flat bars vs drops (again)

David;

Thanks for your additional comments. Without belaboring this, just a couple of things;

I cannot argue with your discussion about various brake styles, except that you failed to mention
whether you have ever actually used v-brakes. Sometimes the technical stuff just fades into the
background when you try the goods in real life.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In talking with road riders(and reading newsgroups), I hear comments

about

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frequent adjustments required on STI shifters.

Not in this group you don't. Did you just make that up? Those things are pretty much set and go.
You only have to adjust them when you replace the cable.

David, I did not make this up. Do a search and you will find complaints. But you have a point -
there are also many posters extolling the virtues of their STI shifters. I get the feeling that the
shifters may have improved over the years.

Quoted message said:

Mountain bikes are so

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popular because they provide an easy to use, practical product readily available to the average
rider.

They are popular for the same reason SUVs are popular; perceptions which are at odds with reality.
Both work well off-road (except for the large SUVs which would be a disaster off-road), but are
not suited for long distances on the road.

David, I presume that you ride a road bike and love it. You wouldn't catch me (or most people) on
a road bike for the following reasons; The riding position is too stretched out and the bars are
too low - especially in the drops. Us regular riders want to enjoy life - we are not just
interested in pure speed. There is only one way to get on and off the bike - the old fashioned
way. The tires are far too tiny. You need to keep them rock-hard or they pinch flat. The rock-hard
tires result in a harsh ride that is just no fun. The gearing is too tall.- ok for racers maybe,
but 99% of us don't race.

Let me take your analogy of SUV's one step further - Full-suspension MTB's are surely the SUV's of
the bike world. They are great in the dirt, but you wouldn't get your groceries with them. Road
bikes are the Ferrari's of the bike world. They are exhilirating and fast, but you wouldn't cross
the country in one, or even get the groceries (no room...). Mountain bikes with front shocks (or no
shocks) are just the dab for all kinds of fun rides (on and off road), groceries and the occasional
tour. They are the four-door sedans of the biking world. For long distances on the road you would
definitely want a touring bike. There's something for everyone. Enjoy your road bike, but don't deny
the rest of us our fun!

--
Happy riding;
Harald
(remove "blast" before replying)

dvt:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal said:

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_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference. With the profile height that dropbars have, you
have to choose which position you are going to be most comfortable with: hands on drops or
hoods, and adjust the height of the dropbars accordingly. Nothing to do with fit.

I think it has *everything* to do with fit. If your favorite position is on the hoods, you should
try it with the bars up a little higher. Now your hands will be in a better position to use the
brakes and STI or bar-end shifters. And if you find a bar that suits you (mine is a Salsa), the
hand position will most likely be more comfortable.

The point is that the drops are then less comfortable than the hoods. You can optimise the height of
the dropbar with respect to either hoods or drops riding, not both.

Harald said:

Let me take your analogy of SUV's [sic]one step further - Full-suspension MTB's [sic] are surely
the SUV's of the bike world. They are great in the dirt, but you wouldn't get your groceries with
them. Road bikes are the Ferrari's of the bike world. They are exhilirating and fast, but you
wouldn't cross the country in one, or even get the groceries (no room...).

Your anology falls flat, IMHO. SUVs are almost never taken off road, and the parking lots local
grocery stores (and all other stores) are filled with SUVs. People like them because of the
roominess and the perception of safety and dominance. Lots of people get groceries with them.

To me, "road bike" includes almost all bikes, since most MTBs are never ridden off road. Road bikes
can be racers, tourers or flat-bar bikes, of the skinny or fat tire persuasion. My road bike gets
the groceries just fine, with panniers and/or a trailer.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Harald said:

Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This
would be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

Just ahead of your hands would be mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within
easy reach of your fingers.

Do a quick google for cowhorn bars. Sounds a lot like your suggested handlebar design.

