Discovery in disarray.... ?

[wolfix]

Danielson said this was his 1st TTT he has ever ridden in. He had difficulty with attaching himself after his pull. I would have thought that Bruyneel would have worked on this. It seemed that they always were so concerned with details like that before when LA was riding.

 

[limerickman]

Yeah Savoldelli is still one of the major players for the overall, but it won't be easy for him since the TTT was one of the stages where he had to win some time...

That's true - today did not help Savoldelli in a number of ways.

1.DC's strategy was obvious from the start, try to gain as much time in the Giro from the earliest possible moment, in order to try to minimise the damage in the mountains.
Savoldelli went out and won the prologue on this basis.
Now that the initial time gain has been pegged back in stage 4, DC will be required to go on the offensive.

2.Savoldelli has a team that has been ambiguous in it's public utterings regarding it's support of him.
The rumour mill has it that Danielson was the favoured rider.
Even if this isn't true, todays TTT result re-enforces the perception that DC
ain't prepared as well as they ought to be.

3.CSC are the team in the peloton to beat. Riis despises DC/Armstrong and I believe that todays result was Riis opening shot in a campaign designed to show which team is the best.
Unfortunately Savoldelli - because he is DC leader at the Giro - could be the ultimate loser in this campaign.

 

[wolfix]

Yeah Savoldelli is still one of the major players for the overall, but it won't be easy for him since the TTT was one of the stages where he had to win some time...

I personally think that the opening TT , the TTT , and all the stages that are not asine climbing stages will not matter. I believe this Giro will be decided on one of those crazy stages where the climbing is next to impossible. The time gaps there will be large among the climbers. We may see a rider that is not a contender pull off a Giro victory or give the favorites a scare.
I think the winner will be a climber that can climb consistently when the road goes steep ...... Personally, I think one of the Columbians , probably Luis Herrera will gain tremendous time when the roads get so steep......

 

[limerickman]

I personally think that the opening TT , the TTT , and all the stages that are not asine climbing stages will not matter. I believe this Giro will be decided on one of those crazy stages where the climbing is next to impossible. The time gaps there will be large among the climbers. We may see a rider that is not a contender pull off a Giro victory or give the favorites a scare.
I think the winner will be a climber that can climb consistently when the road goes steep ...... Personally, I think one of the Columbians , probably Luis Herrera will gain tremendous time when the roads get so steep......

Ivan Parra surely??

The climbs in this years Giro are tougher than last years (and in 2005 they were brutal).
Look what happened last year, Basso got a bad stomach infection before stage 14 and lost 45mins on a tough climbing stage.

Savoldelli is a very very good climber - he's not a super climber as he will
readily admit. So the really steep stuff won't be too his liking.
Basso recovered really well and was able to stay with Rujano during the 2005 steep stuff, as was DiLuca.

 

[wolfix]

3.CSC are the team in the peloton to beat. Riis despises DC/Armstrong and I believe that todays result was Riis opening shot in a campaign designed to show which team is the best.
Unfortunately Savoldelli - because he is DC leader at the Giro - could be the ultimate loser in this campaign.

They have yet to win a GT yet. Of course Ris has despises LA. He despises T-M too..... They both have beaten him again and again ....... Riis has to burning inside ever since Jan was his helper in the TDF and won..... Then Pantani came along, then LA did something Riis will never do , and then last year Basso blew the only chance Riis had a shot at a GT in almost a decade.

This pic shows the anger Riis must feel when he is alone at night.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Ivan Parra surely??

The climbs in this years Giro are tougher than last years (and in 2005 they were brutal).
Look what happened last year, Basso got a bad stomach infection before stage 14 and lost 45mins on a tough climbing stage.

Savoldelli is a very very good climber - he's not a super climber as he will
readily admit. So the really steep stuff won't be too his liking.
Basso recovered really well and was able to stay with Rujano during the 2005 steep stuff, as was DiLuca.

Right, that's exactly the point why Il Falco (or DC, since it was a TTT) had to win today but... he didn't.

 

[limerickman]

They have yet to win a GT yet. Of course Ris has despises LA. He despises T-M too..... They both have beaten him again and again ....... Riis has to burning inside ever since Jan was his helper in the TDF and won..... Then Pantani came along, then LA did something Riis will never do , and then last year Basso blew the only chance Riis had a shot at a GT in almost a decade.

