George Bush is a war criminal

[darkboong]

Needless to say, Thatcher also sold WMD to Saddam Hussein. Politicians cause us all more trouble than they're worth.

It's worth pointing out that the US and the UK were the only countries to balk at signing the resolution to declare Apartheid a bad thing at the UN. Their tolerance and support of the attrocities committed by the Israeli regime doesn't come as a surprise.

 

[roadhog]

Roadhog :

While I appreciate your sentiments, one only has to look as far as Iraq to see that your country's foreign policy is not very competent.

Vietnam, Somalia were disasters.
The proxy wars involving your goverment (or agencies of your goverment) left
countries and economies in ruins like Chile, El Salvador.

The tacit support for countries like Israel also destabilises an entire region.

To compound all of this, is the fact that many ordinary decent Americans have no idea just what your country does get up to abroad.
A lot of good does emanate from your country too.
But in respect of goverment policy, I think there is a lot of stuff done by your goverment which is ethically and morally wrong.

Finally, someone who can be mature. Thank you.

You guys are trying to take me down a slippery slope here in terms of the context of this debate. My simple contention that began these posts is that our military has spent MUCH time over the years performing a myriad of tasks other than direct air/sea/land combat. In fact we have sacrificed many lives in the name of causes having nothing to do with the major wars/battles that most have in their minds. That's all. There is much more to our military complex than destruction. That was my only original point.

Now, back to the stuff I'm being drug into...

I'm getting nit-picked about this thing and that. Hell yeah we've made costly mistakes. Yes, we have had shady things go on here and there. I'm not saying that this is a necessarily good or bad thing, but as the world's only superpower we have a huge responsibility to parts of the world even far from us geologically (even davidmc - the poli/sci major he is - would agree with me on that statement - and we never agree...). The geo-political landscape is complex and tightly woven. We have a responsibility to be involved many places for reasons on several levels. I think we'd agree on that. Given the sheer volume of our responsibilities and resulting actions, there will be some that are mistakes. And there certainly have been. You are right that Vietnam and Somalia were disasters. Somalia - sure it was a disaster - but I would contend it began and ended with good intentions and we simply underestimated certain factors and got beat. Miscalculations? Yes. Calculated evil? No. And of course there have been other shady things on smaller scales. BUT, I would also contend that there have been many more good things come that nobody likes to think or talk about.

As the world's only superpower, we have two options:
1. Be very involved. And in the process make some inevitable mistakes.
2. Be complacent. Be withdrawn. Do not engage on the international scene. Can you imagine the outcry if this were the case?

We have obviously chosen #1. Yes, we have made mistakes. Any other superpower in history that has chosen #1 has done the same. But I would take that over the repurcussions of #2.

What are you measuring the competency of our foreign policy against? With who/what do you have it to compare to? Remember, the comparison must be fair, in that most nations do not have near the responsilibility as ours at this point in history.

In short, I believe there is a lot of the "arm-chair quarterback" phenomenon going on with a lot of these arguments.

 

[limerickman]

Not wishing to be facetious - but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The fact is that there is now a wide feeling of scepticism about your country and it's foreign policy, after Iraq.
Most of us fundamentally have a problem with a goverment who lies to us and lies throughout, in respect of Iraq.

I think most reasonable people would welcome US involvement in a lot of regions.
No one assumes that each and every gesture to help is controlled by some sub agenda.
I have been fortunate enough to meet a lot of your country's people in diverse locations doing good work.

Your country is a superpower and that position brings responsibility.
Probably a lot more responsibility than would apply to lesser countries and therefore the level of propriety required in reaching life and death decisions
should be higher.
Unfortunately, it appears that the level of propriety required about Iraq fell well well short.

And I would suggest just one more thing.
History shows that all superpowers ultimately perish.
Not wishing to see ill to you or your country but superpower and arrogance,
in the human condition, appear to go hand in hand.

 

[roadhog]

The fact is that there is now a wide feeling of scepticism about your country and it's foreign policy, after Iraq.

I'm fully aware. I lived in Europe through much of this transformation of feelings. I lived in Europe for quite a while, then spent considerable time in Iraq, then spent more time in Europe. I've seen the before and after if you will. In fact, international feeling toward us is the main reason I didn't actively support this administration through the recent election. I think too many Americans underestimate the importance of our international relationships.

Most of us fundamentally have a problem with a goverment who lies to us and lies throughout, in respect of Iraq.

Finally, we get to the crux of the matter for you. I realize Iraq is the sore spot for many. I also know you are aware of my feelings on this through my posts in the first thread in which I ever posted a few months back so I won't get into them again.

Your country is a superpower and that position brings responsibility.
Probably a lot more responsibility than would apply to lesser countries and therefore the level of propriety required in reaching life and death decisions
should be higher.
Unfortunately, it appears that the level of propriety required about Iraq fell well well short.

