flat bars vs drops (again)

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Mike S.' mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

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I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have

been

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riding mostly on roads, so the other day I tried out a touring bike

with

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drop bars. Here are my impressions:

The really amazing thing about this troll is that so many of y'all

actually

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jumped into it with both feet.

Well, we haven't had a good firestorm about drop vs flat recently, so we're all rearing to go!

Well, it IS winter, so have at it.

Mike

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Mike

--
Rick Onanian

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You will also note that operation of the brake lever from the hands-on-hoods position is quite
different from the flat bars case, in that in the former, the grasp of the strongest fingers is
located above the pivot of the levers, requiring the weaker ring and pinkie fingers to do most of
the work. I can't vouch for the credibility of anyone who can think that this is anything but bad
design. Operating the lever from the drops is better, provided that the reach is adequate, but
since most people spend most of their time on the hoods, it only makes sense to make the brake
levers as easy and effective to operate from that position as in the drops.

I find it hard to believe that you've ever ridden a bike with drop bars and road brake levers. Both
of my bikes have road brake levers (one Shimano the other Campy). In neither case do I apply
pressure on the brake lever with my pinkie finger or ring finger. In both cases my index finger and
middle finger provide the force to move the lever while my pinkie and ring finger rest under the
lever on the bar providing leverage. There is no difficulty in braking (I can easily lock the wheels
if I want to) and I find the position quite comfortable, not just acceptable.

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And it is the oldtimer who has difficulty seeing past what s/he's used to.

Apparently, in your world, the majority of road bikers are oldtimers who don't know what's good for
them and are too stupid or unimaginative to think about alternatives. The fact is that drop bars
work and work well for most people who ride road bikes for any length of time. Just because you feel
differently doesn't mean the rest of us are stubborn or deluded.

Rob Strickland

Jose Rizal said:

Matt O'Toole:

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I disagree with your assertion that braking is awkward from the hoods. With my late model
Ultegras, it's actually easier from the hoods than the drops. Especially with an ergonomic bar,
there's too long a reach in the drops.

That is correct. This comes about because a compromise needs to be reached when positioning the
levers on a dropbar: one needs to decide what position is going to be most used. For dropbars,
since most people ride on the hoods most of the time, the levers are positioned appropriately
close to the top part, and the higher the levers are, the more difficult they are to operate from
the drops.

My point is not that it's easier to operate the levers from the drops (unless you position these
accordingly), but that hand position while on the hood makes for an awkward grasp of the brake
lever, especially when you consider the design of the lever, its pivot location, and when you
compare the grasp you can achieve on levers in straight handlebars.

That's just nonsense. Both of my bikes have road brake levers and the hand position is not awkward.
Either you haven't used road brake levers recently or yours are postitioned badly. The pivot
location on mine (Shimano
600/Campy Veloce) are rougly equal with my first finger joint, which means that only my index and
middle fingers are needed to actuate the lever. The same two fingers (and same requried finger
strength) I'd use with straight handlebars.

Rob Strickland

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 02:11:18 +0000 (UTC),
<[email hidden]>

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Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference.

_ If your "preference" is to ride in the position with least control and most extreme angles, then
I would suggest that something is wrong.

On the hoods, I have great control and gentle angles. On the tops, I'm more upright, and in the
drops I'm lower. The hoods are the middle gripping position, with a position in either direction to
adjust for different needs when they arise.

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_ If you want to get the most out of drop bars, you should be riding in the drops. If you set up
the bike so that riding on the

Indeed, when you're looking to get the most (or the most speed, anyway), the drops are the place to
be. For cruising, the hoods are a great compromise between the drops and the tops. For relaxing, the
tops are where you go.

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hood's is the most comfortable position, all the other positions will be uncomfortable. The drops
will be too low, the lower flats way too low, the upper flats too close. The position of the

Yes, that's quite the point. The hoods are right in the middle. It sounds to me like you think that
you should always ride in the drops and never move your hands.

It doesn't matter what part of a multi-position bar you set as the most comfortable position; by
definition, doing so will result in all the other positions being less comfortable -- if they don't,
then the part you just set for is in an equally comfortable position, not the _most_ comfortable.
Further, any bar that allows you to set all of it's pieces in equally comfortable positions won't
offer you any different positions for different needs.

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bars has everything to do with fit. It's the hardest part to get right.

We can agree on that, anyway.

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_ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

Is PGP really necessary for public newsfroup postings?
--
Rick Onanian

Peter Cole said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote: Er, I picked up some rear-indexed DT
shifters for 15 quid (c. $21) just the other day.

Er, that's a good price. New or used? Brand? Speeds?

NOS, Shimano (probably something low-end, but a shifter is a shifter), 7-speed. But I see that SJS
Cycles have 8- and 9- speed DT levers for only slightly higher prices.

