Helmets

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:20:33 +0100 someone who may be "Vivian"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Did the obligatory use of helmets for motorcyclist reduce
their numbers? Nope.

ISTR that it did.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

On 21/4/04 1:21 pm, in article [email hidden],

Just zis Guy said:

Peter Clinch said:

Tell me how to get to Arisaig with 2x5m sea kayaks in an
evening without using a private motor vehicle and I'll be
interested and surprised.

Happy to be of service :-)

tricolour.net36.htmlOpen ↗

I'm sure it can maintain an average speed of about 35-40mph
over 200 miles of hilly scotland..

Looks fun though, can you just flip it upside down when you
get to the water?

..d

James Annan said:

It's a funnny thing how this sea kayaking lark seems to
require car ownership, but as a student I was rowing in 50
foot boats all over the country (and even abroad once) for
years with no car and no particular problems.

It seems that the problem with kayaks is not that they
are awkward to transport, but that they are not
awkward enough!

I think it's more that a sea kayaker's definition of "all
over the country", plus lack of subsidised Union transits
and trailers, that makes the principle difference here.
Getting between event courses used by universities with
subsidised sport clubs and getting to obscure bits of
Scottish coastline with one's own resources are rather
different jobs!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Jon Senior said:

He he. I want one. It'd be worth taking up kayaking just
to play with that!

Though point of order, m'lud, that's a canoe, not a kayak.
Makes a change though, most people in the UK call kayaks
canoes rather than the other way around...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Yes, I've seen it and would like both HPVs pictured, but
I'm afraid your geography could do with a top up if you
think I can pedal from Dundee to Arisaig in an
evening... :-(

But there are two seats - twice the power! I don't know,
apathetic bloody planet...

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

On 21/4/04 1:49 pm, in article
[email hidden], "Jon Senior"

jon_AT_restlesslemon.co.uk said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He he. I want one. It'd be worth taking up kayaking just
to play with

that!

Quoted message said:

Though point of order, m'lud, that's a canoe, not a
kayak. Makes a change though, most people in the UK call
kayaks canoes rather than the other way around...

S'just a small boat right?

What is the difference (If it can be explained in less
than 3 lines)?

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the
occupant has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.
Canoe is open and sinks when filled with water (if it has
no additional buoyancy.

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated wheras a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

..d

Peter Clinch said:

I think it's more that a sea kayaker's definition of "all
over the country", plus lack of subsidised Union transits
and trailers, that makes the principle difference here.
Getting between event courses used by universities with
subsidised sport clubs and getting to obscure bits of
Scottish coastline with one's own resources are rather
different jobs!

Not entirely sure why the location makes a particular
difference, it is either where the boat is stored or
it is not.

As for subsidised transits, the once I did the the driving
it was in a hired car with a towbar. But nevertheless, I
will accept that a car is as necessary as a sea kayak. :-)

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is by treading on the
toes of giants. ne.jphomeOpen ↗

James Annan said:

Not entirely sure why the location makes a particular
difference, it is either where the boat is stored or
it is not.

You were in the habit of launching racing 8s off of small
rocky beaches with *very* minor roads to access them?

Quoted message said:

As for subsidised transits, the once I did the the driving
it was in a hired car with a towbar.

i.e., effectively a private motor vehicle.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

David Martin said:

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the occupant
has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.

But not kept warm. Hence the old adage: you can't have your
kayak and heat
it.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

David Martin said:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference (If it can be explained in less
than 3 lines)?

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the occupant
has a splashdeck and appropriate competence. Canoe is open
and sinks when filled with water (if it has no additional
buoyancy.

Quoted message said:

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated wheras a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

The latter definition is better. A canoe is typically
paddled kneeling with a single-bladed paddle, a kayak is
paddled sitting with a double bladed paddle. The first
description doesn't work for things like a C1, which looks
like a whitewater kayak in every respect (closed deck, can
be rolled) but does have a kneeling support rather than a
seat and is paddled with only half a paddle...

Roos

David Martin said:

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the occupant
has a splashdeck and appropriate competence. Canoe is open
and sinks when filled with water (if it has no additional
buoyancy.

Sorry, nul points :-(

sprint K boats have open cockpits and will swamp if they go
over, spraydeck in place or not, as there's no way to brace
yourself in to roll. Whitewater Cs are closed and though
harder to roll than a roughly equivalent kayak it can
certainly be done.