Appreciate you logic, but again, not going to turn this into an Iraq debate. Plenty of other discussion here devoted to that.

And I would suggest just one more thing.
History shows that all superpowers ultimately perish.

You are quite right. It would be naive to think otherwise. As I pointed out to FredC in a post long ago...sometime in future decades or generations or whenever it may be that the balance of power has shifted away from the US, how nice it will be for my ancestors to sit around and lament the decisions made by whoever maintains the power - even if we are allied with them and reap all the same benefits.

Not wishing to see ill to you or your country but superpower and arrogance,
in the human condition, appear to go hand in hand.

You may be right to a certain degree. But don't also mistake pride (as I'm sure you have as well for your fine country) for arrogance.

 

[limerickman]

Roadhog,

You are right Iraq has been a very very devisive issue and to simply view the USA through such that sole prism would be unfair.

I have utmost respect for people supporting their country and you are right to be proud of your country.

But it is up to citizens in every country to keep their own politicians honest.
I think we all need to do this, in our respective countries.

 

[jaguar75]

Roadhog,

You are right Iraq has been a very very devisive issue and to simply view the USA through such that sole prism would be unfair.

I have utmost respect for people supporting their country and you are right to be proud of your country.

But it is up to citizens in every country to keep their own politicians honest.
I think we all need to do this, in our respective countries.

Yup...Yup...Yup
Amen...Though I am very opinionated You are very right Lim...Jeez what the heck is going on. This is like the second thread where I have supported you Lim, I am starting to get scared.

 

[limerickman]

Yup...Yup...Yup
Amen...Though I am very opinionated You are very right Lim...Jeez what the heck is going on. This is like the second thread where I have supported you Lim, I am starting to get scared.

Don't get too comfortable there, 75.

I've posted some points on the communism/capitalism debate which you won't be too happy about !

 

[jaguar75]

Don't get too comfortable there, 75.

I've posted some points on the communism/capitalism debate which you won't be too happy about !

Yeah yeah...I have already addressed your banter...

I have been meaning to ask you this question for a while...The picture on your profile...is this guy making a sexual-oral jesture or is he caughing?

 

[darkboong]

Yeah yeah...I have already addressed your banter...

I have been meaning to ask you this question for a while...The picture on your profile...is this guy making a sexual-oral jesture or is he caughing?

That's Bob Flemming from The Fast Show.

 

[roadhog]

Roadhog,

You are right Iraq has been a very very devisive issue and to simply view the USA through such that sole prism would be unfair.

I have utmost respect for people supporting their country and you are right to be proud of your country.

But it is up to citizens in every country to keep their own politicians honest.
I think we all need to do this, in our respective countries.

Something we can firmly agree on. Good points all. And it seems like constant work to do so too, regardless of who is in charge...

 

[davidmc]

Not wishing to be facetious - but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The fact is that there is now a wide feeling of scepticism about your country and it's foreign policy, after Iraq.
Most of us fundamentally have a problem with a goverment who lies to us and lies throughout, in respect of Iraq.

I think most reasonable people would welcome US involvement in a lot of regions.
No one assumes that each and every gesture to help is controlled by some sub agenda.
I have been fortunate enough to meet a lot of your country's people in diverse locations doing good work.

Your country is a superpower and that position brings responsibility.
Probably a lot more responsibility than would apply to lesser countries and therefore the level of propriety required in reaching life and death decisions
should be higher.
Unfortunately, it appears that the level of propriety required about Iraq fell well well short.

And I would suggest just one more thing.
History shows that all superpowers ultimately perish.
Not wishing to see ill to you or your country but superpower and arrogance,
in the human condition, appear to go hand in hand.

Once again Lim-succinctly put. I submit that it is the current regime errr...I mean-administration that is conducting itself as a "bull in a china shop". Iraq (ill-planned quagmire), Abu Ghraib (speaks for itself), renditions for the purpose of torture (a proven, "failed technique"), promotion or commendation of confirmed feck ups in his gang, ect...does not meet w/ praise, in the int'l community.

 

[Wurm]

(As example) roadhog said: "Thanks for those immature statements."

[Why don't you see if you can find it at your library or something? That is, if you can do so without being arrested under suspicion of terra'.]

I fail to see the "immaturity" in my statements. Asking you to look further into a subject and educate yourself on the facts before you go off half-cocked is immature? I think not. If you were actually knowledgeable about the Bush/neo-con agenda and the wanton acts of treason and high crimes they have already committed, I wouldn't have to point out books and documented evidence about it, or the foreign policy papers that have been authored by the Project for a New American Century - the neo-con bastion. It is easy enough to find: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

...and here are just a few of their signatories/members:

Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, **** Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz

I don't know if you're aware of it but the fact is that the so-called "Patriot" Act - which was the brainchild of J. Ashcroft and the neo-cons - allows the gov't to spy on what materials you read or take out of a library. You can be arrested on "suspicion of terrorism" for reading the "wrong" thing. Most libraries/librarians across the country have been opposed to this since it began right after 9/11.