Touring bikes often have V-brakes. If you're infatuated with V-brakes, you can get 'em. And you can
put 'em on any bike with cantilever bosses.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

David L. Johnson:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:23:34 +0000, Harald wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This
would be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands.

But you could not reach the brake from the drops. Or the shifter. Current design lets you reach
both from the hoods and from the drops.

Only with a compromise: either the levers are optimised for reach from the hoods or the
drops, not both.

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Imagine that! I get excited thinking about it.

So, try and market it. You will find this fills no needs.

You say that as if it were true. Maybe you don't understand the reasoning behind the complaints
with dropbars.

Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Benjamin Lewis:

Quoted message said:

> I am sure that some ingenious engineering type would easily be able to come up with this or
> some other design that would be a vast improvement over what is out there now.

Why do you suppose that no one has done this yet?

Lack of support? Because people are more willing to suffer a barely adequate design than demand
what they really need? You only need to look at the number of posters here defending the
superiority of the drop bar design.

That is evidence that drop bars _are_ very good and "what they really need".

Not necessarily. As pointed out before, some of those who are used to the design of the dropbar are
coping with it; there's nothing that states it's what they really need, and the lack of any
alternatives likely make people put up and shut up.

Quoted message said:

If they were "a barely adequate design", then while _not_ demanding something different from "some
ingenious engineering type", all those posters _would_ be complaining that it's not "what they
really need".

That doesn't make sense. If people are able to cope with the design and are not offered
alternatives, how and why would they complain? It's not an argument for the dropbar being the
ultimate in handlebar design, it's merely that people are used to the design. Being content doesn't
necessarily mean that the design cannot be improved, nor that satisfaction level is at maximum.

You also need to look at the posts which highlight the inadequacies of the dropbar design.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 21:29:59 +0000, Harald wrote:

Quoted message said:

Mountain bikes are so

Quoted message said:

popular because they provide an easy to use, practical product readily available to the average
rider.

They are popular for the same reason SUVs are popular; perceptions which are at odds with reality.
Both work well off-road (except for the large SUVs which would be a disaster off-road), but are
not suited for long distances on the road.

One could argue the same is true of road bikes -- that they pander to perceptions at odds with
reality. Overly quick handling, super short chainstays, and no clearance for fenders, or anything
but the skinniest tires -- these things serve no real purpose -- even on the racecourse. But this is
how most road bikes are built nowadays. In fact most mountain/hybrid bikes sold now *are* more
practical than most road bikes -- for most people.

Matt O.

dvt said:

Not everyone will agree on this; I understand that. But I think the proper choice for *most* folks
is hands on drops and the appropriate handlebar position to make that comfortable.

You are of a minority position. The drops are used when the rider wants/needs to get out of the wind
more, in headwinds, downhills, sprints, and at the front of a paceline.

If you have the bars so high that you are in the drops all the time, what do you do when you have a
headwind? The point of multiposition bars is to have useful choices, and if your cruising position
is in the drops, what good are the tops or the hoods?

--

David L. Johnson

__o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand _`\(,_ | mathematics. (_)/ (_) |

Harald said:

David;

Thanks for your additional comments. Without belaboring this, just a couple of things;

I cannot argue with your discussion about various brake styles, except that you failed to mention
whether you have ever actually used v-brakes. Sometimes the technical stuff just fades into the
background when you try the goods in real life.

I use them on my mountain bike, and on the front of a tandem I am building up. Big tires, and, that
is what the forks/frame are designed for.

Quoted message said:

David, I presume that you ride a road bike and love it. You wouldn't catch me (or most people) on
a road bike for the following reasons; The riding position is too stretched out and the bars are
too low - especially in the drops.

You are saying that your road bike does not fit you. Others in this thread have recommended that you
get your bike properly fit. Why not do that rather than presume that all road bikes are that way?

Quoted message said:

There is only one way to get on and off the bike - the old fashioned

way.

I'm going to have to think about that. As opposed to?

Quoted message said:

The tires are far too tiny. You need to keep them rock-hard or they pinch flat.

