flat bars vs drops (again)

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:57:09 +0000 (UTC),
<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

uncomfortable in the long run. There also the lower flats, which nobody seems to use anymore.

I do. I once posted a list of some of the positions that I regularly use.

See groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗ Scroll
down 3/4 of the way. I've got a partial list there, but later I realized that I had forgotten
two or three.

...and I cruise mostly on the hoods.
--
Rick Onanian

Rod Raisanen said:

"David Damerell wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the >crossbar,

regardless of their frame design.

This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame? That is
the way I have always mounted a bike. I never really paid attention to how other people mount their
bikes but I thought everone did it this way. It does get kind of hard to do when my bike is on a
trainer and it adds about 2" to the height.

Easy...either they drop out of a 2nd floor window onto the bike, or they run up from behind it and
leap onto it.

The really advanced riders run backwards towards the front of the bike...

Quoted message said:

Rod Raisanen Chillicothe Ohio

--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Is PGP really necessary for public newsfroup postings?

i see nothing wrong w/ it. occassionally someone impersonate's someone usually to thoughtfully
solicit for dates on their behalf.

'sides pgp is cool.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

Final comments (I hope); Thanks everyone for their input on this topic. We have certainly had a
lively discussion.

One thing that I learned through all this was alluded to by some but not clearly identified by
anyone. And that is that any handlebar/brake/shifter arrangement is a collection of compromises. The
flat bar, as we all agree, severerly compromises comfort in exchange for better steering control and
efficient use of brakes and shifters.

The drop bar has a more interesting set of compromises. Due to the wide variety of hand positions
available (which is it's main strength), the brakes and shifters are not going to be handy to all
positions. The result has been that the brakes and shifters are somewhat handy to two of the most-
used positions.

The suggestion that I came up with for a new bar design (quoted below) is just a different
compromise. The advantage would be better braking and shifting from the most popular hand position.
The disadvantage would be that the brakes and shifters would be a long way from all the other hand
positions.

Would this be a better compromise? Probably not. Does this mean that a better design is impossible?
Probably not. Hopefully this discussion has got some people thinking.

For my part, now I just have to decide on the set of compromises that will work best for me and the
type of riding that I do.

Thanks again for all the various constructive comments. And for those of you who feel that your way
is the only way and road bikes are the only bikes - Loosen, up! Variety is the spice of life.

----
Happy riding Harald (remove "blast" before replying)

(Imagine a new handlebar shape. The bar looks a lot like a regular drop bar, but where the brake
hoods would normally be located there is a shaped extension of the bar pointing forward. This would
be just as comfortable as the hoods for resting your hands. Just ahead of your hands would be
mounted a modified rapid-fire shifter and a V-brake lever within easy reach of your fingers. You
would get all the hand positions that are available with drop bars, plus, you would get EFFECTIVE
braking and shifting at your fingertips.)

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the handlebars. This is only unfeasible
if you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long skirt, which few riders of either
gender do these days.

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

The image of catching your stoker full in the face with your foot as you swing it over the saddle is
not pretty. You might have trouble finding another stoker.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong. _`\(,_ | He's not the kind
you have to wind-up on Sundays. --Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Damerell wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I don't see many people mounting by stepping over the crossbar, regardless of their frame
>design.

Rod Raisanen asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This isn't a flame but how else do you mount your bike if you don't step over the frame?

David:

Quoted message said:

Swing the right leg up and over the saddle while holding the handlebars. This is only unfeasible
if you have a child seat on the back rack or are wearing a long skirt, which few riders of
either gender do these days.

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

Another approach, that looks very cool, and is much easier than it looks is over the handlebars:

Hold the middle of the handlebar in your right hand.

Swing your right leg up and over. As your leg approaches your right arm, let go of the bars, and
then grab the bars with your left hand.

If your handlebars are lower than your saddle, this works very well. Indeed, most folks can raise
their thigh higher forwards than backwards.

It sounds scary, but it's actually quite easy, at least with drop bars at a fairly low position.

Being an old fart who needs the bars higher than I used to, I don't generally do this any more.

Sheldon "Over The Bars" Brown

I may try the handle bar mount sometime. I guess I do sometimes swing my leg over the saddle when
I'm fresh. I just considered that a way of stepping over the top tube. I know I can get my leg that
high after I have be riding for awhile. I ride a large frame 64cm and it is probably another 15cm or
more to the top of my seat. The bar would probably be about 8cm lower. Another funny thing is that I
always mount from the left side.

