flat bars vs drops (again)

Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I also went over to my road bike and tried the brake levers. Sure enough, I use my first and
second fingers... not ring and pinkie. However, I can see that with a slight adjustment of the
levers, I would be using the weaker fingers more.

Don't make that adjustment.

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 17:42:01 GMT, Mike Latondresse

mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca said:

Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I also went over to my road bike and tried the brake levers. Sure enough, I use my first and
second fingers... not ring and pinkie. However, I can see that with a slight adjustment of the
levers, I would be using the weaker fingers more.

Don't make that adjustment.

The (I thought) obvious point is that there are those with the levers adjusted in similar fashion,
and would therefor notice that they are using less powerful fingers for braking. I might assume that
they have their levers that way for comfort reasons, or maybe just because that's where they were
when they got the bike. Either way, they would feel that braking was less powerful on drop bars
because of it. Adjustments to equipment can make a huge difference. Either way, though I think the
action you make with your fingers is quite different on road brake levers from the hoods than with
flat bar brakes. I would welcome a more natural braking action (not to mention a more natural
shifting action) on road bars.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Rick Onanian:

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How: They'd post to threads like this one. Why: They can't get "what they really need".

Nope. They can't get what they really need now, since there are no alternatives to the dropbar, so
why complain? You still haven't proved anything.

What are you, dense? Why complain? Because "they can't get what they really need now", that's why!
Am I the only person who would complain if I couldn't get what I really need? No, lots of others
would too.

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Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to "cope"
with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

Ah, but others do; look at the other posts. However, when people like

Well, which is it? I thought you were saying that those for whom the bars are less than adequate do
not complain. Now you believe that they DO complain.

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you state that there is no need to complain, you then need to defend your proclamations and that is
not a sustainable position, for lack of tenable arguments.

The people who need to complain, do. Even you agree that people complain. Why would you think that
the people who _aren't_ complaining have some need to complain?

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an argument for the dropbar being the ultimate in handlebar design, it's

It certainly isn't such an argument. However, "not the ultimate in handlebar design" is not the
same as "barely adequate".

It is for me, and for others who have posted as such.

You must think in binary -- for you, either it's "the ultimate in handlebar design", or it's "barely
adequate". Apparently, you believe there can't be something that's very good without being 100%
perfect (which is impossible to do, except on the basis of a custom-handlebar for an individual).

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merely that people are used to the design. Being content doesn't necessarily mean that the
design cannot be improved, nor that satisfaction level is at maximum.

If you're arguing that a different design would benefit some people, I won't argue against that.
However, to say that because it's not right for you, it must be wrong for everybody else (even
though it's a rare few that complain) is a fallacy.

You bring out a different situation than what exists. I have pointed out the inadequacy of the
design of the hoods/dropbar/brake lever arrangement, from a perspective of my comfort level in
operating this.

In other words, you meant that they're not right for _you_. You _said_, however, that they are
"barely adequate" for _anybody_.

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People then came out and stated that there is nothing wrong with the design, you just need
"instructions" on how to use it, or that one just

Well, it's pretty common that drop bars are good for somebody who doesn't yet know how to use them
or is not yet used to them. That's what such people were thinking.

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needs to get used to it since "I can endo without problems". These are the fallacies.

There's no fallacy in my braking power while riding on the hoods.

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Just as many other threads here, this brings to mind the Toby Keith lyrics "that might not work
for you / but it works for me".

You've just dropped your credibility by including this guy's work in your statements.

What do you suggest? 50 cent? I quoted from a song that was wholly about individual choice and
enjoying life.
--
Rick Onanian

Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Mike Latondresse mikelat@no_spamshaw.ca said:

Dan Brussee <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I also went over to my road bike and tried the brake levers. Sure enough, I use my first and
second fingers... not ring and pinkie. However, I can see that with a slight adjustment of the
levers, I would be using the weaker fingers more.

Don't make that adjustment.

The (I thought) obvious point is that there are those with the levers adjusted in similar fashion,
and would therefor notice that they are using less powerful fingers for braking.

