Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

flat bars vs drops (again)

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Cycling Equipment
Published
10 December 2003
Last activity
18 December 2003
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Harald
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  1. Sheldon Brown said:

    No, that's not it. I've never tried to swing my leg over while the stoker was already mounted, that
    sounds like a Very Bad Idea.

    Heh! Don't I know it - we have a double-childback triplet and the scars top prove it!

    Quoted message said:

    The captain always straddles the bike before the stoker.

    Not least because otherwise the bike falls over ;-)

    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.uk

  2. bbense+rec.bicycles.tech.Dec.12.0 said:

    _ Well if you've tried both and you like that better fine. I just object to the idea that riding
    on the hoods should be the norm

    Why?

    Quoted message said:

    and anything else is wrong. And you might actually sprint a little better with a more upright
    position.

    Not very likely.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster. --Greg LeMond _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |

  3. Sergio SERVADIO said:

    The bottom parts of the drops not being parallel, they lie on lines that would converge ahead of
    the rider. Allowing for a more natural position for one's wrists.

    That's a little different from the cross bars. Most track bars have the tops somewhat shorter, so
    that the bend is out of the way of the wrists, since on the track you really should be on the drops,
    in the hooks.

    I can't say I've seen them angled as you describe them.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all _`\(,_ | mysteries, and all
    knowledge; and though I have all faith, so (_)/ (_) | that I could remove mountains, and have not
    charity, I am nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]

  4. Sergio SERVADIO said:
    Ed Chait said:

    Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key issue in regards to
    comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

    Since we are at it. Once upon a time there were drops that would open up a little bit at an angle
    for the most comfortable position for your wrists.

    These are usually called "cross" bars. They are great. I have gone over to them completely, except
    for one bike.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve _`\(,_ | death. And some that die
    deserve life. Can you give it to (_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
    judgement. -- J. R. R. Tolkien

  5. Robert Strickland:

    Quoted message said:

    Jose Rizal wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My point is not that it's easier to operate the levers from the drops (unless you position these
    accordingly), but that hand position while on the hood makes for an awkward grasp of the brake
    lever, especially when you consider the design of the lever, its pivot location, and when you
    compare the grasp you can achieve on levers in straight handlebars.

    That's just nonsense. Both of my bikes have road brake levers and the hand position is not
    awkward.

    Only because you have gotten used to it.

    Quoted message said:

    Either you haven't used road brake levers recently or yours are postitioned badly. The pivot
    location on mine (Shimano
    600/Campy Veloce) are rougly equal with my first finger joint,

    Uh, "equal"? What does this mean?

    Quoted message said:

    which means that only my index and middle fingers are needed to actuate the lever. The same two
    fingers (and same requried finger strength) I'd use with straight handlebars.

    The position of your index and middle fingers are much closer to the pivot point on brake levers
    when your hands are on the hoods in a dropbar, than if your hands were on a flat handlebar. The
    leverage is therefore much better on the latter.

    If your grip on hoods and brake levers is so good, try it with just your index and middle finger
    next time (exclude your ring and pinky by wrapping these on the dropbar, under the brake lever).

    You're really only saying you're used to dropbars and brake operation from the hoods, not that
    dropbars are the best in this regard.

  6. Robert Strickland:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You will also note that operation of the brake lever from the hands-on-hoods position is quite
    different from the flat bars case, in that in the former, the grasp of the strongest fingers is
    located above the pivot of the levers, requiring the weaker ring and pinkie fingers to do most
    of the work. I can't vouch for the credibility of anyone who can think that this is anything but
    bad design. Operating the lever from the drops is better, provided that the reach is adequate,
    but since most people spend most of their time on the hoods, it only makes sense to make the
    brake levers as easy and effective to operate from that position as in the drops.

    I find it hard to believe that you've ever ridden a bike with drop bars and road brake levers.

    Because you can't understand the arrangement I've described? Why don't you look at your own
    arrangement and tell me which part of my description is different?

    Quoted message said:

    Both of my bikes have road brake levers (one Shimano the other Campy). In neither case do I apply
    pressure on the brake lever with my pinkie finger or ring finger. In both cases my index finger
    and middle finger provide the force to move the lever while my pinkie and ring finger rest under
    the lever on the bar providing leverage. There is no difficulty in braking (I can easily lock the
    wheels if I want to) and I find the position quite comfortable, not just acceptable.

    Because you're used to it. Now look at the arrangement with a flat handlebar and brake lever. I find
    it hard to believe you cannot see a difference (and I won't make any allusions to your bike type
    experience).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And it is the oldtimer who has difficulty seeing past what s/he's used to.

