Discovery in disarray.... ?

[wicklow200]

And who has been good enough to win several races a year? ...... .

Well for someone so dominant in the "greatest" race of them all, someone many fans consider one of the greatest riders ever, you would think it would have been Armstrong who was showing the way.

So the answer is no-one. But perhaps thats because the spotlight has been hogged by the Tour to the detriment of all other races since the Lance era. Other teams and riders felt they needed to do what Lance did and concentrate on the big one.

Nevertheless I think Basso gave it a damn good shot last year in trying the double of Giro and TdF. The Giro - well he got sick before a key mountain stage. And the Tour - well who was ever going to beat Lance.

One day races are just that. One day races. A tour is far more demanding and takes a rider that is well rounded.

Yes they are so bloody demanding that the average domestique needs "help" just to finish.

Who shows up week after week and races anymore ? JU, Boonen, Basso, who ??? .

Well thats not going to happen again, but in modern day terms, I think Basso does a lot. He raced 50 days of the UCI pro tour last year, not to mention probably another 15-20 days of non UCI pro tour races

Until Basso wins something maybe the credit he is given is way too much. All he has done so far is win one stage and a TT. And the TT is a little deceptive. If it wasn't for the 5th rider of TM's Basso would not have won. .

Nobody is saying he has won the Giro yet. Least of all the modest Basso. Where I differ with you is that you need someone to win 1 title to prove greatness. That is too simplistic. Many cycling fans consider a cyclist great if they have proven their class over their whole career. Riis - one grand tour. Doesn't make him great.

The time trial has shown JU to be a major contender for the TDF. And remember he has won races. Basso has not.

I remember. But you are speaking about Grand Tours I suppose. Yes, he has won the grand total of 2. Its not really the 2 wins that mark him as one of the greats of cycling. Its his consistency over many years which include numerous TdF top 3 placings on GC. But how does it help Ullrich that Basso hasn't won a GT yet?

 

[limerickman]

In this years TDF we are seeing rather weak fields. There is only one rider racing this year who has won the TDF. And JU is in his final years. That is rare that there is not several previous riders who have won the TDF riding in it.
The fact we are talking of a Basso double is proof of that. We are talking of a man who has shown promise but never delivered. And he is not exactly a new rider. He has to be 28 or 29 years old. His history is that of a rider that has not shown greatness.
He is a very good rider. But again, before we shower praise, let him earn it. has he won anything in the past 5 years other then maybe a few stages.

I would dispute that TDF has a weak field. In fact I would go further, i would suggest that the TDF is always a strong field because it's the race which all of the leading riders wish to win.

If you look at the 1996 field, it contained no one who had won the TDF except Indurain.
using your hypothesis, this would mean that
Riis/Ullrich/Jalabert/Zulle/Bugno/Rominger were weak field.

if you consider that a weak field - that's your perogative.

As far as using the words "improved" suggesting he was not a champion , remember that Eddie Merxck would not have won hardly anything if it wasn't for the dope. We know he cheated. Everyone glorifies Eddy but he was a cheat. He is not a champion. He would have been banned before 90% of his victories were acheived with todays rules. Convicted 3 times. Hinault????? Remember what the word was about his tendon issues late in his career??? The riders understood that tendon issues generally pointed to drug use. Fignon, Delagado, Riis.... the list goes on .... and nobody questions as to why Indurain could win the TDF so easily , but then the list of DNF's at the Vuelta behind his name sure look funny.
The difference is that LA is American. Dope was never an issue before. And the excuse that LA is attacked because he claimed he was dope free in his book does not hold water. He was attacked first and he responded.

This smacks of revisionism.

Armstrong tried to claim that his "improvement" was down to cancer treatment, losing weight etc.
The journalists who asked the questions - were journalists who had seen both pre and post cancer versions.

The improvement in results was astonishing - the Mini became a Ferrari.

Armstrong by trying to proclaim that he never doped painted himself in to a corner over this entire issue.
I don't believe that the issue of nationality has anything got to do with it.
I think his problem was that he was so evidently off the pace in 1993-1996 GT races, that his 1999 result appeared to be implausible.
Especially when he said that his 1999 was based on not doping.

