George Bush is a war criminal

[Colorado Ryder]

Yes. Read & Learn. The US actively provoked the Kosovo war, and the US dug it's heels in on reacting quickly to the first bout of civil war in Yugoslavia. The "Old Europe" countries wanted to get straight in there, and had the units to do so.



Yes. Read & Learn. Millions dead. Families seperated. Land poisoned.



Yes. Read & Learn.



In the main, nope (if you don't count the jets falling out of the sky).



I'd say the only military use of Nukes on civillians was pretty destructive, let alone the fire bombing.



Yes. Read & Learn. The death squads, the dead nuns, etc...



Nope, but then again you weren't fighting.



Yes. Read & Learn. Haven't you read *any* history books ?



Yes. Look at the mass graves left behind and the film of living Iraqi soldiers being bulldozed into them.



A rather simplistic, one-sided and naive view IMO. The same kind of views wer e expressed by apologists for the British Empire too.



Military force is 80% logistics according to some people. The US still has the largest and most destructive military force on the planet, regardless of how much of it is logistics. The stats bear that out, whatever we think about the rights and wrongs of it.

C'mon Roadhog. Don't you know by now the US is the cause of all the problems in the world. Darkboong said so. So you know its got to be true.

 

[roadhog]

Yes. Read & Learn. The US actively provoked the Kosovo war, and the US dug it's heels in on reacting quickly to the first bout of civil war in Yugoslavia. The "Old Europe" countries wanted to get straight in there, and had the units to do so.
Yes. Read & Learn. Millions dead. Families seperated. Land poisoned.
Yes. Read & Learn.
In the main, nope (if you don't count the jets falling out of the sky).
I'd say the only military use of Nukes on civillians was pretty destructive, let alone the fire bombing.
Yes. Read & Learn. The death squads, the dead nuns, etc...
Nope, but then again you weren't fighting.
Yes. Read & Learn. Haven't you read *any* history books ?
Yes. Look at the mass graves left behind and the film of living Iraqi soldiers being bulldozed into them.
A rather simplistic, one-sided and naive view IMO. The same kind of views wer e expressed by apologists for the British Empire too.
Military force is 80% logistics according to some people. The US still has the largest and most destructive military force on the planet, regardless of how much of it is logistics. The stats bear that out, whatever we think about the rights and wrongs of it.

Ok you got me on Japan. I forgot to put in the caveat about "in the last 55 or so years". I apologize. The bombings you mention were certainly the eptimoy of destruction and I would not argue otherwise. About the others, I knew as soon as I posted that it was a mistake because some of us have differing views of the purpose/result of our presence in those locations. Believe it or not, I know a thing or two about military history. I know the facts, and I'm sure you do as well. We don't have to agree on what those facts represent. That's fine. I'm not here to argue with you over all of history.

My point is that the US military over the past 30 years or so has spent more time in peacekeeping / stabilizing / relief operations than anything else. Sometimes peacekeeping and stabilization activities do include bullets and explosions, but they are what they are.

I'm not even sure what we're debating, because you are right that we have the most destructive capability. I just didn't like the implication that we're itching for ways to go around destroying things. We spend most of our time on other tasks in the long run.

Incidentally, most stats will consistently show us as #2 in the world in military personnel strength, and if you consider only Army personnel we are usually #5 -#7 or so on most lists against other armies. Of course overall military strength is a function of many more things than troop numbers. And we certainly have the highest defense spending. Again, I don't think we are disagreeing on much here.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

locked up thanks to the new bankruptcy laws...

Care to explain? or can you?

 

[roadhog]

In the main, nope (if you don't count the jets falling out of the sky).

Are you honestly displaying bitterness over the end result of our actions in the cold war in relation to levels of destruction? C'mon man, have you given one second thought to the alternative outcomes of that period?

Nope, but then again you weren't fighting.

Oh, my fault. Are we talking about us destroying things in a fight? If so, then hell yes we destroy things in a fight! That's what fights are! A military without the aim of destroying enemies in a fight is silly.

 

[jaguar75]

Ok you got me on Japan. I forgot to put in the caveat about "in the last 55 or so years". I apologize. The bombings you mention were certainly the eptimoy of destruction and I would not argue otherwise. About the others, I knew as soon as I posted that it was a mistake because some of us have differing views of the purpose/result of our presence in those locations. Believe it or not, I know a thing or two about military history. I know the facts, and I'm sure you do as well. We don't have to agree on what those facts represent. That's fine. I'm not here to argue with you over all of history.

My point is that the US military over the past 30 years or so has spent more time in peacekeeping / stabilizing / relief operations than anything else. Sometimes peacekeeping and stabilization activities do include bullets and explosions, but they are what they are.

