, who cares - the Iraqi's are mostly Arab and Muslims, so their lives are practically
worthless by US government standards.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
> ... And *that's* the real conflict that lies behind anti-Americanism. > That, and a healthy dose
> of envy....

Scott,

Yes, the northern and western Europeans are jealous of the comparative lack of worker protection
laws, the longer work hours, the greater income disparity, the greater cost of health coverage and
the lack of that converge for 1/7 of the population, the higher individual cost of secondary
education, and the lack of a social safety net in the US.

Time to climb down out of the academic ivory tower and see what conditions are like for working
class people in the US.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
>
> The history of the US is that they roll back or curtail some freedoms during times of war
> (suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil War, for instance), prosecute a few
> people for treason, acts of war, etc., convict a handful, and then pardon all but one or two in
> the aftermath of the conflict. I don't think this situation will be much different.

Scott,

But Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft-etc. are promising a "War on Terror" without a foreseeable end. [1]
Therefore, their attempt to nullify the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments to the US
Constitution will continue without a foreseeable end. Of course, that will be very useful in dealing
with reporters that look too closely into their business dealings, organizers of anti-war movements,
trade union organizers, anti-WTO-World Bank-IMF protestors, and any one else who opposes their
coporatist/militaristic empire building activities.

[1] How does one determine when an abstract noun has been defeated?

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. . . . All you have to do is tell
them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
>
> ...Only that paedophile pervert Scott Ritter thinks he doesn't, and Sean Penn....

For what it is worth, the two girls that Scott Ritter ALLEGEDLY attempted to entice into sexual acts
were 14 and 16 years of age, which is at or beyond the age of consent in several countries and US
states. Certainly a lessor offence than those many Catholic Priests are accused and/or convicted of.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
"But you would be able to shoot the criminal before he shot you if he tried to draw his gun."

You would? With it in your holster, and his in his hand? Maybe you're a faster draw then me.

"The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle approach is to shoot just because the criminal MAY have
a weapon."

See, this sort of mischaracterization is what bothers me about you guys. We haven't shot anyone.
We have our gun drawn and are saying "pull that hand from behind your back to proove you're
unarmed, or else."

I'm really getting tired of pointing out the obvious. I honestly don't understand what's
wrong with you.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> > ... I just don't know why you can't make an inference from behavior. If you have a gun to a
> > criminal's head, and he refuses to remove his hand from behind his back it'd be rather stupid to
> > not to insist that the weapon
you
> > know is there be seen and removed before you holster *your* weapon. And that's a precise analogy
> > to what we have here. Start using your noggin
a
> > little....
>
> Scott,
>
> But you would be able to shoot the criminal before he shot you if he tried to draw his gun.
> The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle approach is to shoot just because the criminal MAY
> have a weapon.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
"Scott,

Yes, but not by a US invasion that will destroy water and wastewater treatment facilities and the
power generation stations that supply the electricity to run them. In addition, Iraq is very low on
food and medical supplies (due to 12 years of economic sanctions that have failed to weaken
Hussein's government domestically) to the point where a disruption from an invasion may well lead to
significant civilian casualties in addition to the ones caused directly by military ordinance. A
huge number of refugees will be created, which the region is not capable of dealing with."

Look, why didn't you read that cite I posted awhile back about how this war will be conducted, and
how it'll differ from the strategy used during the Second Gulf War? (This would be the third.) In
direct contravention of your claim, our strategy is to prevent Saddam Hussein from destroying his
own infrastructure. We know perfectly well we'll be stuck in Iraq after it's over attempting to hold
a fragmented society and economy together.

(Why do I even bother. In one ear and out the other.)

