I agree there is some uncertainty but thats to be expected with the departure of LA. There is still alot of racing left in the season.limerickman said:
Discovery in disarray.... ?
- Thread starter whiteboytrash
- Start date
Yes there is still a lot of racing left, but i don't think it will get better (at least not this season)...thebluetrain said:
Well like they say in the Detroit Pistons/Cleveland Cavaliers series:cyclingheroes said:
"Thats why they play the games"
Eldrack said:
I don't disagree that DC has had a better early season than last year, but you are not counting all of the relevant races in 06 (and also not in 05, but I'll use 06 as an illustration of the flaws in the above list). Here are some additional wins and jerseys (not even just placements) in 06:
Tour de Romandie, Prologue, Savoldelli (if that counts as early season)
Tour de Georgia, two stages, Danielson and Popo
Tour de Gerogia, Mountain jersey, McCartney
Tour de Georgia, Best Young Rider jersey, Brajkovich
Tour de California, two stages, Hincapie
Three Days of De Panne, Hoste
Two stages of Three Days of De Panne, Hoste
Team competition, Tirreno-Adriatico
Vuelta a Castilla y Leon, 1 stage, Popo
KOM, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon, Beltran
Team competition, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon
Why was all of this missing from the above description of 06 DC results?
And I should note that I agree Il Falco is DC's best top-tier rider, but that Popo has the potential to become one (but is probably not at this level yet). The reason that DC has so many "top ten GT potential" riders, but not so many riders who could potentially win a GT (esp the TdF) is (i) there are not that many riders who are likely to win a GT, (ii) when LA was around, DC/USPS was unable to attract a "top rider" who would want to try and win the TdF (since the sole and unequivocal TdF leader of DC at TdF was LA and since most top riders target the TdF), (iii) DC didn't need a second top rider unless than second top rider could become a meaningful LA domestique for the Tour (and then ride another GT as leader) and that second top rider would be willing to be a domestique for the TdF, and (iv) DC/USPS's GC-potential riders left the team after DC/USPS got them exposure and prominence in the peloton, to become the leaders (or co-leaders) of their own teams. The last point in fact shows how successful DC/USPS has been in producing/developing during the early stage of their career GT potential contenders (not necessarily winners):
Leaving aside Heras (who had already won GTs before coming to DC/USPS), DC produced/nurtured during early stages of the careers of these stage race GC contenders (not necessarily GT winners, but at least meaningful contenders):
Stage races
Leipheimer
Landis
T Hamilton
Classics/non-GC contenders
Boonen
Zabriskie
Hoste (he is reported to leave next year)
Eldrack said:
You missed some obvious races (e.g., Tour de Romandie prologue), and shouldn't have therefore purported to do the comparison -- it was done clearly on an incomplete basis (esp without telling people you don't know what races DC won in each year).
A quick overview is insufficient when you missed *ALL* OF THE DC WINS in 06 and all jerseys!
Also, a comparison that purports to list results (without any caveat your comparison was an overview or was based on your lack of knowledge of all the information and lack of research) is potentially misleading.
musette said:
A statement like the one posted by you above is ironic given that
the content of your posts are neither comparitive, informative or contextual to the sport of cycling.
They are not the only ones... In the Belgium press he was mentioned as the follow-up for Bettini (at Quickstep)...Dead Star said:There's a rumour CSC and Disco want Samuel Sanchez for next year. I'd feel very sorry for him if he went to Disco
I'm not a newbie to the sport though. I have followed it since 1972. {except through the Indurain years } And Bruyneel looks to be as good a DS the ones you mention. He is just beginning and his record as far as GT's goes is as strong as anyones. But it is hard to compare cycling individuals from earlier results to the modern period of now. Cycling has changed. The entire team structure has changed. DC with it's "Lance only" approach is a throwback to the Merckx era and before. Back then riders had to ride more of a complete season to earn a living. Cycling is in the age of specialization. There was far more nationalization back then too. Italian riders were not always welcome to the TDF and vise versa with the Giro.limerickman said:
Something else that happened many times back then that is not discussed today was the "buying of races." Certain teams would back off certain races to allow a competitor a better chance of winning and then get paid back for another race.
Cycling was a closed sport then as far as the nations that competed. Today we have a open to the world attitude towards riders.
Peter Post and Ti-Raleigh was controversial in the beginning. Ti-Raleigh was of course British and fielded a team of riders from abroad.
The job of DS has changed too. In the pre-radio days the team leader was selected for his ability to captain the team as well as his riding ability. Knetemann and Peter Post had a special relationship in this regard. Post relied heavily on Knetemann in this area. Today they have the man back in the cars...... and Motorola radios.... I imagine a few riders carry cell phones so they can order a pizza while riding in the group on slow days....
wolfix said:
Did I refer to you as a newbie to the sport?
No, I didn't refer to you as a newbie to the sport.
wolfix said:
Bruyneels record is not as strong as Echiverria for example.