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Of course I was comparing integrated shifter/brake levers, so even with DT shifters you've got to
add brake levers to compare apples.

That's true - and I'm sure it _will_ cost more, but I suspect I can still do it well under $100.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

David Damerell:

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Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote: But that's because drop bars are nearly always mounted too low. That's
not an inherent flaw in their design.

With a profile height of around 8 inches, dropbars will afford only one one hand position at a
height which is the most comfortable for most of the time (and hence used more often), rather than
multiple positions which are all equally comfortable.

I don't think that's true at all. I find drops and hoods equally comfortable; I use one or the other
depending on whether aerodynamics or breathing are most important.

I shun flat bars not merely because the wrist position is uncomfortable, but because one cannot make
this tradeoff.

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As I say, I experience no difficulty using the brakes from the hoods.

No difficulty, but is it the easiest position to operate the levers for modulation? No. You're just
used to it.

Well, perhaps I've had to develop some hand muscles I wouldn't otherwise have, but I don't see that
as an issue - after all, I've had to develop leg muscles to use a bike well, too.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Harald said:

Having to move your hands every time you need to shift or slam on the brakes just doesn't make
sense to me. Why should roadies settle for second best?

I don't have to move my hands every time I want to brake. I only must do this when riding on
the tops; and I only ride on the tops up extremely steep hills, where slamming on the brakes is
not an issue.

I find it hard to see moving my hand 2" to shift as really being a great issue. It seems evident
that many riders share this opinion, given the incomplete takeup of STI/Ergo even amongst riders for
whom the cost is not an issue.

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Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. Just ahead
of your hands would be mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within easy reach
of your fingers. You would get all the hand positions that are available with drop bars, plus, you
would get EFFECTIVE braking and shifting at your fingertips.

Except in the drops, where I can't reach the brakes at all. And what position do drop bar users use
when going fastest, when braking is most important.

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If you aren't convinced that v-brakes and rapid-fires at your fingertips would be a lovely thing,
go to your LBS and try out a flat-bar bike around town.

Or one of the flat-bar bikes at work. Which I have. The brakes are kind of grabby, but otherwise no
worse than my own. What's your point?

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I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or some
other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

And this hasn't happened in the decades that drop bars have been in service because...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

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In article said:

dvt said:

Not everyone will agree on this; I understand that. But I think the proper choice for *most*
folks is hands on drops and the appropriate handlebar position to make that comfortable.

You are of a minority position. The drops are used when the rider wants/needs to get out of the
wind more, in headwinds, downhills, sprints, and at the front of a paceline.

_ Try it if you can find a bike that will allow it. It's really much more comfortable in the long
run. It's only a minority opinion because most road bikes in the shops today are setup to be
criterium racers. A bike that's optimized for a 1-2 hr race in which you make a hundred or more
turns seem widely inappropriate for most road riding use to me.

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If you have the bars so high that you are in the drops all the time, what do you do when you have a
headwind?

_ Bend my elbows? If you can't bend your elbows, then you're carrying weight on your arms which is
very tiring and uncomfortable in the long run. There also the lower flats, which nobody seems to
use anymore.

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The point of multiposition bars is to have useful choices, and if your cruising position is in the
drops, what good are the tops or the hoods?

_ Lots, good for taking a rest and switching muscle use, climbing and signalling to other racers
that you're about to crack. Back when I used to race, I would always watch for somebody riding the
hoods. Maybe is all just fashion, but I would suggest actually trying it before dimissing years of
experience.

_ Booker C. Bense

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"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Harald said:

doubt, try a bike with quality v-brakes. You will be amazed at the

stopping

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power and the light pull required.

Once again, any well adjusted, well designed brake will lift/lock the rear wheel. How _can_ you
have more braking than that?

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I take your point that some instruction may be necessary. My counter-point is that using brakes
on flat bars is intuitive and requires no instruction.

This is not the case, since (especially with the grabby nature of Vs) the front brake must be used
with caution.

I'm not sure what you mean by "grabby". Brakes considered "powerful" often just have more mechanical
advantage. The tradeoff there is rim clearance. Some brake designs have been reported to have a non-
linear response, I haven't seen that in cheap or expensive v-brakes.

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Bunk. The typical mountain bike these days - certainly the most popular - is a $150 gaspipe
clunker which is cripplingly heavy; the rider is faced with suspension components that present a
baffling adjustment and maintenance challenge (easy to use?) and are of such low quality that the
bike is of less utility for offroad riding that an unsuspended frame.