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> > ... It [regime change] would also be pretty "convenient" for the Iraqi
people....
>
> Scott,
>
> Yes, but not by a US invasion that will destroy water and wastewater treatment facilities and the
> power generation stations that supply the electricity to run them. In addition, Iraq is very low
> on food and medical supplies (due to 12 years of economic sanctions that have failed to weaken
> Hussein's government domestically) to the point where a disruption from an invasion may well lead
> to significant civilian casualties in addition to the ones caused directly by military ordinance.
> A huge number of refugees will be created, which the region is not capable of dealing with.
>
> Oh well, who cares - the Iraqi's are mostly Arab and Muslims, so their lives are practically
> worthless by US government standards.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
>
> Tom:
>
> If they currently had an *effective* strategic capability they wouldn't be playing this game of
> hide and seek at all. The danger, fortunately, isn't what they have at the moment but what they're
> working on. And even if we were, by some unaccountable miracle, to remove *all* their current
> capability the fact that they could simply utilized their knowledge base and ability to bypass the
> economic sanctions to get going again represents an ongoing political and military problem.
>
> Furthermore, they need not have an effective strategic capability to destroy a city. A container
> the size of a refrigerator, hidden in a shipping container at a major port could do it, on the
> nuclear side. Even simpler if they employ biological or chemical.

Scott,

And why should we invade Iraq, but not North Korea, which certainly seems to present a greater
strategic thread, as Kim Jong II may well be mentally unbalanced (not true of Saddam Hussein from
the available evidence), and has or could rapidly develop the capability to hit US allies such as
South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan with nuclear armed missiles, or possibly the US and Europe with
further developmental work? Is it because Iraq is much weaker militarily than North Korea? Would
this not give other countries the incentive to develop nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles to
deter attacks by the US?

Another danger would be the US invasion of Iraq triggering an Islamic fundamentalist overthrow of
the government in Pakistan. Then we would have to deal with another enemy with nuclear weapons and
ballistic missiles. Such a regime might even be willing to turn over a nuclear weapon to terrorist
groups such as Al Qaeda to use in an attack on Israel or the US (a much greater probability than
Hussein ever would turn over WMD's to fundamentalist terrorists, unless he knew a US invasion was
inevitable).

The CIA (a veritable hotbed of anti-US pacifists) does not believe that Hussein would use WMD's
against the US unless his back was against the wall. Saddam Hussein has never been particularly
anti-US or anti-Western; at one time he boasted about being the best friend of the US in the Middle
East. It was the US that betrayed him, by giving the green light for the invasion of Kuwait [1], not
the other way around.

And how much of a threat could Iraq pose with if the French-Russian proposal in put into place:
three times the current numbers of UN weapons inspectors back up by armed UN forces in Iraq, a
complete no-fly over Iraq with surveillance flights for weapons inspection, and 150,000 US troops
stationed in neighboring countries if Iraq did carry out attacks?

There are other groups that certainly pose more of a danger in attacking the US and Western Europe -
Al Qaeda for one. A unilateral US invasion of Iraq will both destroy the necessary foreign
cooperation the US needs to combat such terrorist groups, and serve as a recruiting aid with the
resulting rise in Muslim and Arab anger at the US. If Bush-Cheney-etc. were really concerned about
US security, they would focus on Al Qaeda and similar groups and not the invasion of Iraq.

[1] Per the comment of former US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie on July 25, 1990, to Saddam
Hussein, "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait.
Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to
Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

"No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear."
-Edmund Burke
 
What war has "a foreseeable end?" I stand by what I said. History is on my side, not yours... and
beyond that it's pointless and time consuming.

I don't imagine there'll be a single mea culpa about any of these bold predictions you're
making anyway.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > The history of the US is that they roll back or curtail some freedoms
during
> > times of war (suspension of the writ of habeas corpus during the Civil
War,
> > for instance), prosecute a few people for treason, acts of war, etc., convict a handful, and
> > then pardon all but one or two in the aftermath
of
> > the conflict. I don't think this situation will be much different.
>
> Scott,
>
> But Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft-etc. are promising a "War on Terror" without a foreseeable end. [1]
> Therefore, their attempt to nullify the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments to the US
> Constitution will continue without a foreseeable end. Of course, that will be very useful in
> dealing with reporters that look too closely into their business dealings, organizers of anti-war
> movements, trade union organizers, anti-WTO-World Bank-IMF protestors, and any one else who
> opposes their coporatist/militaristic empire building activities.
>
> [1] How does one determine when an abstract noun has been defeated?
>
> "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. . . . All you have to do is tell
> them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
> country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
"For what it is worth, the two girls that Scott Ritter ALLEGEDLY attempted to entice into sexual
acts were 14 and 16 years of age, which is at or beyond the age of consent in several countries
and US states. Certainly a lessor offence than those many Catholic Priests are accused and/or
convicted of."