You can buy wider tires.

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The rock-hard tires result in a harsh ride that is just no fun. The gearing is too tall.- ok for
racers maybe, but 99% of us don't race.

You can easily get better gearing. I rail often about the gearing that most road bikes are sold with
-- and about the too-low bars. Those are both marketing issues, not really a fault of the basic
design. My bike has 46/30 chainrings, and a 12-23 cassette. Works for me.

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Mountain bikes with front shocks (or no shocks) are just the dab for all kinds of fun rides (on
and off road), groceries and the occasional tour.

I don't think a tour on a mountain bike is a good idea. For all of these uses, a touring bike would
be much better.

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Enjoy your road bike, but don't deny the rest of us our fun!

I certainly don't mean to. It was you who was saying that road bikes were inferior and in need of a
re-design. I did not say the same thing about mountain bikes. I even ride one. But to claim that v-
brakes are a superior design is nonsense. They work fine, but their design was a kludge to use the
already common canti bosses. Why cantilever brakes were designed as they were is beyond my
knowledge. Maybe putting the bosses where they are was to avoid fenders on touring bikes.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how. _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

dvt said:

Not everyone will agree on this; I understand that. But I think the proper choice for *most*
folks is hands on drops and the appropriate handlebar position to make that comfortable.

You are of a minority position. The drops are used when the rider wants/needs to get out of the
wind more, in headwinds, downhills, sprints, and at the front of a paceline.

If you have the bars so high that you are in the drops all the time, what do you do when you have
a headwind? The point of multiposition bars is to have useful choices, and if your cruising
position is in the drops, what good are the tops or the hoods?

I think Dave's point is that if the hoods are as low as you can comfortably ride, which looks like
the case quite frequently, then the drops are now basically useless 'cause they hurt your back and
bend you over so far that willie gets numb. You should be able to ride in the drops for hours
without back, neck or arm pain. IMHO anyway.

Back in them olden days of yore whem many of us were still young and beautiful, the drops were set
about as low as you could comfortably ride, and the tops and hoods were used for resting, climbing,
etc. But then we were all trying to be Eddy...

The modern trend is for the hoods to be lower than in the old days, about as low as one can ride
comfortably. Drops are shallower as a result, which makes for a tighter curve under the hands and
less comfort. So the "ergo" bar was created, because hardly anyone can ride the comfortable deep
drop bars that were, because frames are too low and long, the bars too far down and too far away,
and we all need saddles with penile protection mechanisms so we can still get it up after our ride
to pose at the coffee shop.

Not that anyone here does that. ;-)

Harald said:

David, I presume that you ride a road bike and love it. You wouldn't catch me (or most people) on
a road bike for the following reasons; The riding position is too stretched out and the bars are
too low - especially in the drops. Us regular riders want to enjoy life - we are not just
interested in pure speed. There is only one way to get on and off the bike - the old fashioned
way. The tires are far too tiny. You need to keep them rock-hard or they pinch flat. The rock-hard
tires result in a harsh ride that is just no fun. The gearing is too tall.- ok for racers maybe,
but 99% of us don't race.

Well, since road bike sales are on the upswing and mountain bike sales are flat, I think "most
people" might not be entirely accurate. I think that you're correct in that the road bike position,
being aimed at racers and racer wannabes, is too stretched out for comfort. 700 x 23s are skinny and
have to be pumped up hard. A lot of people do like these characteristics, even in they don't race.
On the other hand, "hybrids" and mountain bikes aren't a lot of fun for long rides, with the upright
riding position, lack of hand position alternatives, stodgy tires and excessive weight.

There are LOTS of road bike alternatives to all that, if you know where to look. Rivendell Bicycle
Works, for example, has carved out a successful market niche for a decade addressing the very things
you complain about with higher bars, fatter tires, smarter gearing, etc.

www.rivendellbicycles.com

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message news:<0YNBb.9982>

Quoted message said:

Lack of support? Because people are more willing to suffer a barely adequate design than demand
what they really need? You only need to look at the number of posters here defending the
superiority of the drop bar design.