Yes and if they had half a brain and the thing was adjusted like that (which I think is highly
unlikely because in all my years of riding I have never observed anyone braking with pinkies) they
would re-adjust it, not rocket science.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed Chait:

Quoted message said:

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:00:27 GMT, Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:
>Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to
"cope" with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

Read some of his other posts in other threads and you will discover the attitude that supports
this type of thinking.

Great. Total contribution to the issues raised: zero.

Only if you lack the gift of introspection.

Ed Chait

Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over the
world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

Oh yes, I remember this argument from other threads. It's the "every cyclist is the same and has
the same needs even when they have a different environment and different purposes for riding"
argument.

Utility cyclist != recreational cyclist. You != me. You != everybody. Me != everybody.

Hence, we have choices rather than all the same. For example, you can ride flat bars, or something
like this: performancebike.comcboProfile.cfmOpen ↗ or this:
cbike.comcin ram.jpgOpen ↗

Dear Rick,

That first handlebar gives a Vishnu-like caste to the term "prayer" bars:

performancebike.comcboProfile.cfmOpen ↗

Possibly popular among devout Hindus?

Carl Fogel

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Robert Strickland:

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Only because you have gotten used to it.

Says you. I never found it awkward, even from the beginning. Why is it that you're more of an
expert regarding what I find awkward and what I don't than I am?

Because unless you trained for using dropbars in your mother's womb, you (and anyone else) will
have had to have gotten used to it.

Maybe he found them convenient from the very beginning, like he says.

In that case he has only had to get used to it in the sense that one must equally get used to any
bar design.

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As I stated already, that's exactly what I already do. I don't use my ring or pinky finger while
braking..

But to say that the effort you exert to operate the lever from the hoods is the same as from a
flatbar is nonsense.

The difference in effort might not be (isn't, IMO) significant - just as it's more work for me to
scratch my nose with a more upright riding position because I must move my arm upwards, but that's
hardly an argument against such a position.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Robert Strickland:

Quoted message said:

Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars comfortable to use is by
"getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your experience, but it was not mine.

periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were born to ride dropbars? People get used
to it and become comfortable. Same thing happens with flat bars, but the comfort level there is
achieved faster.

Of course what Mr. Strickland is saying is that that is not his experience. It's not mine, either;
I've ridden flat bars on borrowed bikes for quite a while, and I find them very uncomfortable.

Quoted message said:

shape of one's bicycle handlebar, and tell me also about intended use of utility cyclists who ride
and haul cargo on bicycles all day.

You seem to have quietly ignored the points that utility cyclists do not typically ride flat bars,
and that they ride in a very upright position which clearly might be suited to a different bar type.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

David Damerell:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote: The difference seems to be that it causes wrist pain if ridden for any
length of time. If you don't get that, it's probably because you're used to it.

If you're saying that using a flat bar causes you wrist pain on long rides, then that's fair; but
are you seriously saying that operating the brake lever on a straight bar cause you wrist pain?

I don't know. The wrist pain does not come neatly labelled "hand position" or "operating the
brakes", so it is not clear what causes it.

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Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design.

I don't think anyone is claiming that.

Then you haven't read many of the posts.

I've read them all. I'd be intrigued to hear you quote anything that claims that the drop bar is
unimprovable.

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and that's it's superior to the flat bar;

Debatable.

I should have said "for the type of use I put bicycles to."

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and that it will not be easily improved upon.

Maybe.

Maybe, nothing. The drop handlebar has been in use for decades, and throughout that time people have
tried to think of ingenious handlebar designs.

Indeed, one might wonder why the drop bar was so widely adopted when introduced.

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Evidently with an upright posture the wrist issues with flat bars are not so great (and, indeed,
most of these people do not use straight-across flat bars, but bars that curve towards the rider.)

So what did you state about the superiority of dropbars?