I can't believe you're so unpolitik as to defend this creep. And I daresay most of the countries
that have such lax consent laws are the very ones you hold as superior to the US in some vague way.
You know, the ones with the "admirable cultural values" you think we should emulate? The ones
founded on the basis of ethnic identity, where women are regularly murdered for the sake of the
convenience of their relatives? The ones where we're hegemonically imposing our unsophisticated and
culturally insensitive values?

Anyway, this has just gotten ridiculous. I can see you're entrenched, and I don't believe in trench
warfare. It's quits. Email me if you want to continue offline.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > ...Only that paedophile pervert Scott Ritter thinks he doesn't, and Sean
Penn....
>
> For what it is worth, the two girls that Scott Ritter ALLEGEDLY attempted to entice into sexual
> acts were 14 and 16 years of age, which is at or beyond the age of consent in several countries
> and US states. Certainly a lessor offence than those many Catholic Priests are accused and/or
> convicted of.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
>
> "But you would be able to shoot the criminal before he shot you if he tried to draw his gun."
>
> You would? With it in your holster, and his in his hand? Maybe you're a faster draw then me.
>
> "The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle approach is to shoot just because the criminal MAY have a
> weapon."
>
> See, this sort of mischaracterization is what bothers me about you guys. We haven't shot anyone.
> We have our gun drawn and are saying "pull that hand from behind your back to proove you're
> unarmed, or else."
>
> I'm really getting tired of pointing out the obvious. I honestly don't understand what's wrong
> with you.

Scott,

Your original scenario was, "If you have a gun to a criminal's head, and he refuses to remove his
hand from behind his back it'd be rather stupid to not to insist that the weapon you know is there
be seen and removed before you holster *your* weapon." I was not suggesting "holstering my weapon",
but refraining from shooting the criminal while there was still a possibility of convincing him to
surrender his weapon by dropping it on the ground. This is what I believe the plan currently being
proposed by the French and Russians would accomplish.

You may feel free to believe that the current US government has pure motives, but I do not. Using
the same type of inferences that you do to conclude that Saddam Hussein/Iraq does indeed have WMD's,
it could be concluded that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle-etc. do not want a peaceful
resolution to the situation, as that will deprive them of the change to exert US military power.

I honestly do not understand people who believe that solving problems with violence will not lead to
further violence in retaliation, when all of history shows the opposite.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

"War destroys any conception of goals, including any conception of the goals of war. It even
destroys the idea of putting an end to war." - Simone Weil
 
Freewheeling wrote:
> ... We know perfectly well we'll be stuck in Iraq after it's over attempting to hold a fragmented
> society and economy together....

Scott,

Like the wonderful example of nation building the US is currently setting in Afghanistan - leave it
up to local warlords to run 90% of the country, while having yet to supply most of our promised
rebuilding aid?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
You're now just recycling arguments I've responded to before. It's sort of pointless to continue.
Just do a search of the thread on the word "China."