Look Jose, why don't you workout and train this offseason and try to drop 25lbs of body fat, then
you may see why we need drop bars on road bikes.

Until you get in shape and get yourself out of Mexico you probably won't see the benifit of
drop bars.

"Harald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

The really amazing thing about this troll is that so many of y'all actually jumped into it with
both feet.

Mike

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 10:33:00 -0800, "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

The really amazing thing about this troll is that so many of y'all actually jumped into it with
both feet.

Well, we haven't had a good firestorm about drop vs flat recently, so we're all rearing to go!

Quoted message said:

Mike

--
Rick Onanian

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harald <[email hidden]> wrote:

...

Quoted message said:

Have you looked at moustache bars?
--

Another interesting handlebar...

I was in Harris Cyclery and saw a real interesting set of handlebars on a Koga-Miyata WorldTraveller-
R (kogausa.comWorldTraveller Rspecs.htmOpen ↗). They were ITM Freetime Multigrip handlebars.
They were setup with mt bike brakes (Magura hydraulic rim brakes), and a Gripshift Rohloff shifter.
The following is a crude ASC artwork representation of the handlebar.

____ ____ / \
| |
\_____B______B_S____ /

B = location of brake levers S = location of shifter

The bar outbound from the brakes/shifter are padded. It looked like the bars had 3 or 4 distinct
hand positions. For touring/trekking these appear to be potentially interesting. Unfortunately, it
doesn't appear that ITM is selling them to the general market.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article UgzBb.36573$d35.18113@edtnps84 said:

I have been riding flat bars on my mtb bike for years. Lately I have been riding mostly on roads,
so the other day I tried out a touring bike with drop bars. Here are my impressions:

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In addition there are
lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as hand positions.
Wonderful.

_ Riding on the hoods is for resting and sitting up on the flats. For climbing on the hills.

Then what are the tops for? I use the hoods for most riding, and the tops as a change of pace or
when I want to sit up more.

...

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Harald said:

<snip>Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to

Quoted message said:

the cycling world (not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's
another story).

Except that the development of low gearing was mostly driven by, er, touring bikes.<snip>

Take a look at touring bikes today and you will see that they all have mountain bike rear
derailleurs.

That's because most of the difference today between a mountain bike rear derailleur and a long cage
road rear derailleur is in terms of cosmetics and finish. Functionally, either will work a cassette
appropriate to touring.

Rob Strickland

Harald said:

David Damerell

Quoted message said:

Harald <[email hidden]> wrote:

[Please sort out your quoting]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<snip>Mountain biking has brought a tremendous amount of product development to the cycling world
(not the least of which is gearing suitable for riding up hills -but that's another story).

Except that the development of low gearing was mostly driven by, er, touring bikes.<snip>

Take a look at touring bikes today and you will see that they all have mountain bike rear
derailleurs.

Even if this were true - which it's not in any meaningful sense, since a long cage derailleur
doesn't actually have anything touring- or mountain-specific about it - that would not change the
fact that touring bikes drove the development of low gearing, and hence you are wrong to attribute
that development ot mountain bikes.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Harald said:

doubt, try a bike with quality v-brakes. You will be amazed at the stopping power and the light
pull required.

Once again, any well adjusted, well designed brake will lift/lock the rear wheel. How _can_ you have
more braking than that?

Quoted message said:

I take your point that some instruction may be necessary. My counter-point is that using brakes on
flat bars is intuitive and requires no instruction.

This is not the case, since (especially with the grabby nature of Vs) the front brake must be used
with caution.

Quoted message said:

Ever since I started riding as a kid, I worried about "cracking my nuts" on the crossbar.

Worry about, sure, but is it actually an issue? It's happened to me once in my life; and since one
instinctively bends one's knees in a fall of this kind, I suspect you will find the genitals tend to
hit first even on a compact frame.