Well, I explained that. I would not be surprised if for upright cyclists, the typical curved bar
shape (which of course is nothing like the flat bar popular on mountain bikes) is effective.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

nonsense. It's not difficult to obtain a simile of a dropbar in other countries. The usage that
tourers make of their bikes are quite similar to utility cyclists; the two groups carry reasonable
loads, travel similar distances, encounter similar roads. Why is it that most utility cyclists
anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

This is not true. Firstly, utility cyclists are typically upright. They will tend to travel at
slower speeds, not least because of the aerodynamic penalty. They carry a much wider range of loads,
from the laptop case of the German businessman to forty hens in a box in China (of course, here
we're starting to realise that "utility cyclists" are not a single category). They certainly do not
travel similar distances; a casual transportational cyclist will blanch at long distances, and
someone who uses a cargo bike as an adjunct to their job can hardly spend all day cycling.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

David Damerell:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Because you're used to it. Now look at the arrangement with a flat handlebar and brake lever. I
find it hard to believe you cannot see a difference

The difference seems to be that it causes wrist pain if ridden for any length of time. If you
don't get that, it's probably because you're used to it.

That's not even trying.

If you're saying that using a flat bar causes you wrist pain on long rides, then that's fair; but
are you seriously saying that operating the brake lever on a straight bar cause you wrist pain?

Quoted message said:

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Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design.

I don't think anyone is claiming that.

Then you haven't read many of the posts.

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I would claim that the drop bar is by and large good enough;

Agreed.

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and that's it's superior to the flat bar;

Debatable.

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and that it will not be easily improved upon.

Maybe.

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Look at utility cyclists all over the world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these
others are using.

Evidently with an upright posture the wrist issues with flat bars are not so great (and, indeed,
most of these people do not use straight-across flat bars, but bars that curve towards the rider.)

So what did you state about the superiority of dropbars?

Robert Strickland:

Quoted message said:

Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars comfortable to use is by
"getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your experience, but it was not mine.

Nonsense. Riding a bike takes getting used to, riding a particular bicycle type takes getting used
to, and riding any bike for prolonged periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were
born to ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same thing happens with flat
bars, but the comfort level there is achieved faster. If you claim that flat bars are unsuited to
you for long rides, fine, but to say that dropbars didn't take any getting used to is simply
childish exaggeration.

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It took no more getting used to than any other aspect of riding and certainly less than
clipless pedals.

Now you're just exaggerating. See above.

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As stated, I use the same two fingers to brake with road brake levers that I do with mtb brake
levers so while you may find it hard to believe, there is in fact no relevant difference.

Don't change the issue to suit your argument. The issue was the difference in hand/finger positions
in operating brake levers with dropbars and straight bars, and the difference in effort required. To
state that there is no difference is "delusional", or perhaps you just don't use flat bars.

Quoted message said:

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Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over
the world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

I've never claimed anything about "road bikers" as it relates to Western countries or the rest of
the world. I've simply refuted your claims about what I had to "get used to" in order to use road
brake levers.

No you didn't; you mentioned "majority" of road bikers. Your ethnocentricity is showing.

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Your experience may have been different but your claims about my experience are simply an
expression of your own dogma.

Or your own exaggerated claims.

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The simple fact that many people in other parts of the world ride bikes without drop bars shows
nothing about their comfort. Availability, custom and intended use are a few factors that would
play at least as important a role.

Ah, now you really show your ignorance. Tell me about availability of simply-formed pieces of steel
tubing in other parts of the world. While you're at it, why don't you also state how custom plays a
part in the shape of one's bicycle handlebar, and tell me also about intended use of utility
cyclists who ride and haul cargo on bicycles all day.

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I didn't mention delusion; don't be too defensive.

You imply that we're deluded when you claim that our stated preference for drop bars are,
unbeknownst to us, actually the result of having "gotten used to" something.

Fair enough, "deluded" does apply to you. I don't think others are though, even though "they" have
gotten used to something, same as everyone else.

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How is it that you understand our needs and experiences better than we do.

I have cut through your exaggerations and shown that you are basically arguing for the sake of it.

Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over the
world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

Oh yes, I remember this argument from other threads. It's the "every cyclist is the same and has
the same needs even when they have a different environment and different purposes for riding"
argument.

That'll be funny if you didn't really believe it, but I suspect you do. The argument that you
propound, that touring/road cyclists (implicitly referring to Western style road cycling, by your
posts) have unique requirements, such that they alone use dropbars with utter comfort, is nonsense.
It's not difficult to obtain a simile of a dropbar in other countries. The usage that tourers make
of their bikes are quite similar to utility cyclists; the two groups carry reasonable loads, travel
similar distances, encounter similar roads. Why is it that most utility cyclists anywhere in the
world don't use dropbars.