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > Tom:
> >
> > If they currently had an *effective* strategic capability they wouldn't
be
> > playing this game of hide and seek at all. The danger, fortunately,
isn't
> > what they have at the moment but what they're working on. And even if
we
> > were, by some unaccountable miracle, to remove *all* their current capability the fact that they
> > could simply utilized their knowledge base
and
> > ability to bypass the economic sanctions to get going again represents
an
> > ongoing political and military problem.
> >
> > Furthermore, they need not have an effective strategic capability to
destroy
> > a city. A container the size of a refrigerator, hidden in a shipping container at a major port
> > could do it, on the nuclear side. Even
simpler if
> > they employ biological or chemical.
>
> Scott,
>
> And why should we invade Iraq, but not North Korea, which certainly seems to present a greater
> strategic thread, as Kim Jong II may well be mentally unbalanced (not true of Saddam Hussein from
> the available evidence), and has or could rapidly develop the capability to hit US allies such as
> South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan with nuclear armed missiles, or possibly the US and Europe with
> further developmental work? Is it because Iraq is much weaker militarily than North Korea? Would
> this not give other countries the incentive to develop nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles to
> deter attacks by the US?
>
> Another danger would be the US invasion of Iraq triggering an Islamic fundamentalist overthrow of
> the government in Pakistan. Then we would have to deal with another enemy with nuclear weapons and
> ballistic missiles. Such a regime might even be willing to turn over a nuclear weapon to terrorist
> groups such as Al Qaeda to use in an attack on Israel or the US (a much greater probability than
> Hussein ever would turn over WMD's to fundamentalist terrorists, unless he knew a US invasion was
> inevitable).
>
> The CIA (a veritable hotbed of anti-US pacifists) does not believe that Hussein would use WMD's
> against the US unless his back was against the wall. Saddam Hussein has never been particularly
> anti-US or anti-Western; at one time he boasted about being the best friend of the US in the
> Middle East. It was the US that betrayed him, by giving the green light for the invasion of Kuwait
> [1], not the other way around.
>
> And how much of a threat could Iraq pose with if the French-Russian proposal in put into place:
> three times the current numbers of UN weapons inspectors back up by armed UN forces in Iraq, a
> complete no-fly over Iraq with surveillance flights for weapons inspection, and 150,000 US troops
> stationed in neighboring countries if Iraq did carry out attacks?
>
> There are other groups that certainly pose more of a danger in attacking the US and Western Europe
> - Al Qaeda for one. A unilateral US invasion of Iraq will both destroy the necessary foreign
> cooperation the US needs to combat such terrorist groups, and serve as a recruiting aid with the
> resulting rise in Muslim and Arab anger at the US. If Bush-Cheney-etc. were really concerned about
> US security, they would focus on Al Qaeda and similar groups and not the invasion of Iraq.
>
> [1] Per the comment of former US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie on July 25, 1990, to Saddam
> Hussein, "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait.
> Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to
> Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> "No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear."
> -Edmund Burke
 
"The CIA (a veritable hotbed of anti-US pacifists) does not believe that Hussein would use WMD's
against the US unless his back was against the wall."

OK, I've had it with this ****. I posted last week about the fact that this isn't what's important
about what Tenet said, that it's just a rational statement of caution, and that the peace movement
always leaves out the section where he testifies that: "the likelihood of Saddam using W.M.D. for
blackmail, deterrence, or otherwise grows as his arsenal builds." You read it, yet here you are
making the same s****d claim.

Do you not pay attention? Never mind, I've had it. Just don't have the time for this game.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > Tom:
> >
> > If they currently had an *effective* strategic capability they wouldn't
be
> > playing this game of hide and seek at all. The danger, fortunately,
isn't
> > what they have at the moment but what they're working on. And even if
we
> > were, by some unaccountable miracle, to remove *all* their current capability the fact that they
> > could simply utilized their knowledge base
and
> > ability to bypass the economic sanctions to get going again represents
an
> > ongoing political and military problem.
> >
> > Furthermore, they need not have an effective strategic capability to
destroy
> > a city. A container the size of a refrigerator, hidden in a shipping container at a major port
> > could do it, on the nuclear side. Even
simpler if
> > they employ biological or chemical.
>
> Scott,
>
> And why should we invade Iraq, but not North Korea, which certainly seems to present a greater
> strategic thread, as Kim Jong II may well be mentally unbalanced (not true of Saddam Hussein from
> the available evidence), and has or could rapidly develop the capability to hit US allies such as
> South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan with nuclear armed missiles, or possibly the US and Europe with
> further developmental work? Is it because Iraq is much weaker militarily than North Korea? Would
> this not give other countries the incentive to develop nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles to
> deter attacks by the US?
>
> Another danger would be the US invasion of Iraq triggering an Islamic fundamentalist overthrow of
> the government in Pakistan. Then we would have to deal with another enemy with nuclear weapons and
> ballistic missiles. Such a regime might even be willing to turn over a nuclear weapon to terrorist
> groups such as Al Qaeda to use in an attack on Israel or the US (a much greater probability than
> Hussein ever would turn over WMD's to fundamentalist terrorists, unless he knew a US invasion was
> inevitable).
>
> The CIA (a veritable hotbed of anti-US pacifists) does not believe that Hussein would use WMD's
> against the US unless his back was against the wall. Saddam Hussein has never been particularly
> anti-US or anti-Western; at one time he boasted about being the best friend of the US in the
> Middle East. It was the US that betrayed him, by giving the green light for the invasion of Kuwait
> [1], not the other way around.
>
> And how much of a threat could Iraq pose with if the French-Russian proposal in put into place:
> three times the current numbers of UN weapons inspectors back up by armed UN forces in Iraq, a
> complete no-fly over Iraq with surveillance flights for weapons inspection, and 150,000 US troops
> stationed in neighboring countries if Iraq did carry out attacks?
>
> There are other groups that certainly pose more of a danger in attacking the US and Western Europe
> - Al Qaeda for one. A unilateral US invasion of Iraq will both destroy the necessary foreign
> cooperation the US needs to combat such terrorist groups, and serve as a recruiting aid with the
> resulting rise in Muslim and Arab anger at the US. If Bush-Cheney-etc. were really concerned about
> US security, they would focus on Al Qaeda and similar groups and not the invasion of Iraq.
>
> [1] Per the comment of former US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie on July 25, 1990, to Saddam
> Hussein, "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait.
> Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to
> Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> "No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear."
> -Edmund Burke
 
