flat bars vs drops (again)

David L. Johnson:

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The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in your most likely
riding positon (on the hoods).

You should be able to apply plenty of force from the hoods. Someone needs to show you how. By
plenty of force I mean you can apply enough force on the front brake to lift the rear wheel.

This isn't really the issue. The issue of more importance is ability to modulate.

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One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar positon that most people find
most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Sure does. Road riders do that all the time. If you can't, it is not a reflection on the
equipment; you just need to be shown how to use it. Heck, I stopped from the hoods back when
brakes sucked. Watch some experienced road rider stop some time. Ask them how to do it before you
decide that the design that has been working fine for 50+ years is bad.

You're defining comfort to be the same as "being used to it". These are two different concepts.
Just because you're used to it does not mean the design is not flawed, nor does it mean that
improvement is not possible. The aim must be to adapt the equipment to the human body, and not the
other way around.

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Change for the sake of change is not innovation, as we now see with frames with holes in the
stays, frames with inferior geometry marketed as "stiffer", and other nonsense.

Handlebar ergonomics, especially when applied to traditional dropbars, do not fall under the same
"nonsense" issues as you think it does. To say that the dropbar is at the pinnacle of evolution in
terms of ease of use and comfort is just silly.

Matt O'Toole:

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I have no such problems with my wrists, etc. The lack of variety, and the less relaxed,"pushup"
position makes my shoulders tired and sore. For shorter rides, I find the MTB setup more natural
and comfortable, and more "in control" -- as do most people. But for longer rides, the drop bar, a
design that has evolved over 100 years, is a much better compromise.

The dropbar did not evolve over 100 hundred years for the better. If it were so, it would be used
all over the world, especially in countries where utility cyclists outnumber all recreational
cyclists in the US (China for example).

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Having to move your hands every time you need to shift or slam on the brakes just doesn't make
sense to me. Why should roadies settle for second best?

Some of us don't consider it "second best". If you want to have multiple hand positions available,
you either won't be able to reach the brakes from some of them, or you need multiple brake levers,
which would be a PITA. My hands are on the brake levers most of the time, and although there is some
minimal hand movement to shift using my bar-end shifters, it's so convenient that shifting becomes
unconscious.

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Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This
would be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

Just ahead of your hands would be mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within
easy reach of your fingers.

That's basically STI shifting. I've tried it, and found it more annoying to use than bar-
end shifters.

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If you aren't convinced that v-brakes and rapid-fires at your fingertips would be a lovely thing,
go to your LBS and try out a flat-bar bike around town.

I have this on one of my bikes. I don't find it to be an improvement, and the flat bars become very
annoying during long rides.

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I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or some
other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

Why do you suppose that no one has done this yet?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Accordion, n.: A bagpipe with pleats.

Benjamin Lewis:

Quoted message said:

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I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or some
other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

Why do you suppose that no one has done this yet?

Lack of support? Because people are more willing to suffer a barely adequate design than demand what
they really need? You only need to look at the number of posters here defending the superiority of
the drop bar design.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

David Damerell:

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Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily ride in the drops on the
flat and downhill, and while less braking is necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from
the hoods.

You've just gotten used to it; it says nothing for the awkward design which can be improved. Your
style of riding isn't typical; more people ride with hands on the hoods most of the time.

But that's because drop bars are nearly always mounted too low. That's not an inherent flaw in
their design.

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You're saying that you operate the brakes quite easily from the drops, and that's where your hands
are in the best position for maximum leverage with the brake levers. This is not so when your hands
are on the hoods.

As I say, I experience no difficulty using the brakes from the hoods.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Peter Cole said:

What gets me is the relative price difference between road & MTB

shifter/brake

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lever combos. It's hard to do anything much under $100 for indexed road shifting,

Er, I picked up some rear-indexed DT shifters for 15 quid (c. $21) just the other day.

Er, that's a good price. New or used? Brand? Speeds?

Of course I was comparing integrated shifter/brake levers, so even with DT shifters you've got to
add brake levers to compare apples.

Tom at Bruni Bicycles said; "This hard core roadie also noticed the less comfy flat bar ergonomics
and, figuring that my wrists like longitudinal hood type grip position, a 20 deg. sweep bar doubled
my MTB endurance"

Tom, it would seem to me that this bar would provide you with one very good hand position, but no
real alternatives to switch to when you need a change. Is this your experience?