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Hence, we have choices rather than all the same.

Exactly, so why don't you consider this pronouncement of yours next time you carry on about the
superiority of the dropbar?

Robert Strickland:

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That's just nonsense. Both of my bikes have road brake levers and the hand position is not
awkward.

Only because you have gotten used to it.

Says you. I never found it awkward, even from the beginning. Why is it that you're more of an
expert regarding what I find awkward and what I don't than I am?

Because unless you trained for using dropbars in your mother's womb, you (and anyone else) will have
had to have gotten used to it. I wonder why you can't understand that?

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which means that only my index and middle fingers are needed to actuate the lever. The same two
fingers (and same requried finger strength) I'd use with straight handlebars.

The position of your index and middle fingers are much closer to the pivot point on brake levers
when your hands are on the hoods in a dropbar, than if your hands were on a flat handlebar. The
leverage is therefore much better on the latter.

If your grip on hoods and brake levers is so good, try it with just your index and middle finger
next time (exclude your ring and pinky by wrapping these on the dropbar, under the brake lever).

As I stated already, that's exactly what I already do. I don't use my ring or pinky finger while
braking..

But to say that the effort you exert to operate the lever from the hoods is the same as from a
flatbar is nonsense.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

Oh yes, I remember this argument from other threads. It's the "every cyclist is the same and has
the same needs even when they have a different environment and different purposes for riding"
argument.

That'll be funny if you didn't really believe it, but I suspect you do. The argument that you
propound, that touring/road cyclists (implicitly referring to Western style road cycling, by your
posts) have unique

Indeed, since Western style road cycling is where drop bars are most common, I expect that's what we
should implicitly and explicitly refer to.

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requirements, such that they alone use dropbars with utter comfort, is

Where do I make such an argument? Here's what I've said in another message in this thread: :Utility
cyclist != recreational cyclist. :You != me. :You != everybody. :Me != everybody. :Hence, we have
choices rather than all the same. For example, you :can ride flat bars, or something like this:
:performancebike.comcboProfile.cfmOpen ↗ :or this:
:cbike.comcin ram.jpgOpen ↗

That's the closest I can find to what you think I said, and it's not even close.

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nonsense. It's not difficult to obtain a simile of a dropbar in other

People everywhere are lazy and ride what comes on the bike (and buy the more common bikes more
commonly).

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countries. The usage that tourers make of their bikes are quite similar to utility cyclists; the
two groups carry reasonable loads, travel similar distances, encounter similar roads. Why is it
that most utility cyclists anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

Strange, last I heard, tourers go very long distances, while utility cyclists in other countries do
not go long distances. What makes you think that the roads are similar? And wouldn't you think that
priorities and goals are different?

Are you saying that the bars used by those utility cyclists are the best choice for tourers too? How
about the rest of the bike? Are tourers best served by this: giant-giant-Open ↗
bicycles.com/images/_upload_ch/bikes/models/zooms/2003/easycity_copy.jpg ?? Or this: giant-giant-Open ↗
bicycles.com/images/_upload_ch/bikes/models/zooms/2003/myway123_copy.jpg

Or is it just handlebars that should be one-shape-fits-all?

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Hence, we have choices rather than all the same.

Exactly, so why don't you consider this pronouncement of yours next time you carry on about the
superiority of the dropbar?

All I've done is defend the drop bar as a viable option. You have insinuated that the drop bar is no
good for anybody and should be extinct; you seem to believe that you know what is good for
everybody, and that the choice of drop bars should not be available. Is there anywhere that I've
said that drop bars are superior for anybody other than myself (and others who enjoy them)? You, on
the other hand, have insisted that they're terrible, even when people tell you just how good they
are for themselves.

From another message:

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David Damerell:

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I would claim that the drop bar is by and large good enough;

Agreed.

So now you agree that drop bars are good enough? Before, they were "barely adequate", and their
design "inherently flawed".

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and that it will not be easily improved upon.

Maybe.

You appeared to believe that they _would_ be easily improved upon, before.