Rod Raisanen

To reply remove garbage

On 10 Dec 2003 22:49:07 -0800, [email hidden] (Fabrizio

Mazzoleni) said:

Until you get in shape and get yourself out of Mexico you probably won't see the benifit of
drop bars.

Shame on you, Fabrizio, for making a speeling erorr!

Mexico is sounding pretty good, anyway, when I look outside at the piles of snow.

"...Baby if you're good to go, we'll head down to Mexico, get a place in Cabo, and kick back in
the sand..."
--
Rick Onanian

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

If they were "a barely adequate design", then while _not_ demanding something different from
"some ingenious engineering type", all those posters _would_ be complaining that it's not "what
they really need".

That doesn't make sense. If people are able to cope with the design and are not offered
alternatives, how and why would they complain? It's not

How: They'd post to threads like this one. Why: They can't get "what they really need".

Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to "cope"
with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

Quoted message said:

an argument for the dropbar being the ultimate in handlebar design, it's

It certainly isn't such an argument. However, "not the ultimate in handlebar design" is not the same
as "barely adequate".

Quoted message said:

merely that people are used to the design. Being content doesn't necessarily mean that the design
cannot be improved, nor that satisfaction level is at maximum.

I've never heard of any design (for any product whatsoever) that could not be improved, nor
that produced a satisfaction level that is at maximum...especially if you apply it to more than
one person.

If you're arguing that a different design would benefit some people, I won't argue against that.
However, to say that because it's not right for you, it must be wrong for everybody else (even
though it's a rare few that complain) is a fallacy.

Just as many other threads here, this brings to mind the Toby Keith lyrics "that might not work for
you / but it works for me".
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

David Damerell wrote Swing the right leg up and over the saddle

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

David Damerell said:

I have to admit, I don't understand this - surely the stoker bars on a tandem are not
significantly above the saddle?

-snip-

My (the stoker's) head is the thing my captain's trying not to kick when she swings her leg over the
front instead.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The point is that the drops are then less comfortable than the hoods. You can optimise the height
of the dropbar with respect to either hoods or drops riding, not both.

The reason drop bars are a good design is because they offer "several" comfortable and viable hand
positions. That one of the positions may be more "optimal" than others has no bearing on the
viability of the design. No design is going to provide several hand positions which are *equal* in
all regards.

Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key issue in regards to comfort,
and drop bars provide this very nicely.

Ed Chait

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Rick Onanian:

Quoted message said:

Why would they NOT complain if they were only offered one design and felt that they had to "cope"
with it? What makes you different that you would complain while others wouldn't?

Read some of his other posts in other threads and you will discover the attitude that supports this
type of thinking.

Ed Chait

Ed Chait said:

Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key issue in regards to
comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

Since we are at it. Once upon a time there were drops that would open up a little bit at an angle
for the most comfortable position for your wrists.

Sergio Pisa

Sergio SERVADIO said:

Once upon a time there were drops that would open up a little bit at an angle for the most
comfortable position for your wrists.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but are you sure that none of the Nitto bars sold by Rivendell
meets your requirement?

SJS Cycles in the UK had, last time I looked, a selection of traditionally shaped bars which also
might be useful.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

Sergio SERVADIO said:

David Damerell said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but are you sure that none of the Nitto bars sold by Rivendell
meets your requirement?

The bottom parts of the drops not being parallel, they lie on lines that would converge ahead of
the rider. Allowing for a more natural position for one's wrists.

Oh, I see what you mean. The Nitto Noodle and DirtDrop bars have this characteristic. I myself use
Noodle bars with which I am happy; they are less flared than the DirtDrop.

Some of the bars sold by SJS might as well, but they don't provide top-down photographs or drawings
so it's hard to tell.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!

David Damerell said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but are you sure that none of the Nitto bars sold by Rivendell
meets your requirement? SJS Cycles in the UK had, last time I looked, a selection of traditionally
shaped bars which also might be useful.

Thanks, I'll look into that.

Those I was referring to are on an antique track bike a friend of mine has. The bottom parts of the
drops not being parallel, they lie on lines that would converge ahead of the rider. Allowing for a
more natural position for one's wrists.

Sergio Pisa

"Sergio SERVADIO" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed Chait said:

Being able to change hand position to 3 or 4 viable locations is a key

issue

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in regards to comfort, and drop bars provide this very nicely.

