Discovery in disarray.... ?

[whiteboytrash]

Phooey ! "The only team (DC) with 2 riders in the top 9 places" - What sort of stat is that ? How about T-Mobile is the only team with 4 riders in the top 27 ! It doesn't mean anything ! You guys are always looking for the most inane reason why DC are still a competitive team. The fact remains that if DC went into the Giro with Salvodelli as sole leader and not this double-bubble Salvodelli for leader but maybe Dainelson if Salvodelli falters scenario they would have been much better off. All they are left with now are two mid-range riders who had to pace each other up the first mountain climb of the Giro some 2.20" off the pace. At this rate the both of them will finish over 15 minutes behind Basso. The climb was steep but it not as hard as some of the stages that are to come. DC are in loads of trouble.

DC are second rate and this thread is not about T-Mobile and Jan or CSC its about how **** DC have become. They were a one card trick and the team failed to foster new talent during the Armstrong years. Well done to them for winning 7 Tours but that is in the past and now they have nothing. Nothing at all. One only needs to look at CSC on how to foster riders, make them feel part of a team and win big races. It’s scary to think that CSC could end July with the Paris-Roubaix, Amstel-Gold Race, The Giro and the Tour de France under their belt. All of that with ¾ of the budget that DC have. With that sort of season that beats 7 Tours anyday !

One word. Disarray.

Good to have you back wbt...... If it wasn't for you , I would have never paid any attention to DC. I looked at the GC to see the disarray that DC was in and I realized that they are are the only team with 2 riders in the top 9 places. But you see it as "as second rate team who don't deserve there ProTour status." Interesting. What are your definitions of a team that deserves ProTour status?

Remember Riis has never managed a team that has won a GT...So that would put him as "second rate manager who does not deserve a ProTou team."

And what about TM???? Everyone talks as if Jan is the most talented rider in the peleton, but he hasn't won anything in 7 years as far as GT's go. Maybe TM is a " second rate team who don't deserve their ProTour status." [Zabel aside, he is the one shining rider that TM has not screwed up]

Now I believe all these teams do not have a second rate status. But I would like you to point out why DC as the previous champion is a "second rate team when they have riders in the top 10.

 

[thebluetrain]

You guys and your text updates ! I watched the race.. live ! I know what happened..... you're relying on someone typing into a keyboard on what’s happening... I watching it with my own eyes ! Who do you trust..... ?

Regardless if it was 13km or 7km... Savoldelli was beaten like a read-haired step child.... he had nothing... he was rocking on bike like a drunk... he was all over the road.... this was in stark contrast to the cool and smooth Basso...

LOL, I only used the text update to prove you wrong. the knife cut deep? Assumptions and Exaggerations are not two of your best qualities. Although I didnt see stage 8 live(I did see the replay) I have been watching the Giro live. Of course i can hear it now. "The live coverage I am watching is not nearly as live as the coverage you are watching".

 

[rule62]

So PS was suffering from allergy issues due to all of the pollen in the air yesterday, according to Sean Yates. He indicates that it is an issue that Paulo can struggle with during certain times of the year riding in this region of Italy.

He also said that TD is there to ride in support of PS so he was doing his job yesterday pacing him back up to the finish after he cracked.

 

[whiteboytrash]

OMG ! First its the aero bars and safety first policy now Il Falco has hay fever ! Surely if he known he gets hay fever he would have taken legal medication for it ? or does he just take the chance and risk a GT win because he would prefer to sneeze than prepare properly for a tough stage ?

Sean Yates is more deluded than I thought. Savodelli crumbled like a cheap Danish pasty... he was no good. The truth hurts and the knife cuts very deep.

I'm starting a new thread called DC Top 10 excuses.. it will start like this:

1. Safety above a stage win.
2. Hay fever.
3. The rider wasn't dropped as it was strategy for him to drop back.
4. We didn’t want to win today.

So PS was suffering from allergy issues due to all of the pollen in the air yesterday, according to Sean Yates. He indicates that it is an issue that Paulo can struggle with during certain times of the year riding in this region of Italy.

He also said that TD is there to ride in support of PS so he was doing his job yesterday pacing him back up to the finish after he cracked.

 

[micron]

Nobody disputes that Danielson did his job in pacing Savoldelli on the climb - all anybody disputes is the assumption that Danielson somehow 'had a good day' and 'mixed it with the best climbers' when Danielson dropped off the back as soon as the hammer went down.