    Apparently, in your world, the majority of road bikers are oldtimers who don't know what's good
    for them and are too stupid or unimaginative to think about alternatives.

    Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
    agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over the
    world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

    Quoted message said:

    The fact is that drop bars work and work well for most people who ride road bikes for any length
    of time.

    Go take a world view and see how this generalisation is just wrong.

    Quoted message said:

    Just because you feel differently doesn't mean the rest of us are stubborn or deluded.

    I didn't mention delusion; don't be too defensive.

  7. Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote:
    : If your grip on hoods and brake levers is so good, try it with just your index and middle finger
    : next time (exclude your ring and pinky by wrapping these on the dropbar, under the brake lever).

    serious? this is what i *always* do. no problem.
    --
    david reuteler [email hidden]

  8. Ed Chait:

    Quoted message said:


    "Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The point is that the drops are then less comfortable than the hoods. You can optimise the
    height of the dropbar with respect to either hoods or drops riding, not both.


    The reason drop bars are a good design is because they offer "several" comfortable

    So do other bar arrangements.

    Quoted message said:

    and viable hand positions.

    Viable? This is a superfluous term as you use it.

    Quoted message said:

    That one of the positions may be more "optimal" than others has no bearing on the viability of
    the design.

    Read that again and you'll see the fallacy of the latter part.

    Quoted message said:

    No design is going to provide several hand positions which are *equal* in all regards.

    Not true, unless you've considered all designs.

    Quoted message said:

    Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key issue in regards to
    comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

    4 "viable" positions on a dropbar?

  9. Fabrizio Mazzoleni:

    Quoted message said:

    Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message news:<0YNBb.9982>

    Quoted message said:

    Lack of support? Because people are more willing to suffer a barely adequate design than demand
    what they really need? You only need to look at the number of posters here defending the
    superiority of the drop bar design.

    Look Jose, why don't you workout and train this offseason and try to drop 25lbs of body fat, then
    you may see why we need drop bars on road bikes.

    Until you get in shape and get yourself out of Mexico you probably won't see the benifit of
    drop bars.

    Sigh. It's only because I suffer fake fools gladly that I'm not going to unduly harass you on your
    inadequate spelling skills.

    However, don't take too much comfort hiding behind your pasta mask.

  10. Rick Onanian:

    Quoted message said:
    Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

    Rick Onanian:

    Quoted message said:

    If they were "a barely adequate design", then while _not_ demanding something different from
    "some ingenious engineering type", all those posters _would_ be complaining that it's not "what
    they really need".

    That doesn't make sense. If people are able to cope with the design and are not offered
    alternatives, how and why would they complain? It's not

    How: They'd post to threads like this one. Why: They can't get "what they really need".

    Nope. They can't get what they really need now, since there are no alternatives to the dropbar, so
    why complain? You still haven't proved anything.

    Quoted message said:

    Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to "cope"
    with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

    Ah, but others do; look at the other posts. However, when people like you state that there is no
    need to complain, you then need to defend your proclamations and that is not a sustainable position,
    for lack of tenable arguments.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    an argument for the dropbar being the ultimate in handlebar design, it's

    It certainly isn't such an argument. However, "not the ultimate in handlebar design" is not the
    same as "barely adequate".

    It is for me, and for others who have posted as such.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    merely that people are used to the design. Being content doesn't necessarily mean that the design
    cannot be improved, nor that satisfaction level is at maximum.

    If you're arguing that a different design would benefit some people, I won't argue against that.
    However, to say that because it's not right for you, it must be wrong for everybody else (even
    though it's a rare few that complain) is a fallacy.

    You bring out a different situation than what exists. I have pointed out the inadequacy of the
    design of the hoods/dropbar/brake lever arrangement, from a perspective of my comfort level in
    operating this. People then came out and stated that there is nothing wrong with the design, you
    just need "instructions" on how to use it, or that one just needs to get used to it since "I can
    endo without problems". These are the fallacies.

    Quoted message said:

    Just as many other threads here, this brings to mind the Toby Keith lyrics "that might not work
    for you / but it works for me".

    You've just dropped your credibility by including this guy's work in your statements.

  11. Ed Chait:

    Quoted message said:


    "Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

    Rick Onanian:

    Quoted message said:

    Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to
    "cope" with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

    Read some of his other posts in other threads and you will discover the attitude that supports
    this type of thinking.

    Great. Total contribution to the issues raised: zero.

  12. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    That's just nonsense. Both of my bikes have road brake levers and the hand position is not
    awkward.

    Only because you have gotten used to it.