This pic shows the anger Riis must feel when he is alone at night.

Ullrich refers to Riis as "his friend". I don't know if there is antagonism between Riis and TMO (the org), perhaps there is.

But I know that Riis loathes Armstrong. At one point in the TDF in 2004 (i think) CSC car pulled up along side Armstrong, and it was clear that words were exchanged. Riis was pointing his finger at Armstrong.

In the movie "Overcoming", Riis scolds Basso about his performance against Armstrong.
You can see it in his eyes - he loathes LA.

Personally, i wouldn;t like to cross Riis - he seems to be a difficult character.
Remember his throwing his TT bike in the ditch during the 1997 TDF?

 

[wolfix]

After looking at some of the pics of those last week climbs it makes me wonder what the Giro designers were thinking...... I hate when a race is decided on just one day or one particular climb. It makes the rest of the days seem moot.
I am not a fan of TT's of any sort except the opening one that is designed to allow a rider wear yellow on the 1st day. I think the TT's make for defensive riding. The Indurain years were the worst, followed by the LA years..... The only reason that was interesting about the LA years was the controversies that followed him...... Both Indurain and LA had it figured out to get results. And they did. But it was rather boring.
CSC is the best team in the Giro this year. But it would be a shame for them to falter just for a moment and allow someone win the Giro because of one climb. Some of those climbs look like Paris_Roubaix but much steeper. But the difference is that part of Paris-Roubax's charm is that it allows the rough roads to select the winners. The Giro is supposed to about climbing, not rough roads.
I loved the fact that Andy H won the Giro the way he did. That is because I have rode with Andy when he was starting out and was a fan. But was he truly the best rider that year or was he selected as a winner because of the day in the snowstorm ......??????

Maybe Robert Millar???

 

[wolfix]

I think Riis has a burning desire to win that champions have .....look at Hinault, LA, and Lemond..... And many others. I wish I could say that about JU though...The really great champions in sports seem to have a personality that needs to dominate..... That is why I get a kick out of people that attack LA, Michael Jordon,Hinault, Lemond and others....... It really takes a defective personality to want to ride a bike around France or Italy and suffer endlessly to just say you were faster then anyone else. That has to take a toll on a normal human.

And Riis seems to be exactly like LA....Very detailed oriented and a team player. He seems to have that organizational personality just as LA seemed to have. And then to not be able to come up with a rider that could compete with LA..... JU was his only hope.

I read a great book on the mindset of champions......And the book seemed to make the point that champions feared losing more then they wanted to win ...... The book also made the point that champions win for their own reasons, to satisfy them , where others that rarely win , even though as gifted as champions, try to win to satisfy others.

And then until Riis starts putting GT wins together, and he will , he will be compared to Discovery of the 1999-2005 years. Sometimes the people on top cannot win.....

 

[doctorSpoc]

...Basso recovered really well and was able to stay with Rujano during the 2005 steep stuff, as was DiLuca.

NO!! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Basso recoverd really well and won a mountain stage and a TT but... Basso lost 20mins on the queen stage of 2005.. "the really steep stuff" as you say... CSC was out all day working so you know he wanted it...but when Simoni attacked the 1st one out the back was Basso.. i think Basso is really good on the 7-10% even up to 15% stuff, but when you are talking 20+% i don't know if he can handle it... if last year is any indication he can't. 15-20% climbs are Simoni's specialty.. i think DiLuca showed he can handle himself on climbs like that too and of course Rujano.. think Cunego will be able to shine as well... Salvoldelli and Basso are good on Tour de France climbs these climbs in the Giro are a whole other beast though... Basso won that mountain stage afte his recovery since he was 45min down on classification and no one really cared that he was up the road... the real race was going on behind.. winning the TT was pretty impressive though.