BTW - isn't it convenient that you don't want to discuss the Iraq or torture issues? Is it because doing so might ignite bouts of cognitive dissonance within your belief system?

So please, keep your faux-indignation to yourself, and quit obfuscating the points or avoiding them. It seems to me that you are the one here with a "passion", or better put - a closed mind and a stiff-necked resistance to admitting this regime's criminality and failures.

As with most supporters of Bush and the 'cons, you can't allow the facts to confuse you. But ignoring the facts won't make them go away, I can assure you of that.

 

[tbobby]

Looks like all these war criminals keep getting reelected - Bush, Howard and just tonight, Blair.

 

[Wurm]

Looks like all these war criminals keep getting reelected - Bush, Howard and just tonight, Blair.

Of this you can be sure: they're all in this Big Lie together. It's about one thing: Peak Oil and the money and power that controlling it will bring. It has not a thing to do with "freedom & democracy".

 

[davidmc]

As with most supporters of Bush and the 'cons, you can't allow the facts to confuse you. But ignoring the facts won't make them go away, I can assure you of that.

This is true. Just like Bush, they will not admit factual errors made, by Bush on their behalf. You know the maxim: "It takes a man to admit he was wrong." In the distant past, I have admitted when I was wrong on this forum but, there are only a few con's here; if any, who would extend the same courtesy

 

[roadhog]

First of all, I apologize for going back on my word and responding to your latest post. I couldn't resist myself despite my better judgement...

I fail to see the "immaturity" in my statements. Asking you to look further into a subject and educate yourself on the facts before you go off half-cocked is immature? I think not. If you were actually knowledgeable about the Bush/neo-con agenda and the wanton acts of treason and high crimes they have already committed, I wouldn't have to point out books and documented evidence about it, or the foreign policy papers that have been authored by the Project for a New American Century - the neo-con bastion. It is easy enough to find...

Point taken about your intent, but you have to admit your attitude is quite abrasive and obnoxious, especially considering you STILL refuse to consider my stance on these things. Did you read when I told you verbatim that I am not the biggest fan? I am quite well read. We are entitled to different opinions of a given set of facts, whatever the topic may be. Your assumption that I have no freakin' clue what is going on is offensive and more indicative of your apparent fanatacism. I have never implied the same of you...

BTW - isn't it convenient that you don't want to discuss the Iraq or torture issues? Is it because doing so might ignite bouts of cognitive dissonance within your belief system?

I only avoid it when it is completely out of context for the debate at hand. Our original exchange was not on this topic. If you are interested on my feelings on Iraq, see my post here:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?p=1701550#post1701550

I have repeatedly mentioned the torture issues in other threads on this forum. Again, that was not the topic at hand here. I have nothing but harsh statements for those involved in that debacle. In fact, I would bet that my displeasure over that whole thing is more extreme than most. I invested over a year of my life away from my family over there, and a few despicable people and their ****-poor leadership at several levels managed to put a lot of good work to waste. Unlike most people here, I have been inside said prison myself, and flew to / from it many times. I suspect I have more insight than most, and I would never defend anything related to what went on in there, both under Saddam and under those few pathetic guards of ours.

So please, keep your faux-indignation to yourself, and quit obfuscating the points or avoiding them. It seems to me that you are the one here with a "passion", or better put - a closed mind and a stiff-necked resistance to admitting this regime's criminality and failures.

You have assumed too much. You think I don't see failures? You think it doesn't **** me off when Rumsfeld gets on TV and talks about how healthy our military is and how we can keep pulling this off forever with no problems? You think I don't get frustrated with the blind loyalty Bush seems to show to him? I am quite certain we disagree on much in this area of failures and especially criminality, but you would never know to what extent because you don't want to give me the chance.

As with most supporters of Bush and the 'cons, you can't allow the facts to confuse you. But ignoring the facts won't make them go away, I can assure you of that.

Again, did you read my last post to you? Christ man, stop putting me in this pigeon hole that you would love to fit me in! Your traditional arguments don't work on me. You don't know how to talk to someone who is not as polarized as you seem to be (one way or the other). News flash - much of America stands with me somewhere in the middle. And obnoxious people who don't understand that are a turn-off.

 

[darkboong]

News flash - much of America stands with me somewhere in the middle. And obnoxious people who don't understand that are a turn-off.