Freewheeling wrote:
>
> "For what it is worth, the two girls that Scott Ritter ALLEGEDLY attempted to entice into sexual
> acts were 14 and 16 years of age, which is at or beyond the age of consent in several countries
> and US states. Certainly a lessor offence than those many Catholic Priests are accused and/or
> convicted of."
>
> I can't believe you're so unpolitik as to defend this creep. And I daresay most of the countries
> that have such lax consent laws are the very ones you hold as superior to the US in some vague
> way. You know, the ones with the "admirable cultural values" you think we should emulate? The ones
> founded on the basis of ethnic identity, where women are regularly murdered for the sake of the
> convenience of their relatives?....

Scott,

Yes, this type of murder of women regularly occurs in AUSTRIA, GERMANY, ICELAND, LIECHTENSTEIN and
the NETHERLANDS, all of which have an age of consent of 14 or less. Compared to the US, all of these
countries also happen to have universal health care, less unequal wealth distribution, a better
social safety net/less poverty, civil rights protections roughly equivalent to those of US citizens
in the US, and a similar average/higher median quality of life.

I also happen to believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty - what crimes has Scott
Ritter been CONVICTED of?

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
"I was not suggesting "holstering my weapon", but refraining from shooting the criminal while there
was still a possibility of convincing him to surrender his weapon by dropping it on the ground. This
is what I believe the plan currently being proposed by the French and Russians would accomplish."

I'll not bother to discuss the French plan, which involves some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard
a public official say in my life. But I do endorse Carl Levin's approach, which is to simply begin
implementing the terms of 1441 regarding spy aircraft and safe harbor interviews, without
negotiating anything with the Iraqis. That way we'll know for sure, without all the shenanigans,
whether they intend to ever give up their arsenal. If they don't, we shoot the regime and make sure
it's as clean a kill as possible. I'm not even remotely concerned about whether Saddam or his
Mukhabarat survive. Levin is the only clear and rational critic of the Bush administration I've
heard to far. The rest are just talking nonsense.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > "But you would be able to shoot the criminal before he shot you if he tried to draw his gun."
> >
> > You would? With it in your holster, and his in his hand? Maybe you're
a
> > faster draw then me.
> >
> > "The Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle approach is to shoot just because the criminal MAY have
> > a weapon."
> >
> > See, this sort of mischaracterization is what bothers me about you guys.
We
> > haven't shot anyone. We have our gun drawn and are saying "pull that
hand
> > from behind your back to proove you're unarmed, or else."
> >
> > I'm really getting tired of pointing out the obvious. I honestly don't understand what's wrong
> > with you.
>
> Scott,
>
> Your original scenario was, "If you have a gun to a criminal's head, and he refuses to remove his
> hand from behind his back it'd be rather stupid to not to insist that the weapon you know is there
> be seen and removed before you holster *your* weapon." I was not suggesting "holstering my
> weapon", but refraining from shooting the criminal while there was still a possibility of
> convincing him to surrender his weapon by dropping it on the ground. This is what I believe the
> plan currently being proposed by the French and Russians would accomplish.
>
> You may feel free to believe that the current US government has pure motives, but I do not. Using
> the same type of inferences that you do to conclude that Saddam Hussein/Iraq does indeed have
> WMD's, it could be concluded that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfwitz-Perle-etc. do not want a peaceful
> resolution to the situation, as that will deprive them of the change to exert US military power.
>
> I honestly do not understand people who believe that solving problems with violence will not lead
> to further violence in retaliation, when all of history shows the opposite.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>
> "War destroys any conception of goals, including any conception of the goals of war. It even
> destroys the idea of putting an end to war." - Simone Weil
 