 

[lwedge]

NO!! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Basso recoverd really well and won a mountain stage and a TT but... Basso lost 20mins on the queen stage of 2005.. "the really steep stuff" as you say... CSC was out all day working so you know he wanted it...but when Simoni attacked the 1st one out the back was Basso.. i think Basso is really good on the 7-10% even up to 15% stuff, but when you are talking 20+% i don't know if he can handle it... if last year is any indication he can't. 15-20% climbs are Simoni's specialty.. i think DiLuca showed he can handle himself on climbs like that too and of course Rujano.. think Cunego will be able to shine as well... Salvoldelli and Basso are good on Tour de France climbs these climbs in the Giro are a whole other beast though... Basso won that mountain stage afte his recovery since he was 45min down on classification and no one really cared that he was up the road... the real race was going on behind.. winning the TT was pretty impressive though.

You could be right, Salvoldelli was very concerned about the steep hills and his chances. Basso never says anything negative so I don't know how he feels about the grades. Let's see if they can come up with something to hang with the mountain goats.

lw

 

[Eldrack]

The steeper it gets the better the small guys are. On a climb like Sestriere you want to be about 68 - 70 kilos like Basso, Armstrong, Savoldelli and have a massive FTP. The smaller guys tend to get beaten on these climbs as although they are a lot lighter their FTP's are small. There will be a gradient for which Basso and Simoni say are on an equal footing. Below that grade Basso does better, above it Simoni does better. Since Basso and Savoldelli are similar sizes they will struggle in similar ways on the really steep stuff with the stronger one winning out, but they will both be having a hard time compared to the guys who are 8kg lighter, i.e Di Luca, Simoni, Cunego.

Remember in the 2005 Giro, stage 11 Savoldelli scored time on Simoni and co mainly due to his descending skills I guess, having 20 seconds in hand before the climb then hanging on to Basso. But on stage 13 he gained time on Simoni and Di Luca on an uphill finish (7 seconds). So I reckon on the flatter climbs Savoldelli can outclimb Simoni and DiLuca and Cunego. But on the steeper climbs he gets shot out the back.

The only stage Savoldelli lost major time on was the Col de Finestre stage, more really hard stages this year so maybe he will have two stages where he gets hit badly.

 

[cPritch67]

The steeper it gets the better the small guys are. On a climb like Sestriere you want to be about 68 - 70 kilos like Basso, Armstrong, Savoldelli and have a massive FTP. The smaller guys tend to get beaten on these climbs as although they are a lot lighter their FTP's are small. There will be a gradient for which Basso and Simoni say are on an equal footing. Below that grade Basso does better, above it Simoni does better. Since Basso and Savoldelli are similar sizes they will struggle in similar ways on the really steep stuff with the stronger one winning out, but they will both be having a hard time compared to the guys who are 8kg lighter, i.e Di Luca, Simoni, Cunego.

Remember in the 2005 Giro, stage 11 Savoldelli scored time on Simoni and co mainly due to his descending skills I guess, having 20 seconds in hand before the climb then hanging on to Basso. But on stage 13 he gained time on Simoni and Di Luca on an uphill finish (7 seconds). So I reckon on the flatter climbs Savoldelli can outclimb Simoni and DiLuca and Cunego. But on the steeper climbs he gets shot out the back.

The only stage Savoldelli lost major time on was the Col de Finestre stage, more really hard stages this year so maybe he will have two stages where he gets hit badly.

Great summary Eldrack. I think that recovery will also be key. With so many tough stages back to back, being consistent and not getting shelled in any one stage is critical.
The real fireworks should start on Sunday, with Saturday offering up an exciting 40k finale - and a little uphill finish.

 

[limerickman]

Week 1 of the Giro : Cyclingnews interview Lance Armstrong on 12th May 2006 and ask him who he thinks is favourite for the TDF.
Armstrong replies.........................Basso.

Why isn't Armstrong backing his own man, Danielson, sorry, Savoldelli???

 

[whiteboytrash]

...because they were beaten like red haired step children.

You notice how Armstrong keeps changing his mind daily on who will win the Tour ? Firsts its Ullrich, then its Basso then Savoldelli, then its Basso again... he changes his Tour favourites quicker than he swaps potential wives !

Week 1 of the Giro : Cyclingnews interview Lance Armstrong on 12th May 2006 and ask him who he thinks is favourite for the TDF.
Armstrong replies.........................Basso.

Why isn't Armstrong backing his own man, Danielson, sorry, Savoldelli???