Harald

"Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Jan Lindström wrote:

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As Jobst has pointed out, shifting is not a super-fast time-critical function in bicycling.

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Except in sprints, where instant shifts can make the difference between win and lose.

When riding with people a little stronger than myself, I'm often able to keep up just because I
shift smarter, to take better advantage of terrain changes -- a skill acquired from years of
mountain biking, which my comrades have not had. Of course, this is only an issue where the terrain
is particularly changeable -- which it is around here -- and the little efficiencies do add up.
Anyone on a DT shifter bike is usually OTB, unless they're particularly strong. Where the grades are
steadier (and there's less shifting), shifting matters less.

Also, stronger riders tend to be efficient over a wider range of cadences, so shifting matters less
to them. Think of a V8-powered sports car with a three speed automatic transmission, vs. a diesel
truck with a multi-gear, multi-range transmission. The higher power to weight ratio, and wider
powerband, makes up for any deficiencies in gearing, and vice versa.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole:

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I disagree with your assertion that braking is awkward from the hoods. With my late model
Ultegras, it's actually easier from the hoods than the drops. Especially with an ergonomic bar,
there's too long a reach in the drops.

That is correct. This comes about because a compromise needs to be reached when positioning the
levers on a dropbar: one needs to decide what position is going to be most used. For dropbars, since
most people ride on the hoods most of the time, the levers are positioned appropriately close to the
top part, and the higher the levers are, the more difficult they are to operate from the drops.

My point is not that it's easier to operate the levers from the drops (unless you position these
accordingly), but that hand position while on the hood makes for an awkward grasp of the brake
lever, especially when you consider the design of the lever, its pivot location, and when you
compare the grasp you can achieve on levers in straight handlebars.

Harald:

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You should be able to apply plenty of force from the hoods. Someone needs to show you how. By
plenty of force I mean you can apply enough force on the front brake to lift the rear wheel.

I take your point that some instruction may be necessary. My counter-point is that using brakes on
flat bars is intuitive and requires no instruction.

You will also note that operation of the brake lever from the hands-on-hoods position is quite
different from the flat bars case, in that in the former, the grasp of the strongest fingers is
located above the pivot of the levers, requiring the weaker ring and pinkie fingers to do most of
the work. I can't vouch for the credibility of anyone who can think that this is anything but bad
design. Operating the lever from the drops is better, provided that the reach is adequate, but since
most people spend most of their time on the hoods, it only makes sense to make the brake levers as
easy and effective to operate from that position as in the drops.

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I might also suggest that you may be used to the situation, but if a newcomer finds it awkward,
perhaps there is a better solution out there, if we look for one.

Indeed.

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One should be able to shift and brake directly from the handlebar

positon

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that most people find most comfortable most of the time. Now wouldn't that make sense?

Sure does. Road riders do that all the time. If you can't, it is not a reflection on the
equipment; you just need to be shown how to use it. Heck, I stopped from the hoods back when
brakes sucked. Watch some experienced road rider stop some time. Ask them how to do it before
you decide that the design that has been working fine for 50+ years is bad.

Change for the sake of change is not innovation, as we now see with frames with holes in the
stays, frames with inferior geometry marketed as "stiffer", and other nonsense.

I agree that change for the sake of change is not productive. But I also feel that ergonomics can
be improved, and that the technology to do it is available.

But if the market is not there, the status quo stays. We all know what it takes to change the
market, and it's an uphill battle.

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I accept your suggestion that training and experience would help become more proficient with the
system currently in use. On the other hand, sometimes it is the newcomer that can point out
shortcomings in the status quo because he has different expectations.

And it is the oldtimer who has difficulty seeing past what s/he's used to.

Harald said:

David

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Not really. The force angle of the pads against the rim is almost 45 degrees, while caliper
brakes hit the rims at nearly 90 degrees.

I hope that you are not confusing v-brakes with cantilever brakes. Cantilever brakes are good, v-
brakes are better, with a horizontal cable pull.