I'm not even sure what we're debating, because you are right that we have the most destructive capability. I just didn't like the implication that we're itching for ways to go around destroying things. We spend most of our time on other tasks in the long run.

Incidentally, most stats will consistently show us as #2 in the world in military personnel strength, and if you consider only Army personnel we are usually #5 -#7 or so on most lists against other armies. Of course overall military strength is a function of many more things than troop numbers. And we certainly have the highest defense spending. Again, I don't think we are disagreeing on much here.

Lets not forget that dropping the 2 bombs on Japan saved more lives than it took. Another mass beach invasion would have been devestating. the world was tired of fighting and the world wanted the war to be over. If you can show me one person from that era that disagreed with the US's decision to drop the bomb I will be shocked.

Another thing about this **** that the US just goes to all of these **** ant countries and just strikes up a fight...our presence in those countries was either at the request of the sane people there or NATO...What would the world be like today if the US and the UK had pulled out of NATO 10 years ago...No one to run to for help from all of the psychos that oddly keep popping up in European countries....Don't forget Europe of what you have becasue of the US...

 

[Colorado Ryder]

High welfare and high employment standards. Above all, a secular society not religious based. Also very important, an emphasis on human rights in all spheres. It's the failure to adhere to human rights that always led me to attack Bush so vehemenently (as opposed to Clinton who has done a good deal to support Third World causes and liberal values).

It's peculiar this European dream. Do Greeks have the same dream as Norwegians? Do Ukrainians have the same wishes as the French? Do the Germans think like the Spanish? Do the Romanians want the same thing as the Dutch? Do the Serbs want the same life as the Bosnians? Just who has defined this dream?

 

[Carrera]

The true picture would be difficult for the rest of us to guess. I suppose over here I'm quite at liberty to lambast Bush Junior but it would be quite another story if I dared belittle David Beckham.
This is basically what p****s me off most about this region. There I am as a cyclist, busting my ass and doing real gut-busting climbing work and yet I suffer daily abuse from drunken football hooligans who drive cars. These guys are impressed by someone who can kick a bag of wind about a pitch while we cyclists are delegated to the role of third-class sportsmen.
Next time England plays Germany for the World Cup, I would love to hoist a big German flag in the air in the middle of town.
There I go letting off steam again.

Remember, we have only heard his side of the story. You remain objective here and consider that perhaps…just perhaps it has nothing to do with cycling vs. football but rather someone who goes out of his way to be different(ok no problem)…but then throws little temper tantrums when his peers disagree with his “religion is evil, GWB is a nazi war criminal, republicans must all die and burn in hell mantra…Naw…I’m sure it has nothing to do with that Not in the small town of hootersville, pixley, mayberry …

 

[FredC]

Gordon Banks originated from around here but, to be honest, I can't abide football.
I just wish someone would challenge David Beckham to cycle, run and swim and let's see how fit he really is.

How much will you putting up in 'The Superstars Programme' in the Carrera v Beckham match? All for Charity. It will be a match set off with different start times so that you don't affect him your BO.

 

[FredC]

The true picture would be difficult for the rest of us to guess. I suppose over here I'm quite at liberty to lambast Bush Junior but it would be quite another story if I dared belittle David Beckham.
This is basically what p****s me off most about this region. There I am as a cyclist, busting my ass and doing real gut-busting climbing work and yet I suffer daily abuse from drunken football hooligans who drive cars. These guys are impressed by someone who can kick a bag of wind about a pitch while we cyclists are delegated to the role of third-class sportsmen.
Next time England plays Germany for the World Cup, I would love to hoist a big German flag in the air in the middle of town.
There I go letting off steam again.

Nothing unusual for you blowing steam from your ass. Can we expect more **** in a short while. You're getting a bit near the turtles head.
BTW what club do you ride for?
If you're busting your ass, it must be constipation.

 

[FredC]

It's peculiar this European dream. Do Greeks have the same dream as Norwegians? Do Ukrainians have the same wishes as the French? Do the Germans think like the Spanish? Do the Romanians want the same thing as the Dutch? Do the Serbs want the same life as the Bosnians? Just who has defined this dream?

Mr Bonkers.

 

[Carrera]

Bring Senor Beckham on, I say.

"This is the story about a man,
With iron fists and a wonderful tan,
He talks a lot and boasts indeed,
Of a powerful punch and blinding speed."

How much will you putting up in 'The Superstars Programme' in the Carrera v Beckham match? All for Charity. It will be a match set off with different start times so that you don't affect him your BO.

 

[Carrera]

Well, maybe I'll tell you what club one day when I'm in a good mood. Just watch out for a yellow Carrera and you may spot me but don't blink as you'll miss it.

