Can't Use Helmets in the Sun????

[Sorni]

Hadron Quark wrote:
> David Damerell <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Quoting Hadron Quark <[email protected]>:
>>> Peter Clinch <[email protected]> writes:
>>>> So why can't you actually come up with a logically consistent
>>>> answer, rather than just dismissing it? Kids running and jumping
>>>> produce many, many ER admissions, and they're more productive of
>>>> head injuries than cycling spills. So why does it make sense for
>>>> child cyclists but not child runners and jumpers to wear
>>>> protective headgear?
>>> Because there is nothing to answer. I am not discussing kids
>>> running and jumping. I am discussing bike accidents caused by
>>> unforseen impetus.
>>
>> Try to weasel away from the point with at least a modicum of
>> subtlety, I suggest.
>
> What point? I dont wish to discuss wearing a helmet for anything other
> than cycling. What is so hard for you to understsnd?
>
> Why is this slippery goal post moving the only argument you seem to
> have?
>
> "Why dont people wear a helmet to pop concerts" is not linked to
> whether a helmet would provide some protection in the event of an
> unforseen tumble *from a bike* resulting in the head striking a
> solid object.

It's always funny to see weasels call others weasels in their typically
weaselly fashion. You answer to Damnitall was perfect.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

John B wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > John B wrote:
> > > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > >
> > > > John B wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Fine. I'd be very careful though, as your present tendency to fall off may be
> > > > > your ultimate undoing.
> > > > > i'll call the ambulance when I reach the bottom.
> > > >
> > > > By which time I'll likely be home, sipping an apres ride seasonal brew.
> > >
> > > That's one way to alleviate the pain.
> > >
> > > Mine? Learn to ride skillfully.
> >
> > Ring me up when stateside, boyo.
>
> Will do. You'll find my training charges very reasonable.
>
>
No need to bring children in diapers, however precocious and sweet
tempered.

 

[Sorni]

David Damerell wrote:

> See, I would conclude that the helmet maybe saved me scrapes. Which
> is nice

We can all go home now.

 

[Sorni]

David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Cathy Kearns <[email protected]>:
>> "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_WarrenRogersAssociates.com> wrote in
>> message

>>> Simple: tell them they can't ride without one.

>> Worked for me for my children. One continues to ride a bike. The
>> other decided it wasn't worth it, and gave up bike riding when she
>> entered junior high. Prefered to walk the 1.5 miles each way.


> So, given the health effects, you had a large negative effect on that
> child's life expectancy. Well done! Perhaps you should suggest she
> takes up smoking, too?

A "large negative effect on that child's life expectancy"??? Damn it all,
Damnitall -- you're being a weasel. Again.

Walking 3 miles a day probably affords /more/ health benefits than cycling
the same distance. More constant "work" (no coasting); less danger of
accidents & injuries, too. (Here we go.)

You've outdone even yourself.

BS (really)

 

[Sorni]

[email protected] wrote:
> I have been doing long distance self contained touring for about 20
> years and have been hit by cars twice.
>
> Both times was hit within a mile of my home while riding in the
> middle of a group of bicycles. In each case a car rode directly
> across the road from a cross street through the group of riders. How
> lucky can you be.
>
> In both cases although low speed collisions, I was thrown from bike
> and landed by hitting my head on the curbing.
>
> The first time in 1986 an MG hit my front wheel throwing me into the
> air. I landed on my back and the back of my head hit the curbing. It
> must have hit fairly hard because my glasses were throw completely
> across the road despite the eye glass retaining strap I was wearing.
> The driver kept on going but was caught by another driver. I was
> stunned, My back abraded. My glasses were gouged, my front wheel and
> fork were a pretzel and my helmet (a bell hard shell) was cracked.
> But I was just dazed and abraded, otherwise unhurt. I think the helmet
> saved my life.
>
> The second time in 1998, I was the middle of three riders on the same
> street as the previous accident. A Chevy station wagon, ran a stop
> sign and hit me. This time she hit closer to the middle of the bike
> and I was thrown across the street and hit head first on the curbing.
> This must say something about the weight of my head versus the rest
> of my body. I was knocked out. and had some pretty deep gouges on my
> right leg and ankle, a strained neck and shoulder plus lots of
> bruises. My helmet didn't crack this time (it was a Giro) but I was
> happy to replace it. Again, I think the helmet saved my life.
>
> I have been run off the road since but luckily not hit. There are two
> things I take away from these incidents:
>
> 1. Stay off of that street
>
> 2. Always wear my helmet especially when I ride near home.
>
> Roland
>
> Dover, NH
> ebent.com

Sorry, Roland, your personal experiences and subsequent decisions are not
considered valid in there NGs. Go read some "studies". HTH, BS

 

[Sorni]

Sorni wrote:

> Sorry, Roland, your personal experiences and subsequent decisions are
> not considered valid in there NGs. Go read some "studies". HTH, BS

s/b "these" NGs (for those who think I meant "their"?)...