The cable pull is not relevant. Both cantis and v-brakes pivot around the same point, which is well
below and outside of the rim. Draw a circle, centered at that brake pivot, so that it touches the
rim at the center of the braking flat. Now look at the angle of that contact. Despite the fact that
the pad is parallel to the braking flat, the motion of the pad is not perpendicular to the flat, but
at very close to 45 degrees. Only with caliper brakes and hydrolic systems do you get pad force
(tangential to motion) nearly perpendicular to the flats.

Center-pulls and u-brakes are actually better in this regard, for those rims that have braking flats
at a slight angle, like old-fashioned ones did.

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Both cantilevers and v-brakes have stronger dual mounting points compared to a single mounting
point for caliper brakes.

Wrong again. A caliper brake puts no braking force on the pivot, but either a canti or a v-brake
pushes the pivots outward. That's why some mountain bike forks have extra stiffeners in front of
the crown.

Both types also have forces on the pivots coming from the rotation of the wheel; I'm referring here
only to the forces from the braking pressure only.

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Caliper brakes may be just fine for riding in the countryside, but for dealing with traffic and
touring with a load, I feel more confident having v-brakes.

I won't address your feelings, but this is a technical forum.

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If you have any doubt, try a bike with quality v-brakes. You will be amazed at the stopping power
and the light pull required.

So? If I can easily pull hard enough to raise the rear wheel, that is all the stopping force I can
generate. Even old sidepulls give me that.

(I know, I

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know, racers use calipers at high speed etc. etc. I am not saying that calipers are [censored], just
that I think v-brakes are better for many applications.)

Sure. They are better for large tires.

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If they don't work perfectly, it is an adjustment issue. Their design is quite good -- except
that they are not servicable.

In talking with road riders(and reading newsgroups), I hear comments about frequent adjustments
required on STI shifters.

Not in this group you don't. Did you just make that up? Those things are pretty much set and go. You
only have to adjust them when you replace the cable.

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No it's not. It's a ploy to 1) encourage mountain bikers to buy a road bike, and 2) get away with
making frames in 3 sizes.

Ever since I started riding as a kid, I worried about "cracking my nuts" on the crossbar.

That again, is your feeling, not reality. A properly sized standard bike is no more likely to crack
nuts than one with a sloping top tube. If you do crash in such a way as to head for the bar, where
would it be?  Near the stem, where the heights are the same.

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The gearing on my MTB allows me to ride up anything that I come across. If you look at new touring
bikes today, you will see that they have mountain bike rear derailleurs,

You have that backwards. Tourists had them first.

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and a tremendous gear range. I am not suggesting that broad range touring gearing hasn't been
available all along, but the average bike did not have it.

But it was always available at any decent bike shop for little money.

Mountain bikes are so

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popular because they provide an easy to use, practical product readily available to the
average rider.

They are popular for the same reason SUVs are popular; perceptions which are at odds with reality.
Both work well off-road (except for the large SUVs which would be a disaster off-road), but are not
suited for long distances on the road.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can _`\(,_ | assure you that mine
are all greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

David Damerell:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

David Damerell:

Quoted message said:

Try raising the bars, and with correctly adjusted brakes. I ordinarily ride in the drops on the
flat and downhill, and while less braking is necessarily uphill, I can brake perfectly well from
the hoods.

You've just gotten used to it; it says nothing for the awkward design which can be improved. Your
style of riding isn't typical; more people ride with hands on the hoods most of the time.

But that's because drop bars are nearly always mounted too low. That's not an inherent flaw in
their design.

With a profile height of around 8 inches, dropbars will afford only one one hand position at a
height which is the most comfortable for most of the time (and hence used more often), rather than
multiple positions which are all equally comfortable. For many this one position is at the hoods,
and hence the height of the dropbar is dictated by the height of the hoods at their most
comfortable. The levers are positioned to cater for this hand position also, and therefore the reach
afforded when hands are on the drops is compromised. On the one hand, the easiest lever position
when riding on the drops requires the levers to be positioned all the way down, almost parallel to
the drop section; on the other, this lever positioning prevents the hoods from being used
comfortably. A compromise must be arrived at, and this conflict is an inherent flaw in the design.

Quoted message said:

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You're saying that you operate the brakes quite easily from the drops, and that's where your
hands are in the best position for maximum leverage with the brake levers. This is not so when
your hands are on the hoods.

As I say, I experience no difficulty using the brakes from the hoods.