From yet another message:

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Nonsense. Riding a bike takes getting used to, riding a particular bicycle type takes getting used
to, and riding any bike for prolonged periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were
born to ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same

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Robert Strickland:

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It took no more getting used to than any other aspect of riding and certainly less than clipless
pedals.

Now you're just exaggerating. See above.

Why do you think he's exaggerating? I was able to use drop bars quite well the first time I tried
them, and became proficient after a few hours. It took no less than a month before I was proficient
with clipless pedals. I suspect that Robert's experience is similar. If you've had trouble becoming
proficient with drop bars, then maybe they're not right for you; but to say that others couldn't
possibly have become proficient with them easily is talking out of your ass.

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you're at it, why don't you also state how custom plays a part in the shape of one's bicycle
handlebar,

You alluded to it:

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Of course. Come up with a design and patent it; be prepared to be shunned by the road racing crowd
though, if your design doesn't look "fast", isn't "aero", doesn't reduce weight, not made of
composite or exotic material, or if it offers too much comfort.

So, in your writing, the custom of how it looks plays a part in the shape of one's bicycle
handlebar.
--
Rick Onanian

"Jose Rizal"wrote ;

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Why is it that most utility cyclists anywhere in the world don't use dropbars.

The main reason is "Price"!!! When I was in Korea, four years ago, most of the better muliti-speed
bikes had drop bars. There really isn't much reason for drops on a low gear single speed utility
bike use to ride a couple of miles back and forth to work or the store.

Rod Raisanen Chillicothe, Oh

Rod Raisanen Chillicothe, Oh

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I have cut through your exaggerations and shown that you are basically arguing for the sake of it.

Pot/Kettle?

You're in too deep now, aren't you?

Ed Chait

Hey Jose, you previously questioned that drop bars could possibly provide four useful positions. I
mentioned the usual four, and left out several others that I use in between those four.

In this, you demontrate a basic lack of experience and understanding of the very subject you are
discussing.

If you were familiar with drop bars, I might be able to better accept your "lone voice in the
wilderness" proclamations, but as it stands, you just seem to be trying to save face.

Ed Chait

Jose Rizal said:

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Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars comfortable to use is by
"getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your experience, but it was not mine.

Nonsense. Riding a bike takes getting used to, riding a particular bicycle type takes getting used
to, and riding any bike for prolonged periods takes getting used to. Are you saying that you were
born to ride dropbars? People get used to it and become comfortable. Same thing happens with flat
bars, but the comfort level there is achieved faster. If you claim that flat bars are unsuited to
you for long rides, fine, but to say that dropbars didn't take any getting used to is simply
childish exaggeration.

Who's talking nonsense here? I readily admitted that riding a bike takes getting used to. I submit,
however, that for myself using drop bars and road brake levers took less getting used to than
learning to balance as a child, learning to shift gears efficiently, and getting used to clipless
pedals. In other words, there was no problem to be solved for me (and I suspect many others)
regarding drop bars.

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It took no more getting used to than any other aspect of riding and certainly less than clipless
pedals.

Now you're just exaggerating. See above.

You're starting to look silly now. Many people have discussed the difficulty of getting used to
clipless pedals and I can speak authoritatively about my case. It's a fact that it took me longer to
get used to clipless than it did for me to get used to drop bars. I don't know how you're so well
positioned to judge my experiences better than I am but I'd be interested to hear it.

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As stated, I use the same two fingers to brake with road brake levers that I do with mtb brake
levers so while you may find it hard to believe, there is in fact no relevant difference.

Don't change the issue to suit your argument. The issue was the difference in hand/finger
positions in operating brake levers with dropbars and straight bars, and the difference in effort
required. To state that there is no difference is "delusional", or perhaps you just don't use
flat bars.

I didn't change the issue, you did. You asserted that road bike levers force one to use his/her ring
and pinky finger for braking and I counter-asserted that in at least one case (and others have
concurrred) that you are dead wrong. You're the one changing the argument to one of 'effort
required'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over
the world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

I've never claimed anything about "road bikers" as it relates to Western countries or the rest of
the world. I've simply refuted your claims about what I had to "get used to" in order to use road
brake levers.

