Discovery in disarray.... ?

[musette]

It will be interesting to see if Discovery Channel drops it sponsorship next year.

thebluetrain-- The other poster who said DC's sponsorship could be "drop[ped]... next year" is right only if he suggests that the first year that the sponsorship can be dropped in 2008. DC's sponsorship was for three years, starting in 2005. It lasts through the end of 2007.

 

[wolfix]

It runs through 2007 ??? ..... Good. But Bruyneel will be hot propety and anothe sponsor will not be difficult to pick up.

 

[musette]

Double post eliminated -- Sorry about this

 

[musette]

I think DC is likely to continue sponsorship, although Bruyneel has to come up with some non-embarassing results this year and in 2007. They have sponsorship of some sort of US junior team or something like that, and also began to sponsor the Tour de Georgia this year.

 

[mitosis]

But it should be noted that DC/USPS did not enter into Giros during the seven years except for last year. So the percentage of GTs that DC/USPS contested (i.e., participated in) that were won is much higher than nine (7 TdFs, only 1 Veulta won by Heras under USPS team affiliation, 1 Giro won by Savoldelli) out of 21. DC won more than 50% of all Grand Tours that it started in during this seven-year period.

I don't know if they contested all Vueltas during this period.

And why stop at the races they actually contested. If you look at their record in races where they won it would be ... now lets see ... ah ... 100%!

They really are the most successful team ever!

 

[musette]

I'm not saying the only measure is winning percentage based on wins divided by contested Grand Tours. I'm saying it's a very significant measure -- If not the only significant, then at a minimum one of the two most significant meatures.

Even 9 out of a total of 21 Grand Tours is 42.8% of ALL Grand Tours (including ones USPS/DC chose not to participate in) during those seven years!

 

[patch70]

In other words, USPS/DC won more than 2/3 (63.3%) of the Grand Tours they started/attempted during this seven year span.

I am guessing maths is not your strong subject.
2/3 is 66.666666667%, not 63.3%.

 

[cyclingheroes]

I'm not saying the only measure is winning percentage based on wins divided by contested Grand Tours. I'm saying it's a very significant measure -- If not the only significant, then at a minimum one of the two most significant meatures.

Even 9 out of a total of 21 Grand Tours is 42.8% of ALL Grand Tours (including ones USPS/DC chose not to participate in) during those seven years!

Well it won't be 42.8% after this season anymore,

By the way: Indurain wasn't bad he had over 66% in the seasons he won the double (Giro and TdF), i mean as a rider not as a team. Pantani had over 66% Grand tour wins in 1998. Lance never had over 66% in one year, does that makes Pantani a better rider???

Come on this % stuff is a joke, you can start statistics, but statistics are easy too manipulate, if you want i make another statistic about Disco, no problem. I did statistics for years and always knew what would come out before i even started...

 

[musette]

The other poster who pointed out my maths error is right about the maths only with respect to the error, but 60%+ of Grand Tours that were attempted is remarkable. Even 40%+ of Grand Tours that existed that were won is remarkable.

How many GT ha s Riis won as a DS? Zero at this point. Even if Basso were to do the double this year (a big "if"), Riis would only have 2 GTs as a DS -- 7 fewer than Bruyneel. 7, As in even if CSC won 2 Grand Tours a year (unless you think Sastre can win the Vuelta too), it would take them -- tellingly -- 5 years in total to match or exceed the Bruyneel 9. And we all know Basso ain't going to win seven Tour de Frances in a row. So Riis will never match Bruyneel in the TdF -- the most important race of the calendar -- with respect to seven consecutive TdFs as DS. That's Riis ain't Bruyneel and Basso ain't LA.

 

[limerickman]

OK. I have done the research.

USPS did not start the Vuelta in 2000.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/aug00/vuelta00/vuelta00main.shtml#start

Therefore, the Grand Tours started by USPS/DC from 1999 through 2005 (seven years) were:

7 Tour de Frances
6 Vueltas (excluding 2000)
1 Giro (2005 only with Savoldelli)
Total of 14 Grand Tours started in seven years

Won
7 Tour de Frances
1 Vuelta
1 Giro
Total of 9 Grand Tours won in seven years
Winning Percentage of Grand Tours attempted = 64.3%


In other words, USPS/DC won more than 2/3 (63.3%) of the Grand Tours they started/attempted during this seven year span.