As for text updates - hardly totally accurate - for example, ES has Savoldelli off the back at 7kms and in the bunch at 6kms - even though he's 40" back

Unfortunately, both cyclingnews and ES are too concerned with smart quips, background colour and of course following every pedal stroke of the Discovery team to be entirely accurate - if you want the bare bones that are accurate, then you should follow on the official site

 

[cPritch67]

I think, with the benefit of hindsight, that Salvoldelli has had two bad days now.

He needs to have a good day real soon now.

Is it too early to call a Basso double?

Edit: Basso is not like Armstrong. Basso is like Pantani. Pantani was leaving trails of struggling riders on the sides of mountains long before LA was reborn.

It is WAY to early to call a Basso double. He still has to win his first Grand Tour. Basso is everywhere and in my opinion is getting a lot of credit that he hasn't earned yet. Once he puts one GT under his belt, then I can accept seeing him everywhere. For now, I see it as marketing hype.
As for his ride yesterday, he looked great and destroyed his competition, but like he stated, there is still a long way to go to get to Milan and a lot can happen in the next two weeks, especially with the parcours of the final week.
If and when he puts this GT in his palmares, then a double may be a possibility.

 

[thebluetrain]

Nobody disputes that Danielson did his job in pacing Savoldelli on the climb - all anybody disputes is the assumption that Danielson somehow 'had a good day' and 'mixed it with the best climbers' when Danielson dropped off the back as soon as the hammer went down.

As for text updates - hardly totally accurate - for example, ES has Savoldelli off the back at 7kms and in the bunch at 6kms - even though he's 40" back

Unfortunately, both cyclingnews and ES are too concerned with smart quips, background colour and of course following every pedal stroke of the Discovery team to be entirely accurate - if you want the bare bones that are accurate, then you should follow on the official site

HUH???? This is straight off the Eurosport website. Maybe in Europe 13km=7km, but not where I am from. If I remember right that 40 second lead you are talking about was to Gonchar as he was the first one dropped and Italian tv constantly updated the pink jersey's deficit. Gonchar was dropped at 9km. This is off the cyclingnews site:16:32 CEST 165.5km/5.5km to go
Gonchar is now at 40 seconds. His maglia rosa is definitely gone.
6 km

</IMG>LEAD GROUP INCLUDES: Piepoli, Simoni (Saunier), Di Luca (Liquigas), Basso, Sastre (CSC), Cunego (Lampre), Mazzanti (Panaria), Jose E. Gutierrez (Phonak), Caruso (Liberty), with Rujano (Selle Italia) , Perez Cuapio, and Savoldelli (Discovery) all getting strung out behind....
6 km

</IMG>Marzio Bruseghin was reigned in a while ago, and it's all coming down to the favourites in stage eight, as Paolo Savoldelli continues to suffer, wearing his champion's Bib No. 1, looks like he's riding alone, having lost touch with the leaders, who now have a 40 second lead.
7 km RIDING WITH THE LEADERS: Are Carlos Sastre, Jose E. Gutierrez, Mazzanti and Perez Cuapio.... Piepoli, Rujano... about a group of 11.
7 km

</IMG>SAVOLDELLI LOOKING LIKE HE'S DYING OUT THERE: As Basso is riding with a team-mate, adn CSC have really taken control of this race.... Savoldelli looking like he could be dropped.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Christ ! Is really all worth it ! Get yourself a sat dish and start watching it ! This is like remember numbers from a telephone book.....

HUH???? This is straight off the Eurosport website. Maybe in Europe 13km=7km, but not where I am from. If I remember right that 40 second lead you are talking about was to Gonchar as he was the first one dropped and Italian tv constantly updated the pink jersey's deficit. Gonchar was dropped at 9km.
6 km

</IMG>LEAD GROUP INCLUDES: Piepoli, Simoni (Saunier), Di Luca (Liquigas), Basso, Sastre (CSC), Cunego (Lampre), Mazzanti (Panaria), Jose E. Gutierrez (Phonak), Caruso (Liberty), with Rujano (Selle Italia) , Perez Cuapio, and Savoldelli (Discovery) all getting strung out behind....
6 km

</IMG>Marzio Bruseghin was reigned in a while ago, and it's all coming down to the favourites in stage eight, as Paolo Savoldelli continues to suffer, wearing his champion's Bib No. 1, looks like he's riding alone, having lost touch with the leaders, who now have a 40 second lead.
7 km RIDING WITH THE LEADERS: Are Carlos Sastre, Jose E. Gutierrez, Mazzanti and Perez Cuapio.... Piepoli, Rujano... about a group of 11.
7 km

</IMG>SAVOLDELLI LOOKING LIKE HE'S DYING OUT THERE: As Basso is riding with a team-mate, adn CSC have really taken control of this race.... Savoldelli looking like he could be dropped.