Since we are at it. Once upon a time there were drops that would open up a little bit at an angle
for the most comfortable position for your wrists.

Sergio Pisa

My preferred drop bars are randonneur bars, which I find extremely comfortable.

I also have a couple of road bikes with Scott AT-3 bars, which are flat bars with integrated "bar-
ends". Because they have a smooth curve and transition between the flat sections and the "bar-ends",
they also provide several viable and comfortable positions.

Ed Chait

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In article <[email hidden]>, Sergio SERVADIO

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but are you sure that none of the Nitto bars sold by Rivendell
meets your requirement? SJS Cycles in the UK had, last time I looked, a selection of
traditionally shaped bars which also might be useful.

Thanks, I'll look into that.

Those I was referring to are on an antique track bike a friend of mine has. The bottom parts of the
drops not being parallel, they lie on lines that would converge ahead of the rider. Allowing for a
more natural position for one's wrists.

_ Salsa cyclocross bars have this kind of flare and you can find similar style flare bars on
randonneur bikes. Try Rivendell bikes to look at some more examples.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Sergio SERVADIO said:

Once upon a time there were drops that would open up a little bit at an angle for the most
comfortable position for your wrists.

Those are still widely available. I think bars designed for cyclocross bikes are often flared. I
have a Salsa Bell Lap bar (salsacycles.comhandlebarBelllap.htmOpen ↗). The drop position
is by far the most comfortable position on any handlebar I've owned.

Dave dvt at psu dot edu

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In article said:

bbense+rec.bicycles.tech.Dec.11.0 said:

_ Try it if you can find a bike that will allow it. It's really much more comfortable in the long
run. It's only a minority opinion because most road bikes in the shops today are setup to be
criterium racers.

My bike is set up the way I like it. No one should put up with a bike that is not set up for their
needs. But I do occasionally ride into headwinds, and downhills. Sprints are not my forte -- they
never were. But I want to have the drops available for those situations.

_ Well if you've tried both and you like that better fine. I just object to the idea that riding on
the hoods should be the norm and anything else is wrong. And you might actually sprint a little
better with a more upright position.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A bike that's optimized for a 1-2 hr race in which you make a hundred or more turns seem widely
inappropriate for most road riding use to me.

A few parts can change all that.

_ Like the frame? Kind of hard to change the seat and head tube angles and lengthen the chain stays,
but maybe I've just been looking at the wrong bikes...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

_ Bend my elbows? If you can't bend your elbows, then you're carrying weight on your arms which
is very tiring and uncomfortable in the long run. There also the lower flats, which nobody seems
to use anymore.

Riding for a long distance with the elbows bent that much would be worse, for me, than the wind.

_ That to me suggests you're carrying weight on your arms, which is great for sprinting and
accellerating, but ultimately tiring.

Quoted message said:

The flats aren't that much lower, and I've always ridden in the hooks when on the drops so I had
good access to the brakes.

Quoted message said:

race, I would always watch for somebody riding the hoods. Maybe is all just fashion, but I would
suggest actually trying it before dimissing years of experience.

I have a few years of experience myself to draw on, thanks.

_ It's not just my own personal experience, but hey riding is whats important. I'm old fat and slow
but I know how I want my bike setup.

_ Booker C. Bense

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David Damerell wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Swing the right leg up and over the saddle [unless there's a baby seat]

I added:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or a tandem. Sometimes helps to lean the bike toward you, effectively lowering the saddle.

Quoted message said:

David Damerell said:

I have to admit, I don't understand this - surely the stoker bars on a tandem are not
significantly above the saddle?

Andy replied:

Quoted message said:

My (the stoker's) head is the thing my captain's trying not to kick when she swings her leg over
the front instead.

No, that's not it. I've never tried to swing my leg over while the stoker was already mounted, that
sounds like a Very Bad Idea.

The captain always straddles the bike before the stoker.

The reason it's sometimes harder to swing your leg over the saddle of a tandem is that the
stoker's handlebars are quite a bit wider than the saddle, so you need to keep your leg high over
a wider swing.

All of my tandems, except the fixed gear, have straight handlebars in back.

See: sheldonbrown.comtandemOpen ↗

Sheldon "Twicer" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
| A ship in the harbor is safe, but | that is not what ships are built for. | --John A. Shedd |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