No you didn't; you mentioned "majority" of road bikers. Your ethnocentricity is showing.

Now you're just hoping to lose everyone in word games. I mentioned road bikers, which for me means
people who ride road bikes with drop bars and road brake levers. I wasn't talking about utility
bike riders in other countries as they don't use drop bars. I wasn't being ethnocentric (and I
take your remark personally), I was being road bike centric. You'd like to make the claim that the
mere fact that many people elsewhere in the world ride utility bikes with non-drop bars (note:
most don't use mtb bars either) somehow substantiates your ridiculous claims about drop bars. Of
course you conveniently ignore the fact that there are other contributing factors to their choice
of bike and bar.

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Your experience may have been different but your claims about my experience are simply an
expression of your own dogma.

Or your own exaggerated claims.

Now you don't even make logical sense. How can your claims about my experience be expressions of my
exaggerated claims (which by the way weren't exaggerated).

Quoted message said:

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The simple fact that many people in other parts of the world ride bikes without drop bars shows
nothing about their comfort. Availability, custom and intended use are a few factors that would
play at least as important a role.

Ah, now you really show your ignorance. Tell me about availability of simply-formed pieces of
steel tubing in other parts of the world. While you're at it, why don't you also state how custom
plays a part in the shape of one's bicycle handlebar, and tell me also about intended use of
utility cyclists who ride and haul cargo on bicycles all day.

So you're claiming that drop bars are as available and affordable as utility bike handlebars
everywhere in the world, that different cultures don't have different preferences when it comes to
the style of bicycle they tend to ride, and that the intended purpose of a bike doesn't have any
effect on the choice of handlebars. Wow, who's the ignorant one here? I suspect those who get around
by bicycle in out-of-the-way places in Asia would be surprised to hear you suggest that they can
pick up a set of shiny new drop bars for a reasonable price right around the corner. Or that the
Dutch would be surprised to find out from you that the traditional shape of the Hollander bike
(note: they don't use mtb bars) was not a development of culture despite the fact that the bike is
so identified with Dutch culture that it's called the Hollander. Or maybe utility bike users the
world over would agree with you that the fact that they tend to travel short distances, with lots of
gear and are unconcerned with aerodynamics plays no role whatsoever in their choice of bike design.

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Quoted message said:

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I didn't mention delusion; don't be too defensive.

You imply that we're deluded when you claim that our stated preference for drop bars are,
unbeknownst to us, actually the result of having "gotten used to" something.

Fair enough, "deluded" does apply to you. I don't think others are though, even though "they" have
gotten used to something, same as everyone else.

And how, precisely, am I deluded about my own experiences regarding mtb and drop bars. In what
relevant way are your judgements about my experience more accurate than my own? Of course we've
gotten used to something but you make that sound as if it's some critical hurdle to overcome where
drop bars are concerned. I would maintain that you're criteria of "getting used to something" is a
smokescreen because it plays no role. Getting used to drop bars was in my case a non-issue.

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How is it that you understand our needs and experiences better than we do.

I have cut through your exaggerations and shown that you are basically arguing for the sake of it.

No you didn't (because I wasn't exaggerating anything) and no I'm not. I'm arguing that your claims
about the supposed problems of drop bars are the exaggeration here (as have a number of others).
You're doing everything you can to defend your smug and empty claim that our preference for drop
bars stems from a stubborn refusal to accept that we've simply 'gotten used to them' but that mtb
bars are better. Your argument has failed because it's not an argument, it's a preference.

Rob Strickland

Rod Raisanen said:

"David Damerell wrote

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I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the crossbar, regardless of their frame design.

This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame?

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Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the >handlebars. This is only unfeasible if
you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long >skirt, which few riders of either
gender do these days.

I would add: or are on the front of a tandem. I swing my leg over the handlebars - my stoker is very grateful!
On my singles, I have both drops (racing and touring) and flat bars(hybrid tandem and mtb) with bar ends. I'm still working on dialing in the most comfortable drop bar position for me, but I'm leaning toward a "Rivendellish" setup with bars about the same height as the saddle. The hoods are at a comfy height, and I use the drops more than I would otherwise, since my middle aged back is not as flexible as it was when I was in my twenties and racing . . .