 

[thebluetrain]

Christ ! Is really all worth it !

Yes it is!

 

[wicklow200]

It is WAY to early to call a Basso double. He still has to win his first Grand Tour. Basso is everywhere and in my opinion is getting a lot of credit that he hasn't earned yet. Once he puts one GT under his belt, then I can accept seeing him everywhere. For now, I see it as marketing hype.
As for his ride yesterday, he looked great and destroyed his competition, but like he stated, there is still a long way to go to get to Milan and a lot can happen in the next two weeks, especially with the parcours of the final week.
If and when he puts this GT in his palmares, then a double may be a possibility.

I love the way some people are taking to questioning Basso's quality. As if not having won a GT somehow means he's a fake. We all know he doesn't have a GT yet. No need to state the bleeding obvious. But for one bad day last year he would surely have won the Giro. And but for a certain Lance Armstrong, either the greatest champion in TdF history, or the greatest fraud, he would also have a Tour de France win.

Basso is far and away the best grand tour cyclist at the moment. And he is tring to win 2 in one year. Something LA wasn't even good enough to do. Basso is a breath of fresh air after the LA years, and it would be great for cycling if he could do the double.

 

[davidbod]

Good to have you back wbt...... If it wasn't for you , I would have never paid any attention to DC. I looked at the GC to see the disarray that DC was in and I realized that they are are the only team with 2 riders in the top 9 places. But you see it as "as second rate team who don't deserve there ProTour status." Interesting. What are your definitions of a team that deserves ProTour status?

Remember Riis has never managed a team that has won a GT...So that would put him as "second rate manager who does not deserve a ProTou team."

And what about TM???? Everyone talks as if Jan is the most talented rider in the peleton, but he hasn't won anything in 7 years as far as GT's go. Maybe TM is a " second rate team who don't deserve their ProTour status." [Zabel aside, he is the one shining rider that TM has not screwed up]

Now I believe all these teams do not have a second rate status. But I would like you to point out why DC as the previous champion is a "second rate team when they have riders in the top 10.

Agreed, If DC are in dissarray they are in good company. As you say only team with 2, wait make that 3 riders in the top 10 sitting in 4th, 9th and 10th. I guess by these standards Lampre with Cunego, T-Mobile with Honchar, Liquigas with Di Luca, Saunier Duval with Simoni and Liberty Seguros with Caruso must also be considered in "dissarray". Doesn't leave many teams "in array" does it. And for Jan at 18 minutes plus back what kind of "dissarray" describes that.

 

[Bike N Ski]

Agreed, If DC are in dissarray they are in good company. As you say only team with 2, wait make that 3 riders in the top 10 sitting in 4th, 9th and 10th. I guess by these standards Lampre with Cunego, T-Mobile with Honchar, Liquigas with Di Luca, Saunier Duval with Simoni and Liberty Seguros with Caruso must also be considered in "dissarray". Doesn't leave many teams "in array" does it. And for Jan at 18 minutes plus back what kind of "dissarray" describes that.

I give you guys credit for the patience you have in trying to explain that a team with 3 riders in the top 10 can hardly be considered in "disarray". I think you'll have better luck getting a 10 year old to solve a calculus problem than getting these guys to grasp the meaning of "disarray". I think the last seven or so years have "dropped" some of these guys into a mental state of "disarry".

 

[cPritch67]

I love the way some people are taking to questioning Basso's quality. As if not having won a GT somehow means he's a fake. We all know he doesn't have a GT yet. No need to state the bleeding obvious. But for one bad day last year he would surely have won the Giro. And but for a certain Lance Armstrong, either the greatest champion in TdF history, or the greatest fraud, he would also have a Tour de France win.

Basso is far and away the best grand tour cyclist at the moment. And he is tring to win 2 in one year. Something LA wasn't even good enough to do. Basso is a breath of fresh air after the LA years, and it would be great for cycling if he could do the double.

No one said he was a fake or not the best GC rider of the moment - and it will be the "moment" if he doesn't hold onto win - ala last year.

No doubt, the guy is a good rider, but at this point you give him more credit than he's earned. He may fold like a traveling road show in the high mountains next week and lose the Giro, as well as blow his wad in Italy and not win the Tour either. As I stated before, until he wins one, don't bother wasting your breath on the double. Will you still consider him the greatest Grand Tour cyclist of the moment if he doesn't win either (Giro or Tour)?