As regards Indurain - I pointed out to you that Indurains palmares showed consistent progress.
Indurain didn't suddenly "improve" - his progress between 1987-1990 stands up to a higher level of scrutiny than Armstrong's early career.
Personally I don't know if Indurain doped.

 

[whiteboytrash]

This is the shite that DC fans put forward WHEN the current team is failing.. The Lance era is over and the best rider on the circuit is now Basso, period. Valverde is a close second but there is no DC rider at this point in the season that even comes close. So boys forget the Lance era because it’s over. Basso is the No.1, Valverde is a close second and Boonen is 3rd.

If DC wanted to be winning races in 2006 and beyond then they would have fostered younger talent or bought Cuengo/Vino or someone worth something around 3 years ago... it will take several years for DC build back to a complete team. The only raced 3 weeks a year and now have to learn how to do it for 34 weeks per year.

The arrogance that DC showed in not wanting Vino because they thought they'd sign Basso or that Hincapie could win the Tour just shows how far fetched and stupid the management at DC is.



3 riders in the top 10 ? Who cares.. when it counted nobody was there for Il Falco... CSC has 1 rider in the top 10 and he is winning and that is the only thing that matters.... CSC have another rider who rode the entire mountain on Sunday at 42km per hour then dropped off with 4km to go... you don't want 4 riders in the top 10.. you want riders busting a gut for their leader then finishing 6 minutes back... that’s the difference. A champion team will always beat a team of champions. Never forget that. CSC are a champion team.

Well for someone so dominant in the "greatest" race of them all, someone many fans consider one of the greatest riders ever, you would think it would have been Armstrong who was showing the way.

So the answer is no-one. But perhaps thats because the spotlight has been hogged by the Tour to the detriment of all other races since the Lance era. Other teams and riders felt they needed to do what Lance did and concentrate on the big one.

Nevertheless I think Basso gave it a damn good shot last year in trying the double of Giro and TdF. The Giro - well he got sick before a key mountain stage. And the Tour - well who was ever going to beat Lance.



Yes they are so bloody demanding that the average domestique needs "help" just to finish.


Well thats not going to happen again, but in modern day terms, I think Basso does a lot. He raced 50 days of the UCI pro tour last year, not to mention probably another 15-20 days of non UCI pro tour races


Nobody is saying he has won the Giro yet. Least of all the modest Basso. Where I differ with you is that you need someone to win 1 title to prove greatness. That is too simplistic. Many cycling fans consider a cyclist great if they have proven their class over their whole career. Riis - one grand tour. Doesn't make him great.


I remember. But you are speaking about Grand Tours I suppose. Yes, he has won the grand total of 2. Its not really the 2 wins that mark him as one of the greats of cycling. Its his consistency over many years which include numerous TdF top 3 placings on GC. But how does it help Ullrich that Basso hasn't won a GT yet?

 

[Dead Star]

As far as using the words "improved" suggesting he was not a champion , remember that Eddie Merxck would not have won hardly anything if it wasn't for the dope. We know he cheated. Everyone glorifies Eddy but he was a cheat. He is not a champion. He would have been banned before 90% of his victories were acheived with todays rules.

jeez, doesn't this border on Libel? I'd be careful with what you type, for a French ex-junior that I know told me that when someone on a French forum accused Carl Naibo (AG2R rider) of doping, Naibo came across it and had his lawyers onto the aforementioned forumer .

 

[wolfix]

If DC wanted to be winning races in 2006 and beyond then they would have fostered younger talent or bought Cuengo/Vino or someone worth something around 3 years ago... it will take several years for DC build back to a complete team. The only raced 3 weeks a year and now have to learn how to do it for 34 weeks per year.

Your right. They only raced for 3 weeks. They were so much better then all the other teams they simply rode the Giro as a training ride and still won.

The arrogance that DC showed in not wanting Vino because they thought they'd sign Basso or that Hincapie could win the Tour just shows how far fetched and stupid the management at DC is.

Stupid mangagement? They almost won half the GT's in 7 years and they are stupid??

A champion team will always beat a team of champions. Never forget that. CSC are a champion team.