So rather than shooting the messenger bearing bad tidings you simply brand him obnoxious and ignore him instead...

The only way stuff is going to change (democratically) is if people become righteously obnoxious with the brutes in power and the collaborators who help them out by making excuses for them. Sitting on the Fence won't change a damn thing, this is a time for choosing sides. Unfortunately folks like yourself come across as being apologists for a bunch of unprincipled genocidal maniacs.

Even more unfortunate is the fact that the said unprincipled genocidal maniacs refuse to take any kind of responsibilty for their actions, and even worse they have maintained their unaccountablity. That means that the only avenue of attack left are the apologists, the fence-sitters and the fundamentalists. Folks like yourself will have to choose sides or continue to bear the brunt of the frustration and anger that those bastards have stirred up.

Personally, I am outraged that I will have to answer for the actions of that unprincipled, callous, lying scumbag that just got voted in again. Even worse, my taxes are paying for that ******* to keep his white smile, his sun-tan, his ****ing abysmally cut suits and his wife's Imelda Marcos fetish. When the **** hits the fan he will be safe and sound (and rich), whereas I and the ordinary folks I know and love will have to take the flak for his self-serving, ego-maniacal, immoral, blood-thirsty and contrarian decisions.

Not even Ghandi sat on his **** while the apologists raved, why the hell should we be any different ?

 

[roadhog]

So rather than shooting the messenger bearing bad tidings you simply brand him obnoxious and ignore him instead...

Your recognition of the irony is acknowledged. BUT, my point is that it is cool with me if someone vehemently disagrees with me, but at least be mature about the whole thing and don't brush me off as some ill-read, closed minded, non-intellectual simply because we disagree. And by the way, Wurm doesn't even seem to care if I do or don't agree with him.

Davidmc and I have virtually never agreed on anything (and I would guess he agrees with Wurm on many things - though I would never want to put words in his mouth), yet he handles himself in a way in which I enjoy exchanging with him...and he seems VERY passionate about his beliefs. I respect his opinions, and although he hates mine, I think he seems to respect mine as well. It's cool to be passionate. We need passionate people. It's not cool to assume anyone who disagrees is not worthy of the respect of a mature conversation.

Sitting on the Fence won't change a damn thing, this is a time for choosing sides. Unfortunately folks like yourself come across as being apologists for a bunch of unprincipled genocidal maniacs.

I don't consider myself a "fence sitter" just because I'm not extreme one way or the other. I have firm conviction in my beliefs. Just because a leader at any given time doesn't fit into all my firmly held convictions does not make me a fence sitter. It makes me a very normal part of our population. And the normal part of our population sees no point one way or the other in waving around pictures of Bush's image morphed into that of a monkey. THAT is wasted passion.

Folks like yourself will have to choose sides or continue to bear the brunt of the frustration and anger that those bastards have stirred up.

Ok, you win. I choose NOT to be on whatever team you and Wurm are on. Fair enough? (that's a joke - before one of you uses it as some sort of evidence...)

 

[jhuskey]

Your recognition of the irony is acknowledged. BUT, my point is that it is cool with me if someone vehemently disagrees with me, but at least be mature about the whole thing and don't brush me off as some ill-read, closed minded, non-intellectual simply because we disagree. And by the way, Wurm doesn't even seem to care if I do or don't agree with him.

Davidmc and I have virtually never agreed on anything (and I would guess he agrees with Wurm on many things - though I would never want to put words in his mouth), yet he handles himself in a way in which I enjoy exchanging with him...and he seems VERY passionate about his beliefs. I respect his opinions, and although he hates mine, I think he seems to respect mine as well. It's cool to be passionate. We need passionate people. It's not cool to assume anyone who disagrees is not worthy of the respect of a mature conversation.

I don't consider myself a "fence sitter" just because I'm not extreme one way or the other. I have firm conviction in my beliefs. Just because a leader at any given time doesn't fit into all my firmly held convictions does not make me a fence sitter. It makes me a very normal part of our population. And the normal part of our population sees no point one way or the other in waving around pictures of Bush's image morphed into that of a monkey. THAT is wasted passion.


Ok, you win. I choose NOT to be on whatever team you and Wurm are on. Fair enough? (that's a joke - before one of you uses it as some sort of evidence...)

Roadhog I can relate to what you are saying. If you down that fence line you are on I am one of the guy trying to repair it.

 

[limerickman]

Once again Lim-succinctly put. I submit that it is the current regime errr...I mean-administration that is conducting itself as a "bull in a china shop". Iraq (ill-planned quagmire), Abu Ghraib (speaks for itself), renditions for the purpose of torture (a proven, "failed technique"), promotion or commendation of confirmed feck ups in his gang, ect...does not meet w/ praise, in the int'l community.

Merci Dave.