That's even before we get to other stunning achievements like:

Seven Tour de Frances
Seven CONSECUTIVE Tour de Frances
Through 2005, a 100% lifetime winning percentage for TdFs for Bruyneel as DS
Won first Giro attempted

The statement was made : They almost won half the GT's in 7 years

There were 21 GT's in the 7 year period.
USPS/DC won 7 T'sDF, 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta : that makes 9 wins in 21 GT's.

Whether USPS/DC entered all GT's in the seven year period is not the issue.
The statement said that USPS/DC won half of all GT's in 7 years.

Conversely it could be argued that if they did enter all 21 GT's in that period, they may well have jeporadised the record that they did subsequently achieve

 

[limerickman]

LA said during his "retirement" conference in 2005 before the Tour de Georgia: “In my view Johan Bruyneel is the premier sports director [I think he means cycling DS] of all time. He's directed seven Tours [TdFs] and won seven, and I don't know anyone else that can claim that record. He is the guy that came along and believed in me in 1998, and not only said that I could do it, but then told me how to do it.”

I agree.

Guimard, Saiz, Echivarria's "palmares" a more plentiful than Bruyneel's.
These guys were managers prior to 1999.

And if we're to delve further in to pre 1999, I think Meigne's record and many others would swamp Bruyneel's recrod too.

That's the problem with newbie's like you - you're not a fan of the sport.
You're a troll.

 

[limerickman]

Well it won't be 42.8% after this season anymore,

By the way: Indurain wasn't bad he had over 66% in the seasons he won the double (Giro and TdF), i mean as a rider not as a team. Pantani had over 66% Grand tour wins in 1998. Lance never had over 66% in one year, does that makes Pantani a better rider???

Come on this % stuff is a joke, you can start statistics, but statistics are easy too manipulate, if you want i make another statistic about Disco, no problem. I did statistics for years and always knew what would come out before i even started...

Ok - nice diversionary tactic to try to change the subject here, Musette.

Let's get back on subject.

So it looks, at the time of writing that Leif Hoste two second places at RVV and P-R are still the highlight in what has been a disappointing season for DC
so far.
Are we agreed?

 

[cyclingheroes]

Guimard, Saiz, Echivarria's "palmares" a more plentiful than Bruyneel's.
These guys were managers prior to 1999.

And if we're to delve further in to pre 1999, I think Meigne's record and many others would swamp Bruyneel's recrod too.

That's the problem with newbie's like you - you're not a fan of the sport.
You're a troll.

What to think of Peter Post (from the 1970's Raleigh team with riders like Jan Raas, Gerrie Kneteman and later Joop Zoetemelk) and Lefevre who both won lots of classics as a DS. Cycling is more than the Grand tours.

 

[limerickman]

What to think of Peter Post (from the 1970's Raleigh team with riders like Jan Raas, Gerrie Kneteman and later Joop Zoetemelk) and Lefevre who both won lots of classics as a DS. Cycling is more than the Grand tours.

Peter Post, of course was a superb DS.
Lefevre's record is up there.
Giancarlo Ferretti's too.
Jean De Gribaldly
Roger Legeay.

 

[Eldrack]

Ok - nice diversionary tactic to try to change the subject here, Musette.

Let's get back on subject.

So it looks, at the time of writing that Leif Hoste two second places at RVV and P-R are still the highlight in what has been a disappointing season for DC
so far.
Are we agreed?

To analyse DC's early season compared to last year:

05:

6th Tirreno Adriatico GC (GH)

7th Tour of Flanders (GH)

2nd Paris Roubaix (GH)

8th Tour of Romandie GC (Beltran)



06:

6th and 9th Paris Nice GC (Azevedo, Rubiera)

4th, 8th, 10th Tirreno Adriatico GC (Savoldelli, GH, Danielson)

2nd, 3rd Tour of Flanders (LH, GH)

10th, Vuelta a Pais Vasco (Azevedo)

5th, Gent Wevelgem (GH)


Conclusion: Compared to last year DC have had a better early season, results prove that. But lets face it, DC never have a good early season, they aren't really that great at riding the classics and don't concentrate on the small tours. Whilst they have got some fairly good results they haven't won anything, but then thats totally normal for them.