If you look at Echiverria's palmares over a 7 year peiod - you'd see 5 T'sDF,
2 Giros, 1 Vuelta as well as numerous stage races.
Guimard's record and Saiz record is as strong if not stronger.
wolfix said:
Cycling has changed - for better or worse.
The fact that riders these days can specialise and concentrate on trying to win one event is a big difference.
But this current situation has it's pros and cons.
This doesn't take away from the fact that Bruyneel, at the time of writing cannot match the palmares of Echiverria/Saiz/Guimard either in terms of total
GT wins for a specific period or total GT in entirety.
And I forgot to mention Van Buggenhaut (Merckx manager) palmares will never be matched.
You would feel sorry for a millionaire on a bicycle? You should prioritize your emotions. If you are going to feel sorry for something today feel sorry for Arsenal.Dead Star said:There's a rumour CSC and Disco want Samuel Sanchez for next year. I'd feel very sorry for him if he went to Disco
-Mike
musette said:I don't disagree that DC has had a better early season than last year, but you are not counting all of the relevant races in 06 (and also not in 05, but I'll use 06 as an illustration of the flaws in the above list). Here are some additional wins and jerseys (not even just placements) in 06:
Tour de Romandie, Prologue, Savoldelli (if that counts as early season)
Tour de Georgia, two stages, Danielson and Popo
Tour de Gerogia, Mountain jersey, McCartney
Tour de Georgia, Best Young Rider jersey, Brajkovich
Tour de California, two stages, Hincapie
Three Days of De Panne, Hoste
Two stages of Three Days of De Panne, Hoste
Team competition, Tirreno-Adriatico
Vuelta a Castilla y Leon, 1 stage, Popo
KOM, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon, Beltran
Team competition, Vuelta a Castilla y Leon
Why was all of this missing from the above description of 06 DC results?
And I should note that I agree Il Falco is DC's best top-tier rider, but that Popo has the potential to become one (but is probably not at this level yet). The reason that DC has so many "top ten GT potential" riders, but not so many riders who could potentially win a GT (esp the TdF) is (i) there are not that many riders who are likely to win a GT, (ii) when LA was around, DC/USPS was unable to attract a "top rider" who would want to try and win the TdF (since the sole and unequivocal TdF leader of DC at TdF was LA and since most top riders target the TdF), (iii) DC didn't need a second top rider unless than second top rider could become a meaningful LA domestique for the Tour (and then ride another GT as leader) and that second top rider would be willing to be a domestique for the TdF, and (iv) DC/USPS's GC-potential riders left the team after DC/USPS got them exposure and prominence in the peloton, to become the leaders (or co-leaders) of their own teams. The last point in fact shows how successful DC/USPS has been in producing/developing during the early stage of their career GT potential contenders (not necessarily winners):
Leaving aside Heras (who had already won GTs before coming to DC/USPS), DC produced/nurtured during early stages of the careers of these stage race GC contenders (not necessarily GT winners, but at least meaningful contenders):
Stage races
Leipheimer
Landis
T Hamilton
Classics/non-GC contenders
Boonen
Zabriskie
Hoste (he is reported to leave next year)
I hate to burst your bubble but stage racing in the US is probably less relevant to world of cycling than stage racing in Australia.
mitosis said:
Don't do yourselves down.
The Tour Down Under is as strong, if not stronger, than the Tour of Georgia.
quil said:You would feel sorry for a millionaire on a bicycle? You should prioritize your emotions. If you are going to feel sorry for something today feel sorry for Arsenal.
-Mike
NOt much point being rich and unhappy.
Speaking of rich you can't go past top footballers.
Arsenal's goalie should have been left on and carded and the goal would have stood. But they may have been beaten more convincingly.
Despite the send off it was a pretty entertaining game of football.
Commiserations if you are an Arsenal supporter. I'm at work now and I have a very disappointed colleague.
mitosis said:
It was a good game of football - as a Spurs fan, I was actually supporting Arsenal tonight.
And I agree, Lehmann should have remained on the pitch because Barcelona scored anyway depsite his foul.
Suppose I'd better get back on topic!
Neither race is a strong race. Both races are for the nationals of that country and the other teams that show up are there for other purposes. Certain teams are obligated to show at those races. Europe is the only place where strong races are held. [Except track racing} And there the US, GB, and the Aussies can claim some superiority.mitosis said:
Well said. There is Continental Europe and then there is everyone else.wolfix said:
The TDU, TdG and ToC are what they are; outstanding prep races for the classics and GT's. We may never see successful GT caliber stage races in the US, Aus or the rest of the world for that matter. None of the elite racers would want to challenge what the Rocky's and the Sierra's could throw at them so early in the season. There would be only so much the teams would be willing to do in January – April.
Besides, who wants to watch Giro when there’s Gun Barrel right around the corner ?
-Mike
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