 

[John B]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:

> John B wrote:
>
> > > > Mine? Learn to ride skillfully.
> > >
> > > Ring me up when stateside, boyo.
> >
> > Will do. You'll find my training charges very reasonable.
> >
> No need to bring children in diapers, however precocious and sweet
> tempered.

its no worry. They don't mind at all.
They will be only too pleased to teach you the basics.

John B

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

John B wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> > John B wrote:
> >
> > > > > Mine? Learn to ride skillfully.
> > > >
> > > > Ring me up when stateside, boyo.
> > >
> > > Will do. You'll find my training charges very reasonable.
> > >
> > No need to bring children in diapers, however precocious and sweet
> > tempered.
>
> its no worry. They don't mind at all.
> They will be only too pleased to teach you the basics.
>
>

And you get to wipe their cheeks. Seems a warm arrangement. Just wash
off before the ride.

 

[Tony Raven]

Sorni wrote:
>
> The ones left cycling are the ones most likely to get hurt ("serious"
> riders).
>

Even if the ones left cycling were the only ones to get hurt (i.e. the
people who stopped cycling did not get hurt at all and so their stopping
created no reduction in head injuries at all) then the serious cyclists
still increased their wearing of helmets with no change to their head
injuries at all. No, sorry Bill, your hypothesis still fails.

However the evidence is that the "serious" cyclists have the lowest risk
of injury. The data from five studies* is that the accidents per
million miles (average annual miles) is 550 (580) for elementary school
student, 510 (600) for college students, 340 (814) for commuters, 113
(2,400) for League of American Bicyclists and 66 (2000) for Cyclists'
Touring Club members. So the serious cyclists have the lowest accident
rate, the inverse of your proposition

* Chlapecka et al 1975; Schupack and Driessen 1976; Aultman-Hall and
Kaltenecker 1998; Kaplan 1976; Moritz 1998

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Burt]

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> The bad news for all you URC AHZ data-whores is that personal
> experience trumps statistics and mental masturbation *every time*,
> sorry.

Have you thought of getting treatment for your inability to post anything
without crude sexual references?

 

[Grolch]

Can't we just let this be?




"Burt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
>
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> The bad news for all you URC AHZ data-whores is that personal
>> experience trumps statistics and mental masturbation *every time*,
>> sorry.
>
> Have you thought of getting treatment for your inability to post anything
> without crude sexual references?
>

 

[Burt]

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>
> Your personal experience is different than mine. I suggest you follow
> your own personal experience. Is that a problem for you?
>
> Ah, to the heart of the matter! I'm not trying to convince anyone to
> wear a helmet. Or not to wear a helmet. You, and you fellow AHZs, OTOH,
> have a very discernable anti-helmet agenda.
>
> I place a good deal of weight in my personal experiences when making
> personal decisions. This tends to make me intolerant of the "why don't
> you wear a helmet whilst walking" type of drivel the comes from the AHZ
> corner of the world.
>
>
> <drivel snipped>

Sadly not, you still wrote the above. Why not save yourself time and
trouble and not write it in the first place?
>

 

[Mike Rice]

On 30 May 2006 07:33:38 -0700, "Ozark Bicycle"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> >
>> > It's pretty clear that wearing a helmet can prevent scrapes and such.
>>
>> They why wouldn't you wear a helmet for that reason alone?
>>
>> > That's quite different than the claims of helmets frequently
>> > preventing serious injury and death.
>>
>> Most of us who wear them assume that they mitigate risk...at least to a
>> certain extent. This is similar to other risk mitigation devices in our
>> lives (e.g., seat belts). Given that they do mitigate risk, why not wear
>> one?
>>
>
>Yours is a very sensible position. It's also the one that offends the
>Anti-Helmet Zealots the most, since it reduces them to childish retorts
>such as "why don't you wear a helmet in the shower?", "why don't you
>wear a helmet whilst walking?", etc.