    Says you. I never found it awkward, even from the beginning. Why is it that you're more of an expert
    regarding what I find awkward and what I don't than I am?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Either you haven't used road brake levers recently or yours are postitioned badly. The pivot
    location on mine (Shimano
    600/Campy Veloce) are rougly equal with my first finger joint,

    Uh, "equal"? What does this mean?

    Equal in height. What else?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    which means that only my index and middle fingers are needed to actuate the lever. The same two
    fingers (and same requried finger strength) I'd use with straight handlebars.

    The position of your index and middle fingers are much closer to the pivot point on brake levers
    when your hands are on the hoods in a dropbar, than if your hands were on a flat handlebar. The
    leverage is therefore much better on the latter.

    If your grip on hoods and brake levers is so good, try it with just your index and middle finger
    next time (exclude your ring and pinky by wrapping these on the dropbar, under the brake lever).

    As I stated already, that's exactly what I already do. I don't use my ring or pinky finger
    while braking..

    Quoted message said:

    You're really only saying you're used to dropbars and brake operation from the hoods, not that
    dropbars are the best in this regard.

    Your're right. I'm not saying they are the best. I'm saying they work fine for me and I don't find
    them lacking at all. Perhaps there is something better out there but I have no pressing need to find
    out. It's not because, as you claim, "I've gotten used to it" but rather that there was nothing to
    get used to. It worked fine from the beginning.

    Rob Strickland

  13. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Both of my bikes have road brake levers (one Shimano the other Campy). In neither case do I apply
    pressure on the brake lever with my pinkie finger or ring finger. In both cases my index finger
    and middle finger provide the force to move the lever while my pinkie and ring finger rest under
    the lever on the bar providing leverage. There is no difficulty in braking (I can easily lock the
    wheels if I want to) and I find the position quite comfortable, not just acceptable.

    Because you're used to it. Now look at the arrangement with a flat handlebar and brake lever. I
    find it hard to believe you cannot see a difference (and I won't make any allusions to your bike
    type experience).

    Why do you insist that the only way that anyone could find drop bars comfortable to use is by
    "getting used to it"? Perhaps that was your experience, but it was not mine. It took no more getting
    used to than any other aspect of riding and certainly less than clipless pedals. As stated, I use
    the same two fingers to brake with road brake levers that I do with mtb brake levers so while you
    may find it hard to believe, there is in fact no relevant difference.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    And it is the oldtimer who has difficulty seeing past what s/he's used to.

    Apparently, in your world, the majority of road bikers are oldtimers who don't know what's good
    for them and are too stupid or unimaginative to think about alternatives.

    Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
    agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over the
    world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

    I've never claimed anything about "road bikers" as it relates to Western countries or the rest of
    the world. I've simply refuted your claims about what I had to "get used to" in order to use road
    brake levers. Your experience may have been different but your claims about my experience are simply
    an expression of your own dogma. The simple fact that many people in other parts of the world ride
    bikes without drop bars shows nothing about their comfort. Availability, custom and intended use are
    a few factors that would play at least as important a role.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Just because you feel differently doesn't mean the rest of us are stubborn or deluded.

    I didn't mention delusion; don't be too defensive.

    You imply that we're deluded when you claim that our stated preference for drop bars are,
    unbeknownst to us, actually the result of having "gotten used to" something. How is it that you
    understand our needs and experiences better than we do.

    Rob Strickland

  14. In article <[email hidden]>, _@_._ says...

    Quoted message said:

    Ed Chait:

    Quoted message said:


    "Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The point is that the drops are then less comfortable than the hoods. You can optimise the
    height of the dropbar with respect to either hoods or drops riding, not both.


    The reason drop bars are a good design is because they offer "several" comfortable

    So do other bar arrangements.

    Quoted message said:

    and viable hand positions.

    Viable? This is a superfluous term as you use it.

    Quoted message said:

    That one of the positions may be more "optimal" than others has no bearing on the viability of
    the design.

    Read that again and you'll see the fallacy of the latter part.

    Quoted message said:

    No design is going to provide several hand positions which are *equal* in all regards.

    Not true, unless you've considered all designs.

    Quoted message said:

    Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key issue in regards to
    comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

    4 "viable" positions on a dropbar?

    Yes. More, actually. I have five main positions that I use routinely for extended periods of time,
    and a sixth which I use for special situations:

    1. On the straight section of the tops: when riding relaxed, or want to sit up higher, and don't
    expect to need brakes or shifters in the near future.

    2. Sides, just forward of the bends: used for climbing, or when I want to sit up higher but might
    want to get to the brakes on shorter notice than the tops.