Look, instead of keeping to the subject you raised now you're off onto something else. I just don't
have the time or inclination to do this. You brought up the issue of the battle plan as it relates
to the preservation of the Iraqi infrastructure. What we're doing or not doing in Afghanistan or
what we'll do in Iraq when this is over deserve a website all their own. And a lot more knowledge of
"nation building" than I suspect you possess. But if you want to discuss that, email me.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> > ... We know perfectly well we'll be stuck in Iraq after it's over attempting to hold a
> > fragmented society and economy
together....
>
> Scott,
>
> Like the wonderful example of nation building the US is currently setting in Afghanistan - leave
> it up to local warlords to run 90% of the country, while having yet to supply most of our promised
> rebuilding aid?
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
Freewheeling wrote:
> ... Only that paedophile pervert Scott Ritter thinks he doesn't...

Please note that the definition of a pedophile according to the American
Psychiatric Association is:

"A person who over at least a 6 month period has recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies,
sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (age 13
years or younger). The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress
or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. The person is at
least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children. Not to include an
individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12 or 13 year old
(straight or gay). Individuals with pedophilia generally report an attraction to children of a
particular age range. Some individuals prefer males, others prefer females, and some are aroused by
both males and females. Pedophilia involving female victims is reported more than pedophilia
involving male victims."

Since the two alleged intended victims were 14 and 16 years of age, IF Scott Ritter is indeed guilty
of the alleged behavior, it would be hebephilia and not pedophilia.

Of course, pedophilia is a much more emotionally charged term than hebephilia, and therefore is
better to slander a person's character with.

Of course, I have no idea whether the allegations against Ritter are true or not, but it would not
be the first attempt that has been made to destroy his reputation because he opposes the Bush
Administration's policy on Iraq. However, likes the other 6 billion people in the world, Ritter
deserves the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
OK, child molester then. Just email me if you actually think this topic worth pursuing. I don't.

--
--Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Freewheeling wrote:
> > ... Only that paedophile pervert Scott Ritter thinks he doesn't...
>
> Please note that the definition of a pedophile according to the American
> Psychiatric Association is:
>
> "A person who over at least a 6 month period has recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies,
> sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (age 13
> years or younger). The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress
> or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. The person is at
> least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children. Not to include an
> individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12 or 13 year old
> (straight or gay). Individuals with pedophilia generally report an attraction to children of a
> particular age range. Some individuals prefer males, others prefer females, and some are aroused
> by both males and females. Pedophilia involving female victims is reported more than pedophilia
> involving male victims."
>
> Since the two alleged intended victims were 14 and 16 years of age, IF Scott Ritter is indeed
> guilty of the alleged behavior, it would be hebephilia and not pedophilia.
>
> Of course, pedophilia is a much more emotionally charged term than hebephilia, and therefore is
> better to slander a person's character with.
>
> Of course, I have no idea whether the allegations against Ritter are true or not, but it would not
> be the first attempt that has been made to destroy his reputation because he opposes the Bush
> Administration's policy on Iraq. However, likes the other 6 billion people in the world, Ritter
> deserves the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
 
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