I certainly don't consider myself an anti-helmet zealot. But I do
appreciate the arguement that the activities you mention (showering
and walking) are statistically more likely to result in head injuries
than bicycling. So where is the flaw?

Indiana Mike

 

[Richard]

Hadron Quark wrote:

> Ive slipped a few times in the shower : sometimes soap, sometimes shower
> mat, sometimes reaching for something with soap in my eyes - but have
> never clanged my head walking to the local spar.
>
> Again : I dont believe these statistics as being truly representational.

There are those that believe the Earth is flat because all they can see
is flatness.

R.

 

[jtaylor]

"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> jtaylor wrote:
> > "Hadron Quark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>>>
> >>> So why can't you actually come up with a logically consistent
> >>> answer, rather than just dismissing it? Kids running and jumping
> >>> produce many, many ER admissions, and they're more productive of
> >>> head injuries than cycling spills. So why does it make sense for
> >>> child cyclists but not child runners and jumpers to wear protective
> >>> headgear? Just answer, rather than dismiss as "childish" or
> >>> "pathetic".
> >>
> >> Because there is nothing to answer. I am not discussing kids running
> >> and jumping. I am discussing bike accidents caused by unforseen
> >> impetus.
> >>
> >
> > And as you have so much time to spend on this, do you not think your
> > service to humanity would be greater by re-directing you efforts
> > where they would do more good?
> >
> > Think of the Children!
>
> Aren't you the one who attacked Ozark for being sarcastic and insulting?
>

Sarcasm, no; insults yes - do try to keep up.

I take it then, given the above reply, that you agree that insults are no
replacement for data, and that you will refrain from using them in future.

 

[Richard]

Ian Smith wrote:
> I would expect it is. My experience of showers is that there are
> rarely cars passing in close proximity at high speed. Possibly you
> (and/or your local society) have different criteria for locating
> showers than I and mine do.

Showers also don't tend to have dangerously slippery coatings of snow
and ice in the winter (or if they do, they tend not to get used).
Again, I wonder if American showers are different.

R.

 

[Sorni]

jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> jtaylor wrote:
>>> "Hadron Quark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>> So why can't you actually come up with a logically consistent
>>>>> answer, rather than just dismissing it? Kids running and jumping
>>>>> produce many, many ER admissions, and they're more productive of
>>>>> head injuries than cycling spills. So why does it make sense for
>>>>> child cyclists but not child runners and jumpers to wear
>>>>> protective headgear? Just answer, rather than dismiss as
>>>>> "childish" or "pathetic".
>>>>
>>>> Because there is nothing to answer. I am not discussing kids
>>>> running and jumping. I am discussing bike accidents caused by
>>>> unforseen impetus.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And as you have so much time to spend on this, do you not think your
>>> service to humanity would be greater by re-directing you efforts
>>> where they would do more good?
>>>
>>> Think of the Children!
>>
>> Aren't you the one who attacked Ozark for being sarcastic and
>> insulting?
>>
>
> Sarcasm, no; insults yes - do try to keep up.
>
> I take it then, given the above reply, that you agree that insults
> are no replacement for data, and that you will refrain from using
> them in future.

I think you are a hypocrite for jumping into an exchange in which you
previously had not participated just to throw out a gratuitous insult, when
just today you've repeatedly chastised others for {wait for it} posting
insults in response to insults.

In fact, change "I think" to I /know/...

 

[Richard]

Sorni wrote:
> In fact, change "I think" to I /know/...

You didn't need to correct yourself; you've made it abundantly clear
that you never think.

R.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 30 May 2006 09:03:40 -0400, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_WarrenRogersAssociates.com> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> How do you make kids wear a helmet? They really hate wearing them.
>
>Simple: tell them they can't ride without one.

Sweet. Maybe we can do that with all cyclists.

JT


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[David Martin]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Ring me up when stateside, boyo.

This reminds me of a friend. She went to college in the US and was
invited to go skiing. 'we ski a lot and are quite good' said her hosts.
"Do you ski much?' 'I can ski but I am not particularly good' was the
reply.

So off they went to some resort or other just up the road. Off down the
black run. So my friend takes it quite casual and gentle, enjoying the
run down without pushing it at all. Then turns round to see her hosts
slowly picking their way down. "I thought you said you wern't
particularly good?' they said when they got to the bottom. "Not by
Norwegian standards I'm not" was the reply.

...d