    3. On the hoods: for stop and go riding, when expect to need brakes and/or shifters on short
    notice, or want to get a bit lower than the previous two positions, to get down out of the wind
    a bit. This is where I spend the majority of my riding because it's a good compromise between
    comfort and aerodynamics. I rotated my bars a bit to raise the hoods a bit above their factory
    original positions, so that the end of the drops point down toward the road a bit.

    4. The drops at the end of the bars: for extended times into the wind or at high speeds, and don't
    expect to need brakes or shifters.

    5. On the "ergonomic" part of the drops: when I want to be in the drops for aerodynamic situations,
    but expect to need brakes and/or shifters.

    6. (less commonly). On the forward-most part of the drops, with forearms essentially horizontal for
    maximum aerodynamics. This is tiring on the triceps, so I don't stay there for extended periods
    of time (not more than a few minutes at a time).

    I also spend time at various positions in between the above positions, just to move them around. For
    example, I might put my hands on the top curves, with the fingers on either the inside or the
    outside of the curve, or sometimes with each hand in a different position.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

  15. <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

    In article said:

    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    _ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

    Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference.

    _ If your "preference" is to ride in the position with least control and most extreme angles, then
    I would suggest that something is wrong.

    At least you recognise that riding on the hoods does not afford you the best control.

  16. Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

    Because you're used to it. Now look at the arrangement with a flat handlebar and brake lever. I
    find it hard to believe you cannot see a difference

    The difference seems to be that it causes wrist pain if ridden for any length of time. If you don't
    get that, it's probably because you're used to it.

    Quoted message said:

    Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
    agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design.

    I don't think anyone is claiming that. I would claim that the drop bar is by and large good enough;
    and that's it's superior to the flat bar; and that it will not be easily improved upon.

    Quoted message said:

    Look at utility cyclists all over the world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these
    others are using.

    Evidently with an upright posture the wrist issues with flat bars are not so great (and, indeed,
    most of these people do not use straight-across flat bars, but bars that curve towards the rider.)
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

  17. -couldn't sort attributions-

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    In article said:

    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >_ If you are riding most of the time on the brake hoods, then your bike doesn't fit you.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. Riding on the hoods is a preference.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    _ If your "preference" is to ride in the position with least control and most extreme angles, then
    I would suggest that something is wrong.

    Jose Rizal said:

    At least you recognise that riding on the hoods does not afford you the best control.

    I've found slow-speed control better with flat bars but at reasonable cycling speeds no
    difference at all.

    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  18. Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

    Apparently in your world, "road bikers" are mainly recreational riders in Western countries who
    agree that the dropbar is the ultimate in handlebar design. Look at utility cyclists all over the
    world and try to justify your viewpoint based on what these others are using.

    Oh yes, I remember this argument from other threads. It's the "every cyclist is the same and has the
    same needs even when they have a different environment and different purposes for riding" argument.

    Utility cyclist != recreational cyclist. You != me. You != everybody. Me != everybody.

    Hence, we have choices rather than all the same. For example, you can ride flat bars, or something
    like this: performancebike.comcboProfile.cfm or this:
    cbike.comcin ram.jpg
    --
    Rick Onanian

  19. "Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ed Chait:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key


    issue

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in regards to comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

    4 "viable" positions on a dropbar?

    Tops, bends, hoods, drops.

    Are you familiar enough with drop bars to be engaging in this discussion?

    Ed Chait

  20. On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 06:04:34 GMT, "Ed Chait" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Ed Chait:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key


    issue

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in regards to comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

    4 "viable" positions on a dropbar?

    Tops, bends, hoods, drops.

    Are you familiar enough with drop bars to be engaging in this discussion?

    Holy [censored], is this the best we can do? Have we all reverted to the point where all we can do is say
    "oh yeah" to each other? Sheesh. Cant we agree that what is there on drop bars is probably "good
    enough", but could always be improved on.

    I would think that handlebar design - like frame design in general, had basically become what it is
    because tubing was always the cheapest material to use - and to still get a decent design. With
    modern carbon design - or even lightweight plastic (well, maybe not) a specific design could be made
    that would give an even better result.

    I tend to agree that having more "possible" positions on the bar is good, but having more "good"
    positions is better. I call a good position one where getting to both shifters and brakes is
    immediate or at least has a direct shot at them (unlike riding on the tops, where a quick movement
    while going over a bump could make you miss the lever entirely).

    I also went over to my road bike and tried the brake levers. Sure enough, I use my first and second
    fingers... not ring and pinkie. However, I can see that with a slight adjustment of the levers, I
    would be using the weaker fingers more. Also, even though I use the same fingers as on my flatbar
    bike, the movement is quite different. On the flat bar, it's like grabbing, where on the road bar,
    it's more of a downward rocking motion. Definitely not the same, and less strength available.

    Any "helpful" comments?

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