I have a couple of family bikes with cheap (~$50) suspension forks. They work ok, they're a little
heavy and probably won't have a terrific service life. On the other hand, they make a real
difference in off-road riding, both for comfort and control. Adjustment is typically limited to a
single preload screw, and maintenance to occasional greasing of the sliders. I wouldn't bother with
them for road riding, pedal bob, fork dive and the limited lifetime makes them more trouble than
they're worth. For people who don't ride much, I don't think they're all that bad, they're (along
with fat tires) a little more tolerant of road hazards, some people find that reassuring.

I think one of the things that puts people off from drop bars (besides them often being set up
wrong) is that the narrower width makes steering feel less secure, especially when riding on the
tops & hoods.

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We should not be afraid of new innovations

But we should examine them closely to see if they represent any real improvement.

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available. I accept your suggestion that training and experience would

help

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become more proficient with the system currently in use. On the other

hand,

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sometimes it is the newcomer that can point out shortcomings in the status quo because he has
different expectations.

Oh, don't start claiming you have some amazing insight not available to the rest of us. We have
all _been_ newcomers, and there have always been newcomers for as long as drop bars have been in
use. When first invented, every rider was new to them.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

"David Damerell wrote

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I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the >crossbar,

regardless of their frame design.

This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame? That is the
way I have always mounted a bike. I never really paid attention to how other people mount their
bikes but I thought everone did it this way. It does get kind of hard to do when my bike is on a
trainer and it adds about 2" to the height.

Rod Raisanen Chillicothe Ohio

To reply remove garbage

Peter Cole said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

This is not the case, since (especially with the grabby nature of Vs) the front brake must be used
with caution.

I'm not sure what you mean by "grabby".

I find with many V-brakes it is difficult to brake hard enough to lift the rear wheel, because it is
much easier when attempting to do that to brake too hard.

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Bunk. The typical mountain bike these days - certainly the most popular - is a $150 gaspipe
clunker which is cripplingly heavy; the rider is faced with suspension components that present a
baffling adjustment and maintenance challenge (easy to use?) and are of such low quality that the
bike is of less utility for offroad riding that an unsuspended frame.

I have a couple of family bikes with cheap (~$50) suspension forks. T

This is a different scale of cheap, though; a $150 FS bike does not have a $50 suspension fork,
I believe.

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I think one of the things that puts people off from drop bars (besides them often being set up
wrong) is that the narrower width makes steering feel less secure, especially when riding on the
tops & hoods.

Although I prefer quite narrow bars (42cm, currently - although my father uses 36cm, which I find
horrible) I sympathise with Rivendell's contention that generally they could do with being wider.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Rod Raisanen said:

"David Damerell wrote

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I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the crossbar, regardless of their frame design.

This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame?

Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the handlebars. This is only unfeasible if
you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long skirt, which few riders of either
gender do these days.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Sheldon Brown said:

David Damerell wrote

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Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the handlebars. This is only unfeasible
if you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long skirt, which few riders of either
gender do these days.

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

I have to admit, I don't understand this - surely the stoker bars on a tandem are not significantly
above the saddle?

I find I can clear a second pannier rack strapped upside down to the existing one - provided I
remember it's there. Otherwise it's a little painful when I accidentally put the boot into it.

[Given the number of racks I've broken this year, this has been a problem...]
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Harald said:

The suggestion that I came up with for a new bar design (quoted below) is just a different
compromise. The advantage would be better braking and shifting from the most popular hand position.
The disadvantage would be that the brakes and shifters would be a long way from all the other hand
positions.

Including the one that's used at high speeds, rendering it utterly demented.

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Would this be a better compromise? Probably not. Does this mean that a better design is impossible?
Probably not. Hopefully this discussion has got some people thinking.

Oh, for God's sake. You haven't had some kind of fundamental insight; you aren't bringing the
shocking news that one doesn't have to use drop bars. None of this is in any way insightful or new.

Now, people who've actually evolved a definite unconventional bar design, or who choose to
manufacture or sell them, that's interesting. Saying "drops are not nice for everyone" is
just guffing.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Mike S. said:

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

The really amazing thing about this troll is that so many of y'all actually jumped into it with
both feet.

It's winter, remember?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The _`\(,_ | common welfare was my
business; charity, mercy, forbearance, (_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The
dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!" --
Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

Quoted message said:

David, I presume that you ride a road bike and love it. You wouldn't catch me (or most people) on
a road bike for the following reasons; The riding position is too stretched out and the bars are
too low - especially in the drops. Us regular riders want to enjoy life - we are not just
interested in pure speed. There is only one way to get on and off the bike - the old fashioned
way. The tires are far too tiny. You need to keep them rock-hard or they pinch flat. The rock-hard
tires result in a harsh ride that is just no fun. The gearing is too tall.- ok for racers maybe,
but 99% of us don't race.

Well, you're welcome to ride whatever kind of bike you like but your observations about road bikes
are gross generalization that just don't hold up.