A champion team with zero victories.....Without Lance , that is all that cycling has to look forward to in the GT's.... Riders who are 2nd tier riders. CSC gets the scraps this year that Lance has left behind. The winner this year will always wonder if his victory was granted to him by Lance with his retirement. I actually feel sorry for Basso. he has nothing to win. If JU wins , then the critics will say Basso couldn't beat an out of shape has been. If he wins, they will say because LA was not there.

 

[limerickman]

Your right. They only raced for 3 weeks. They were so much better then all the other teams they simply rode the Giro as a training ride and still won.

Sean Yates stated that DC team at the 2005 Giro was weak.
Yates is a DC employee at last reckoning.

But you know more than a DC employee, i take it?

Stupid mangagement? They almost won half the GT's in 7 years and they are stupid??

There are three GT's per year.

 

[wolfix]

Sean Yates stated that DC team at the 2005 Giro was weak.
Yates is a DC employee at last reckoning.

But you know more than a DC employee, i take it?

Exactly.... But they still won. The DC team was weak as compared to whom? The other teams or in comparision to the DC TDFteam? How weak can a team be if it wins? And if it is weak, and still wins, what does that say for the other teams?

There are three GT's per year.

Yes.... So there was total of 21 GT's . DC won 8 of them ...38%. Not half, but close.

 

[wolfix]

jeez, doesn't this border on Libel? I'd be careful with what you type, for a French ex-junior that I know told me that when someone on a French forum accused Carl Naibo (AG2R rider) of doping, Naibo came across it and had his lawyers onto the aforementioned forumer .

Libel???? It is on record. He was suspended. Remember Eddy in tears at the Giro when they disqualified him???? Study cycling history. Dope was part of it. A major part of it.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Sean Yates stated that DC team at the 2005 Giro was weak.
Yates is a DC employee at last reckoning.

Yates was also employed by CSC... he resigned claiming that their training methods were stupid... he thought the army camp was ridiculous.... he who laughs last, laughs loudest... Yates… what a fool.

 

[whiteboytrash]

You have proven my point... I'm talking about present day management and their stupidity about not planning for the future... they were very smart in the past with Lance and that’s why they won 7 Tours but not anymore... scraps or no scraps a Giro is a Giro and a Tour is a Tour and its a hell of lot more than DC can ever hope to achieve this year and probably for the next 5....



WBT out.

Your right. They only raced for 3 weeks. They were so much better then all the other teams they simply rode the Giro as a training ride and still won.

Stupid mangagement? They almost won half the GT's in 7 years and they are stupid??

A champion team with zero victories.....Without Lance , that is all that cycling has to look forward to in the GT's.... Riders who are 2nd tier riders. CSC gets the scraps this year that Lance has left behind. The winner this year will always wonder if his victory was granted to him by Lance with his retirement. I actually feel sorry for Basso. he has nothing to win. If JU wins , then the critics will say Basso couldn't beat an out of shape has been. If he wins, they will say because LA was not there.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Basso is far and away the best grand tour cyclist at the moment.

I wouldn't bet on that... Yes he is very strong but the Giro has a long way to go and at the TdF he will face a few other strong riders (Valverde, Ullrich, Menchov & others)...

 

[bobke]

Sean Yates stated that DC team at the 2005 Giro was weak.
Yates is a DC employee at last reckoning.

But you know more than a DC employee, i take it?





There are three GT's per year.

What's half of 21?

7 tours de france
2 vueltas
1 giro

thats close, no?

 

[thebluetrain]

What's half of 21?

?

13km,

 

[wolfix]

I think Discovery only had one Spanish Tour win. bt as the critics point out that Discovery did not have good management. But CSC does. So far the camps of CSC really haven't achieved much. If Riis would have wanted his boys to bond, then he should have taken them to a bar and bought them frosties.

 

[musette]

Yes.... So there was total of 21 GT's . DC won 8 of them ...38%. Not half, but close.