 

[rule62]

He emphasizes all the pressures on CSC and Basso. Looks like more of a psych game to me than not, saddling Basso with the 'favorite' mantle. That's always been his style in just about anything that he says.

He could also be trying to throw down the gauntlet for his Discovery team to step it up.

On the other hand, maybe he's just being, gasp, honest.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Armstrong is not riding anymore and to be honest Ullrich and Basso really couldn't care what he says... the only pressure he is applying is to Savoldelli and DC... he owns them and wants return on investment.... Basso & Ullrich must of shared a quick drink last night and had a laugh at LA in the car.... what was he thinking ? They would of been better off without him hanging around like out of work groupie.....

My one hope is that Armstrong's pressure on DC doesn't turn them to the dark side and use PED's...... that would be very sad for cycling......

He emphasizes all the pressures on CSC and Basso. Looks like more of a psych game to me than not, saddling Basso with the 'favorite' mantle. That's always been his style in just about anything that he says.

He could also be trying to throw down the gauntlet for his Discovery team to step it up.

On the other hand, maybe he's just being, gasp, honest.

 

[limerickman]

He emphasizes all the pressures on CSC and Basso. Looks like more of a psych game to me than not, saddling Basso with the 'favorite' mantle. That's always been his style in just about anything that he says.

He could also be trying to throw down the gauntlet for his Discovery team to step it up.

On the other hand, maybe he's just being, gasp, honest.

I think his remarks encapsulate the entire problem at DC.

Week one of the Giro and he's talking about the TDF.
Ok - maybe he was just replying to a question but why reply to a question about the TDF, one week in to a Giro?
And why, in replying to that question has he not backed his own man?

This is the problem.
You would assume that answers and questions ought to be focussed on the Giro rather than the TDF, given we're only 5 days in to the Giro?
You would assume that given all the mixed messages of support for Savoldelli
from within the DC, that their standard bearer and owner would try to endorse
his number one rider?

 

[whiteboytrash]

...also note in the same interview that there is a pciture of Armstrong chatting to TommyD and Armstrong calling him "great white" as in "great white hope".... ie the next American to take on the snotty nose Europeans... where does this leave Savoldelli ?

Agree with everything you say Lim... the chat always come back to the Tour and Armstrong can't help himself... no wonder Hoste is jumping ship and expect to see Savoldelli following him at the end of the year..... where's the love ?

I think his remarks encapsulate the entire problem at DC.

Week one of the Giro and he's talking about the TDF.
Ok - maybe he was just replying to a question but why reply to a question about the TDF, one week in to a Giro?
And why, in replying to that question has he not backed his own man?

This is the problem.
You would assume that answers and questions ought to be focussed on the Giro rather than the TDF, given we're only 5 days in to the Giro?
You would assume that given all the mixed messages of support for Savoldelli
from within the DC, that their standard bearer and owner would try to endorse
his number one rider?

 

[limerickman]

...also note in the same interview that there is a pciture of Armstrong chatting to TommyD and Armstrong calling him "great white" as in "great white hope".... ie the next American to take on the snotty nose Europeans... where does this leave Savoldelli ?

Agree with everything you say Lim... the chat always come back to the Tour and Armstrong can't help himself... no wonder Hoste is jumping ship and expect to see Savoldelli following him at the end of the year..... where's the love ?

I agree, it's the usual Armstrong bollox.

You only really see what a devious character Armstrong is in hindsight.

In 2004, Cycle Sport (CS) did a series of editions where they had a "Spanish" issue or a "french" issue or an "American" issue.
Each edition focussed on a country's contribution to the sport of cycling.

In the CS "US" edition, Armstrong is asked about the defection of Heras.
"Roberto is a great guy. One of the very best ever team members....blah, blah bollox"
Coyles Book "Tour de Force" Armstrong refers in rather derogatory terms regarding Heras.
He's referred to as "Roberto who?" and "we'll see just how well Roberto Who get's on with his new team".
Pathetic stuff really.
Coyles books and Armstrong views of Heras, contradict his PR speak on Heras in CS.

It's like Armstrong's waffling about France and French teams and his general demeanour.
Who was it that signed a two year deal at Cofidis in late 1995/early 1996?
Armstrong.
Kinda ironic on a number of accounts, given what we now know about Cofidis.