Also, as a part of cycling, I am not so convinced it would be great for the sport if he did double.

 

[mitosis]

No one said he was a fake or not the best GC rider of the moment - and it will be the "moment" if he doesn't hold onto win - ala last year.

No doubt, the guy is a good rider, but at this point you give him more credit than he's earned. He may fold like a traveling road show in the high mountains next week and lose the Giro, as well as blow his wad in Italy and not win the Tour either. As I stated before, until he wins one, don't bother wasting your breath on the double. Will you still consider him the greatest Grand Tour cyclist of the moment if he doesn't win either (Giro or Tour)?


Also, as a part of cycling, I am not so convinced it would be great for the sport if he did double.

Its got to be better than a cycling talent racing once race a year and being hailed as a cycling legend. The great cyclists are those who turn up, week in week out and race. And some of them have been good enough to win several races in a season.

 

[wolfix]

Its got to be better than a cycling talent racing once race a year and being hailed as a cycling legend. The great cyclists are those who turn up, week in week out and race. And some of them have been good enough to win several races in a season.

And who has been good enough to win several races a year? ...... One day races are just that. One day races. A tour is far more demanding and takes a rider that is well rounded. One day races and small training stage races are a lottery choice among a few riders.
Who shows up week after week and races anymore ? JU, Boonen, Basso, who ??? Until Basso wins something maybe the credit he is given is way too much. All he has done so far is win one stage and a TT. And the TT is a little deceptive. If it wasn't for the 5th rider of TM's Basso would not have won. The time trial has shown JU to be a major contender for the TDF. And remember he has won races. Basso has not. Also someone earlier said Lance Armstrong wasn't good enough to win the Giro . What evidence do you have that he couldn't? He beat Basso everytime Basso has been on a bike in the same race. He matched Pantani in the climbs of the TDF. He actually humiliated him on a climb once. If Armstrong would have raced the Giro he had as a good shot as anyone.
Someone also said earlier that DC should get rid of the Spanish riders. I couldn't agrree more. They have a historical reputation for being sandbaggers in theTDF and Giro. The Vuelta is what is important to them.

 

[wicklow200]

Its got to be better than a cycling talent racing once race a year and being hailed as a cycling legend. The great cyclists are those who turn up, week in week out and race. And some of them have been good enough to win several races in a season.

Exactly!

 

[limerickman]

Also someone earlier said Lance Armstrong wasn't good enough to win the Giro . What evidence do you have that he couldn't? He beat Basso everytime Basso has been on a bike in the same race. He matched Pantani in the climbs of the TDF. He actually humiliated him on a climb once. If Armstrong would have raced the Giro he had as a good shot as anyone.
Someone also said earlier that DC should get rid of the Spanish riders. I couldn't agrree more. They have a historical reputation for being sandbaggers in theTDF and Giro. The Vuelta is what is important to them.

Basso to my mind is a throw back to the old days - he's prepared to try to win
several major stage races in the same season.
All cycling fans should welcome this.

Neither JU or LA had the ability or confidence to try this.

As regards LA beating pantani in one climb - I think he did manage to beat him when he "improved".
You should look at the stats from 1994 and 1995 T'sDF to see just how much better a climber Pantani was compared to Armstrong (and every one else for that matter).

 

[wolfix]

Basso to my mind is a throw back to the old days - he's prepared to try to win
several major stage races in the same season.
All cycling fans should welcome this.

Neither JU or LA had the ability or confidence to try this.

As regards LA beating pantani in one climb - I think he did manage to beat him when he "improved".
You should look at the stats from 1994 and 1995 T'sDF to see just how much better a climber Pantani was compared to Armstrong (and every one else for that matter).

Basso is in neither JU's or LA's class. His preparation is flawed because he has not won yet. Armstrong matched Pantani on every climb but one since Pantani won the TDF. And Basso is no Pantani when it comes to climbing. Armstrong has basically matched every climber that has came along. He had the ability to win the Giro. The Giro can be compared to a training race for those who desire to win the TDF unless they are Italian. You have to go back almost 10 years to find a rider that was competitive in the TDF that raced seriously in the Giro. Pantani was one that really tried to win both. And he did.
In this years TDF we are seeing rather weak fields. There is only one rider racing this year who has won the TDF. And JU is in his final years. That is rare that there is not several previous riders who have won the TDF riding in it.
The fact we are talking of a Basso double is proof of that. We are talking of a man who has shown promise but never delivered. And he is not exactly a new rider. He has to be 28 or 29 years old. His history is that of a rider that has not shown greatness.
He is a very good rider. But again, before we shower praise, let him earn it. has he won anything in the past 5 years other then maybe a few stages.