No difficulty, but is it the easiest position to operate the levers for modulation? No. You're just
used to it.

As an interesting attempt, look at christiecycles.com.auTrekking%20bar.htmOpen ↗

I can see other issues with this design though.

Having to move your hands every time you need to shift or slam on the brakes just doesn't make sense
to me. Why should roadies settle for second best?

Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This would
be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

Just ahead of your hands would be mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within
easy reach of your fingers.

You would get all the hand positions that are available with drop bars, plus, you would get
EFFECTIVE braking and shifting at your fingertips. Imagine that! I get excited thinking about it.

If you aren't convinced that v-brakes and rapid-fires at your fingertips would be a lovely thing, go
to your LBS and try out a flat-bar bike around town.

I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or some
other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

Harald

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:23:34 GMT, "Harald" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This would
be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

Just ahead of your hands would be mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within
easy reach of your fingers.

You would get all the hand positions that are available with drop bars, plus, you would get
EFFECTIVE braking and shifting at your fingertips. Imagine that! I get excited thinking about it.

What about when you're really hammering or downhilling in the drops? That's when brakes go from injury-
prevention to death-prevention.

Anyway, I don't have any problem shifting or braking with STI. Both are easy for my hands.

Quoted message said:

Harald

--
Rick Onanian

Harald said:

Having to move your hands every time you need to shift or slam on the brakes just doesn't make
sense to me. Why should roadies settle for second best?

Again, you say it, as if it were true. But it's not. That may be why it does not make sense to you.

Quoted message said:

Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This
would be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

But you could not reach the brake from the drops. Or the shifter. Current design lets you reach both
from the hoods and from the drops.

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Imagine that! I get excited thinking about it.

So, try and market it. You will find this fills no needs.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is _`\(,_ | not that they are
extreme, but that they are intolerant. (_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Benjamin Lewis:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or
some other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

Why do you suppose that no one has done this yet?

Lack of support? Because people are more willing to suffer a barely adequate design than demand
what they really need? You only need to look at the number of posters here defending the
superiority of the drop bar design.

That is evidence that drop bars _are_ very good and "what they really need". If they were "a barely
adequate design", then while _not_ demanding something different from "some ingenious engineering
type", all those posters _would_ be complaining that it's not "what they really need".
--
Rick Onanian

"Harald" wrote:

<snippage> << The [road] brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any force in
your most likely riding positon (on the hoods). >>

<snipe>

This STI/DuraAce dual pivot brake set-up over here is definitely the best I've felt on any bike,
road or mountain. The modulation is excellent. The action is light and instantaneous with hands on
the hoods and a few fingertips on the top of the lever, plenty of available power. A+ for the
brakes, A- for the shifters.

Robert

Harald said:

Take a look at touring bikes today and you will see that they all have mountain bike rear
derailleurs.

That's a matter of terminology and salesmanship. I look at MTBs and touring bikes and see that they
both have long-cage rear deraillers.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Jose Rizal said:

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_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference. With the profile height that dropbars have, you
have to choose which position you are going to be most comfortable with: hands on drops or hoods,
and adjust the height of the dropbars accordingly. Nothing to do with fit.

I think it has *everything* to do with fit. If your favorite position is on the hoods, you should
try it with the bars up a little higher. Now your hands will be in a better position to use the
brakes and STI or bar-end shifters. And if you find a bar that suits you (mine is a Salsa), the hand
position will most likely be more comfortable.

Not everyone will agree on this; I understand that. But I think the proper choice for *most* folks
is hands on drops and the appropriate handlebar position to make that comfortable.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

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In article said:

<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference.

_ If your "preference" is to ride in the position with least control and most extreme angles, then I
would suggest that something is wrong.

Quoted message said:

With the profile height that dropbars have, you have to choose which position you are going to be
most comfortable with: hands on drops or hoods, and adjust the height of the dropbars accordingly.
Nothing to do with fit.

_ If you want to get the most out of drop bars, you should be riding in the drops. If you set up the
bike so that riding on the hood's is the most comfortable position, all the other positions will be
uncomfortable. The drops will be too low, the lower flats way too low, the upper flats too close.
The position of the bars has everything to do with fit. It's the hardest part to get right.

_ Booker C. Bense

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