Quoted message said:

My mountain bike finally solved both those problems. The lower bar allows me to move the bike
around while riding,

I have no idea what you mean by this. All bikes move around while riding, that's how they work.

Quoted message said:

and allows me to step over the bar to get on the bike, if I want.

It's hard to see that as a serious issue; and a compact frame is still too high for long skirts and
the seriously unflexible, who would be better served by a mixte frame.

I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the crossbar, regardless of their frame design.

Quoted message said:

The gearing on my MTB allows me to ride up anything that I come across. If you look at new
touring bikes today, you will see that they have mountain bike rear derailleurs, and a tremendous
gear range.

Actually I think you will find that mountain bikes have derailleurs and gearing originally developed
for touring bikes.

Quoted message said:

all along, but the average bike did not have it. Mountain bikes are so popular because they provide
an easy to use, practical product readily available to the average rider.

Bunk. The typical mountain bike these days - certainly the most popular - is a $150 gaspipe clunker
which is cripplingly heavy; the rider is faced with suspension components that present a baffling
adjustment and maintenance challenge (easy to use?) and are of such low quality that the bike is of
less utility for offroad riding that an unsuspended frame.

Quoted message said:

We should not be afraid of new innovations

But we should examine them closely to see if they represent any real improvement.

Quoted message said:

available. I accept your suggestion that training and experience would help become more proficient
with the system currently in use. On the other hand, sometimes it is the newcomer that can point
out shortcomings in the status quo because he has different expectations.

Oh, don't start claiming you have some amazing insight not available to the rest of us. We have all
_been_ newcomers, and there have always been newcomers for as long as drop bars have been in use.
When first invented, every rider was new to them.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

In article <rfMBb.52149$bC.7802@clgrps13>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

David; Thank you for your considered reply. I will insert my comments below, but they are just
comments for discussion. I appreciate hearing from experienced riders on this forum.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UoOdnSvq-P3k5kqiRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harald said:

You just cannot beat the brakes and shifters. V-brakes are phenomenal.

Not really. The force angle of the pads against the rim is almost 45 degrees, while caliper
brakes hit the rims at nearly 90 degrees.

I hope that you are not confusing v-brakes with cantilever brakes. Cantilever brakes are good, v-
brakes are better, with a horizontal cable pull. Both cantilevers and v-brakes have stronger dual
mounting points compared to a single mounting point for caliper brakes. Caliper brakes may be just
fine for riding in the countryside, but for dealing with traffic and touring with a load, I feel
more confident having v-brakes. If you have any doubt, try a bike with quality v-brakes. You will
be amazed at the stopping power and the light pull required. (I know, I know, racers use calipers
at high speed etc. etc. I am not saying that calipers are [censored], just that I think v-brakes are
better for many applications.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Rapid-fire shifters are the best things since sliced bread. Simple. Effective. Reliable.

Drop bars; The drop bars have the nicest riding position - on the hoods. In

addition

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are lots of other positions which allow you change body position slightly as well as
hand positions. Wonderful.

The brakes and shifters suck. You cannot apply the brakes with any

force

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in your most likely riding positon (on the hoods).

You should be able to apply plenty of force from the hoods. Someone needs to show you how. By
plenty of force I mean you can apply enough force on the front brake to lift the rear wheel.

I take your point that some instruction may be necessary. My counter-point is that using brakes on
flat bars is intuitive and requires no instruction. I might also suggest that you may be used to
the situation, but if a newcomer finds it awkward, perhaps there is a better solution out there,
if we look for one.

I never found braking from the hoods awkward, even when I got my very first bike with drop bars; it
felt very natural from the start. However, I believe I had stronger hands than most kids my age,
and that may have made a difference. I have never had any problem applying all the braking force I
could use from the hoods on any bike I've owned, and it took me probably all of 3 shifts to learn
to love my STI's.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.