Nothing unusual for you blowing steam from your ass. Can we expect more **** in a short while. You're getting a bit near the turtles head.
BTW what club do you ride for?
If you're busting your ass, it must be constipation.

 

[FredC]

Well, maybe I'll tell you what club one day when I'm in a good mood. Just watch out for a yellow Carrera and you may spot me but don't blink as you'll miss it.

You tend to forget, or ignore the fact that I know nearly everyone of note in the bike racing game. From your area I know all the regional, national, european, commonwealth and Olympic champions whether they be trackies, TTist's, or roadmen. I'll ask one or two of them have they ever seen a tw@ on a yellow Carrera with a copy of the Daily Mail stuck out of his pocket.

 

[jhuskey]

You tend to forget, or ignore the fact that I know nearly everyone of note in the bike racing game. From your area I know all the regional, national, european, commonwealth and Olympic champions whether they be trackies, TTist's, or roadmen. I'll ask one or two of them have they ever seen a tw@ on a yellow Carrera with a copy of the Daily Mail stuck out of his pocket.

That's why I chose to maintain a low profile and never excel at anything as to maintain a hint of mystery.
So far so good.

 

[davidmc]

Nobody invited you to gatecrash our long term party. So get your coat on and clear off before we set Peabody on you.
Don't come back now, ya hear.

Just say the word & I will pounce

 

[ryan_velo.]

Fed, your one of the wittiest fellows I have ever come across

 

[darkboong]

the US is the cause of all the problems in the world.

Personally I wouldn't go that far, and you will not find a quote where I claim that. I realise that won't stop you from lying.

 

[darkboong]

My point is that the US military over the past 30 years or so has spent more time in peacekeeping / stabilizing / relief operations than anything else. Sometimes peacekeeping and stabilization activities do include bullets and explosions, but they are what they are.

The Vietnam War doesn't count as peacekeeping and it is easily the biggest single operation the US was involved in during the last 30 years... When it comes to "Peace Keeping", generally the US does the Blitzkrieg and passes the mess over to other nations to clean up.

I'm not even sure what we're debating, because you are right that we have the most destructive capability. I just didn't like the implication that we're itching for ways to go around destroying things. We spend most of our time on other tasks in the long run.

No, you do actually use those weapons. With regard to expanding the world's largest nuclear arsenal, Rummy wants "Useable" nukes (his choice of word) for example.

Incidentally, most stats will consistently show us as #2 in the world in military personnel strength, and if you consider only Army personnel we are usually #5 -#7 or so on most lists against other armies. Of course overall military strength is a function of many more things than troop numbers. And we certainly have the highest defense spending. Again, I don't think we are disagreeing on much here.

What causes more damage ? A man with an AK47 or a 10MT nuke ?

 

[darkboong]

Lets not forget that dropping the 2 bombs on Japan saved more lives than it took.

That's a "What If", Fantasy Land, not a fact.

I don't see how killing off 230,000 civillians in three raids saved lives. Why was the second bomb "necessary" ? IMO it was used as a live test (it was a plutonium bomb rather than a uranium one).

Just to put this into perspective, IIRC the US lost < 300,000 servicemen in the entire duration of WWII. On the Japanese civillian side one fire-bombing raid on Tokyo claimed 80,000 lives alone, the Hiroshima bomb claimed in excess of 100,000, and the Nagasaki bomb claimed in excess of 50,000.

FWIW I ain't a fan of what Britain did as far as bombing cities (Dresden, Cologne for example). It was disgusting and there was no excuse for it.

There is no justification for slaughtering defenceless civillians on that scale IMO.

Another mass beach invasion would have been devestating. the world was tired of fighting and the world wanted the war to be over. If you can show me one person from that era that disagreed with the US's decision to drop the bomb I will be shocked.

Have you heard of Oppenheimer ?

Another thing about this **** that the US just goes to all of these **** ant countries and just strikes up a fight...our presence in those countries was either at the request of the sane people there or NATO...

Like Noreiga for example ?

What would the world be like today if the US and the UK had pulled out of NATO 10 years ago...No one to run to for help from all of the psychos that oddly keep popping up in European countries....Don't forget Europe of what you have becasue of the US...

I have been advocating the dissolution of NATO for over 15 years. Europe should set up it's own force, however the UK and US have been fighting against that. Why would the US and the UK want to keep Europe dependant on the US, hmm ?

Another little factoid : The UK doesn't even have control of it's own nuclear weapons, the targetting and firing codes are held by the US... As a tax-payer I see that as a gross waste of my money, particularly as Trident is a big fat Lemon with or without the firing codes.

 

[Colorado Ryder]

Personally I wouldn't go that far, and you will not find a quote where I claim that. I realise that won't stop you from lying.

I realize that it won't stop you from pontificating about how the US has screwed everything up. Continue on. You are quite amusing.