But it should be noted that DC/USPS did not enter into Giros during the seven years except for last year. So the percentage of GTs that DC/USPS contested (i.e., participated in) that were won is much higher than nine (7 TdFs, only 1 Veulta won by Heras under USPS team affiliation, 1 Giro won by Savoldelli) out of 21. DC won more than 50% of all Grand Tours that it started in during this seven-year period.

I don't know if they contested all Vueltas during this period.

 

[musette]

OK. I have done the research.

USPS did not start the Vuelta in 2000.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/vuelta00/vuelta00main.shtml#start

Therefore, the Grand Tours started by USPS/DC from 1999 through 2005 (seven years) were:

7 Tour de Frances
6 Vueltas (excluding 2000)
1 Giro (2005 only with Savoldelli)
Total of 14 Grand Tours started in seven years

Won
7 Tour de Frances
1 Vuelta
1 Giro
Total of 9 Grand Tours won in seven years
Winning Percentage of Grand Tours attempted = 64.3%


In other words, USPS/DC won more than 2/3 (63.3%) of the Grand Tours they started/attempted during this seven year span.

That's even before we get to other stunning achievements like:

Seven Tour de Frances
Seven CONSECUTIVE Tour de Frances
Through 2005, a 100% lifetime winning percentage for TdFs for Bruyneel as DS
Won first Giro attempted

 

[wolfix]

OK. I have done the research.

USPS did not start the Vuelta in 2000.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/vuelta00/vuelta00main.shtml#start

Therefore, the Grand Tours started by USPS/DC from 1999 through 2005 (seven years) were:

7 Tour de Frances
6 Vueltas (excluding 2000)
1 Giro (2005 only with Savoldelli)
Total of 14 Grand Tours started in seven years

Won
7 Tour de Frances
1 Vuelta
1 Giro
Total of 9 Grand Tours won in seven years
Winning Percentage of Grand Tours attempted = 64.3%


In other words, USPS/DC won more than 2/3 (63.3%) of the Grand Tours they started/attempted during this seven year span.

That's even before we get to other stunning achievements like:

Seven Tour de Frances
Seven CONSECUTIVE Tour de Frances
Through 2005, a 100% lifetime winning percentage for TdFs for Bruyneel as DS
Won first Giro attempted

With a record like that a person could almost assume that the DC team the past 7 years might have been the most dominant GT team of all time. Bruyneel would look to be a very good DS. After thinking about that record, I am starting to see and understand the animosity projected towards DC. I have a feeling that Bruyneel will have another rider winning very soon , even if DC drops it's sposorship.
They sure seem to have been in a class of their own. And even this year they have the look of a very good team. Savoldelli is a very good rider. He has won several GT's. Danielson is still learning. Like Basso is , Danielson still is a project.
Interesting isn't it......

 

[thebluetrain]

LOL, I cant wait for the breakdown of this one.

OK. I have done the research.

USPS did not start the Vuelta in 2000.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/vuelta00/vuelta00main.shtml#start

Therefore, the Grand Tours started by USPS/DC from 1999 through 2005 (seven years) were:

7 Tour de Frances
6 Vueltas (excluding 2000)
1 Giro (2005 only with Savoldelli)
Total of 14 Grand Tours started in seven years

Won
7 Tour de Frances
1 Vuelta
1 Giro
Total of 9 Grand Tours won in seven years
Winning Percentage of Grand Tours attempted = 64.3%


In other words, USPS/DC won more than 2/3 (63.3%) of the Grand Tours they started/attempted during this seven year span.

That's even before we get to other stunning achievements like:

Seven Tour de Frances
Seven CONSECUTIVE Tour de Frances
Through 2005, a 100% lifetime winning percentage for TdFs for Bruyneel as DS
Won first Giro attempted

 

[thebluetrain]

, even if DC drops it's sposorship.
......

It will be interesting to see if Discovery Channel drops it sponsorship next year.

 

[musette]

LA said during his "retirement" conference in 2005 before the Tour de Georgia: “In my view Johan Bruyneel is the premier sports director [I think he means cycling DS] of all time. He's directed seven Tours [TdFs] and won seven, and I don't know anyone else that can claim that record. He is the guy that came along and believed in me in 1998, and not only said that I could do it, but then told me how to do it.”

I agree.