However, considering they don't have an almost certain win in the TdF on the books for this year they should damn well be trying a bit harder to grab some wins early on, looks like they've at least given it a shot but I think we will have to wait until the end of the season to see how well they have done overall.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Peter Post, of course was a superb DS.
Lefevre's record is up there.
Giancarlo Ferretti's too.
Jean De Gribaldly
Roger Legeay.

Jean De Gibraldy, the legend! I remember Steven Rooks went to Gibraldy and everybody in the Netherlands (where i was living at that time) thought his carreer was over. De Gibraldy builded him up again and his biggest years where yet to come. He won L-B-L with De Gibraldy and went later to PDM. Steven still speaks a lot about his time with De Gibraldi

 

[micron]

I'm sure Sean Yates would have something to say about his Giro win being accredited to Bruyneel....

Of course, Riis has won the TdF as a rider, which is more than Bruyneel ever achieved

 

[limerickman]

To analyse DC's early season compared to last year:

05:

6th Tirreno Adriatico GC (GH)

7th Tour of Flanders (GH)

2nd Paris Roubaix (GH)

8th Tour of Romandie GC (Beltran)



06:

6th and 9th Paris Nice GC (Azevedo, Rubiera)

4th, 8th, 10th Tirreno Adriatico GC (Savoldelli, GH, Danielson)

2nd, 3rd Tour of Flanders (LH, GH)

10th, Vuelta a Pais Vasco (Azevedo)

5th, Gent Wevelgem (GH)


Conclusion: Compared to last year DC have had a better early season, results prove that. But lets face it, DC never have a good early season, they aren't really that great at riding the classics and don't concentrate on the small tours. Whilst they have got some fairly good results they haven't won anything, but then thats totally normal for them.

However, considering they don't have an almost certain win in the TdF on the books for this year they should damn well be trying a bit harder to grab some wins early on, looks like they've at least given it a shot but I think we will have to wait until the end of the season to see how well they have done overall.

Sensible post.

The fact is that DC have to alter their strategy.
They were basically a one race team - backing one rider - for the period 1999-2005.

The fact that DC knew that this strategy would have to change since late July 2005, I am suprised that in 2006, we have seen mixed messages of support for Savoldelli at the 2006 Giro, the open criticism of Demol at RVV 2006, the ongoing bile about what Leif Hoste (rightly) did at RVV and P-R in 2006.

DC are in a stste of flux at present.
I still wager that Leif Hoste's results at RVV and P-R will be the highlight of DC's 2006 season.
I say this because it's apparent that things at DC are, to be put charitably,
uncertain.

 

[limerickman]

Jean De Gibraldy, the legend! I remember Steven Rooks went to Gibraldy and everybody in the Netherlands (where i was living at that time) thought his carreer was over. De Gibraldy builded him up again and his biggest years where yet to come. He won L-B-L with De Gibraldy and went later to PDM. Steven still speaks a lot about his time with De Gibraldi

DeGri was a great manager - and he made a guys like Rooks, Kelly even better riders through his tactical knowledge.
He controlled the Flandria team with great insight and knowledge.

 

[Eldrack]

I think DC have a lot of good riders (GH, Azevedo, Popo, Danielson, Rubiera, Beltran) who are all very strong, but don't quite make the cut that is necessary to make the podium in a grand tour. I think any of these riders, can make top 10 placings in GT's, even with not that much support, they've all done it before (except GH). The only top tier rider they have is Savoldelli, so they better get behind him as strongly as possible. However he isn't the certain winner that Lance was. I think they will have to bide their time this year and then back Savoldelli and Popo next year.

As for further results this year, DC can podium at the Giro and maybe top 5 at the TdF, but mainly they will be going on grand tour stage wins I think.