As far as using the words "improved" suggesting he was not a champion , remember that Eddie Merxck would not have won hardly anything if it wasn't for the dope. We know he cheated. Everyone glorifies Eddy but he was a cheat. He is not a champion. He would have been banned before 90% of his victories were acheived with todays rules. Convicted 3 times. Hinault????? Remember what the word was about his tendon issues late in his career??? The riders understood that tendon issues generally pointed to drug use. Fignon, Delagado, Riis.... the list goes on .... and nobody questions as to why Indurain could win the TDF so easily , but then the list of DNF's at the Vuelta behind his name sure look funny.
The difference is that LA is American. Dope was never an issue before. And the excuse that LA is attacked because he claimed he was dope free in his book does not hold water. He was attacked first and he responded.

And always pointing to Armstrongs 1st years and saying he was nothing .... well, the very same thing could be said about Indurain. He had nothing there. Before the excuse was that Indurain was riding as a team rider and not expected to win. Hell, he had a hard time finishing the GT's. The same thing could be said about LA. He came to Europe with an American team that had no background in euro racing. He did not have any proper guidence nor strong team mates. Motorola was nothing but a sideshow compard to the other teams racing.
History wil show LA as the one who won 7 staright TDF's.... What is history going to show for Basso?

 

[mitosis]

And who has been good enough to win several races a year? ...... One day races are just that. One day races. A tour is far more demanding and takes a rider that is well rounded. One day races and small training stage races are a lottery choice among a few riders.

If its such a lottery why do the same names appear as the winners? Valverde, Boonen and a host of other names if you look down the placings are there in the spring classics then they get to work on one or two grand tours.

Also someone earlier said Lance Armstrong wasn't good enough to win the Giro . What evidence do you have that he couldn't? He beat Basso everytime Basso has been on a bike in the same race. He matched Pantani in the climbs of the TDF. He actually humiliated him on a climb once. If Armstrong would have raced the Giro he had as a good shot as anyone.

I have every confidence that the reborn LA would have been good enought to win the Giro - as long as that was the only race he competed in and he was able to keep his team in order. But then I doubt that he could have backed up and won Le Tour in the same year.

Someone also said earlier that DC should get rid of the Spanish riders. I couldn't agrree more. They have a historical reputation for being sandbaggers in theTDF and Giro. The Vuelta is what is important to them.

I don't know enough about the Spanish riders to make a general comment except to say that Miguel Indurain didn't seem to mind having a shot at Le Tour.

And why not get behind a rider like Basso. He doesn't treat some races as training rides. If he doesn't win the Giro it won't be because he didn't have a go.

 

[wolfix]

If its such a lottery why do the same names appear as the winners? Valverde, Boonen and a host of other names if you look down the placings are there in the spring classics then they get to work on one or two grand tours.

Lottery may not be the correct term ..... I'm not diminshing the one day classics, but a rider can win one, then fail the following week. In a GT, when a rider fails in a 21 day race, he usually loses. Boonen for example. He will never contest a Gt. He will win sprinting stages, but he is not a contender. And no rider today is good enough to race all year and win. Zabel was one that attempted this and right now in professional cycling his pamares are second only to JU. Of current riders, they stand alone today. No one comes close. There are stronger riders currently , but lack the palmeres of those 2. No one is in their class overall of the current riders. But even they could not compete a t an elite level all year.
Boonen is a great rider currently. But he has to take part of the year off to prepare for what's important for him. . Cycling is too specialized. Indurain introduced this to professional cycling.

"
"I have every confidence that the reborn LA would have been good enought to win the Giro - as long as that was the only race he competed in and he was able to keep his team in order. But then I doubt that he could have backed up and won Le Tour in the same year."

Why??? Who was strong enough to deny him? He was as strong in the TDf as any rider ever has been. What makes anyone think he could not have done it longer. He retired when he was still better then anyne in cycling as far as the Grand Tours. He also won many other races. He won the worlds, he won Swiss tour and other races.

Cycling has always shown more respect to GT winners then one day riders.

Why not get behind Basso?
I think he is a class rider. But some of the posters here are talking of greatness before he has shown that. Greatness is reserved those that have accomplished that.
Yes, Indurain did attack the tour. But he was Spanish and his riders will support a Spanish riders. But Spanish riders have shown that they are not so willing to back a non-Spanish rider. Read about the Vuelta in which Robert Millar was robbed by this very attitude.
"