If you're too stretched out or the bars are too low then either the bike is too big for you or
you've set it up badly. Further more, road bike tires come in a large variety of sizes. I use
everything from 700cx28 to 700cx37. They aren't rock hard, nor is the ride harsh. You don't have to
ride 23's if you don't want to. Lastly, I would agree that stock gearing on road bikes is generally
too tall but again, why not simply change the gearing. I use 50-39-26 chainrings and a 13-30
cassette on my sport tourer which is plenty low for hills and tall enough for a rider of my
strength. I'd have no use for a 22 granny and 32 or 34 large cog in the rear, which is quite common
on MTB's so either way, a bit of modification would be called for.

I ride a road bike (actually a touring bike and a sport-tourer) and have little or no interest in
speed. I like to ride long distances at a moderate pace and would never trade my bikes in for a
mountain bike. Keep your preference if you like but understand that the arguments you've given
aren't very convincing.

Rob Strickland

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:kOPBb.52251$bC.12742@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

David;

Thanks for your additional comments. Without belaboring this, just a couple of things;

I cannot argue with your discussion about various brake styles, except that you failed to mention
whether you have ever actually used v-brakes. Sometimes the technical stuff just fades into the
background when you try the goods in real life.

Among my various bikes, I have center & side pull caliper, canti & V, flat, swept, riser, ergo-drop,
classic drop, cowhorn, aerobars, twist shift, trigger shift, DT, stem & barend shift, doubles,
triples, fixed gears, smooth, treaded and studded tires, from 23 to 55 mm. It's all good (mostly).
Nothing magical about v-brakes (or flat bars), they have their strengths and weaknesses and
suitability to task like anything else. I enjoy riding a range of different bikes in a variety of
situations, from errand running to ultra-cycling events. Having one bike for everything is like
having one pair of shoes.

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Peter Cole said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole <[email hidden]> wrote: Er, I picked up some rear-indexed DT
shifters for 15 quid (c. $21) just the other day.

Er, that's a good price. New or used? Brand? Speeds?

NOS, Shimano (probably something low-end, but a shifter is a shifter), 7-speed. But I see that SJS
Cycles have 8- and 9- speed DT levers for only slightly higher prices.

Quoted message said:

Of course I was comparing integrated shifter/brake levers, so even with DT shifters you've got to
add brake levers to compare apples.

That's true - and I'm sure it _will_ cost more, but I suspect I can still do it well under $100.

Yeah, I'm sure that if you scrounge, you can do NOS shifters & brake levers for $60 or so, it's just
that I've scrounged the equivalent in MTB gear for $15. I think the difference is mostly
manufacturing volume.

bbense+rec.bicycles.tech.Dec.11.0 said:

_ Try it if you can find a bike that will allow it. It's really much more comfortable in the long
run. It's only a minority opinion because most road bikes in the shops today are setup to be
criterium racers.

My bike is set up the way I like it. No one should put up with a bike that is not set up for their
needs. But I do occasionally ride into headwinds, and downhills. Sprints are not my forte -- they
never were. But I want to have the drops available for those situations.

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A bike that's optimized for a 1-2 hr race in which you make a hundred or more turns seem widely
inappropriate for most road riding use to me.

A few parts can change all that.

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_ Bend my elbows? If you can't bend your elbows, then you're carrying weight on your arms which is
very tiring and uncomfortable in the long run. There also the lower flats, which nobody seems to
use anymore.

Riding for a long distance with the elbows bent that much would be worse, for me, than the wind. The
flats aren't that much lower, and I've always ridden in the hooks when on the drops so I had good
access to the brakes.

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race, I would always watch for somebody riding the hoods. Maybe is all just fashion, but I would
suggest actually trying it before dimissing years of experience.

I have a few years of experience myself to draw on, thanks.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can _`\(,_ | assure you that mine
are all greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

David Damerell wrote

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I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the crossbar, regardless of their frame design.

Rod Raisanen asked:

Quoted message said:

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This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame?

David:

Quoted message said:

Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the handlebars. This is only unfeasible
if you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long skirt, which few riders of either
gender do these days.

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

Another approach, that looks very cool, and is much easier than it looks is over the handlebars:

Hold the middle of the handlebar in your right hand.

Swing your right leg up and over. As your leg approaches your right arm, let go of the bars, and
then grab the bars with your left hand.

If your handlebars are lower than your saddle, this works very well. Indeed, most folks can raise
their thigh higher forwards than backwards.

It sounds scary, but it's actually quite easy, at least with drop bars at a fairly low position.

Being an old fart who needs the bars higher than I used to, I don't generally do this any more.

Sheldon "Over The Bars" Brown +-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. | Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the
| rest of his life. |
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Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
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