Difference is in ancestry and the paddling style. Canoes are
derived from Native American designs and use a single bladed
paddle used on one side of the craft, kayaks are derived
from Inuit and Aleut designs and are powered with a double-
ended paddle used on both sides alternately.

Designs tend to be merging in some areas, especially
inflatables where the basic ancestry is more canoe but the
paddles are double ended.

Quoted message said:

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated whereas a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

Nearer... Most open canoes have seats which are used in
calmer water, though you kneel or half-kneel in the rough
stuff. Serious white water canoes often have a saddle,
though it's used in a kneeling position.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Just zis Guy said:

Gawnsoft wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cars are used often for transport where there are no
easily substitutable alternative forms of transport.

Quoted message said:

The word "no" seems to have slipped into the above by
accident ;-)

Yes and no ;-) Tell me how to get to Arisaig with 2x5m sea
kayaks in an evening without using a private motor vehicle
and I'll be interested and surprised.

Helicopter? Flying boat? VSTOL? Matter tranference gateway?

A more serious question (for all of us) is why we do these
things. We all claim, more or less, to care about the
environment, and people who ride mountain bikes and paddle
sea kayaks on the whole claim to care more about the
environment than others.

So why do you need to tear across Scotland and back in a
weekend? Why, of course, because you have to go to work on
Monday. Why do you have to go to work on Monday? Why, so you
can earn enough to be able to afford to tear across Scotland
and back in a weekend.

Strictly on topic for this group, it's a vicious cycle.

And its a vicious cycle with an alarming appetite for non-
renewable resources. The car (almost certainly less than a
decade old) which we use to tear about the place has a huge
energy cost of manufacture, and uses large amounts of
plastics, etc, which are themselves made lagely of
petrochemicals. Substantial parts of it can never
effectively be recycled. It's using large amounts of fuel.
The roads it needs are polluting and destroying the fragile
ecosystems we say we're going to enjoy.

Break the cycle, sack your boss, go and live somewhere where
the facilities you want are on your doorstep, and find a way
to earn a living there - where you don't have to run a car
which can blast across Scotland and back in a weekend, where
your housing costs are likely to be cheaper, and where,
consequently, you can get by on a much smaller salary.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.

Simon Brooke said:

Break the cycle, sack your boss, go and live somewhere
where the facilities you want are on your doorstep, and
find a way to earn a living there - where you don't have
to run a car which can blast across Scotland and back in a
weekend, where your housing costs are likely to be
cheaper, and where, consequently, you can get by on a much
smaller salary.

I don't know of anywhere with all the facilities I want
on my doorstep, because I'm not immediately content to
potter about in a single location or be away from the
various benefits of an urban centre. At some level this
does mean I'm a selfish person. As does the fact I'm
willing to buy expensive bicycles while people are
starving. Nobody's perfect.

As it is, I've already made the decision to live somewhere
where *most* of the facilities I'm after are reasonably
close to me, and I do so despite a fairly low renumeration,
so I don't spend as much time tearing about the place as I
might. But I still like to drive or fly off to go skiing
etc., and I'm nasty enough that I'll continue to do so.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Gonzalez said:

Take care! Many so called "facts and evidence" posted on
this NG have been grossly distorted or presented in such
a way to give a false picture.

What, like all of the BHIT ones?

The most salient *facts* are helmet compulsion has reduced
cycling numbers everywhere it's been introduced and overall
safety increases with increased numbers cycling.

*Beware*

At the same time that NZ's cycling numbers decreased,
cycling numbers decreased in most other countries.

It may not be compulsion which has reduced cycling but NZ's
healthy economic growth. Aging populations also have an
effect on cycling rates (the elderly or infirm are less
likely to cycle than the young).

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter motorists.

What is important is that cycling is promoted as a safe and
healthy recreation and mode of transport, and so efforts
need to be put into ensuring that cycling is safe.

Please also note that I am against legislation to make
helmet wearing compulsory.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:04:45 +0100 someone who may be Gonzalez
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter
motorists.

That is because they remain in the car when one leaves it.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:04:45 +0100 someone who may be
Gonzalez <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter
motorists.

That is because they remain in the car when one leaves it.

My helmet usually remains on my bike when I leave it. At the
moment it is on my bar ends. When I lock my bike I usually
lock my helmet to my bike.

Just zis Guy said:

David Martin said:

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the occupant
has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.

But not kept warm. Hence the old adage: you can't have
your kayak and heat
it.

That's truly awful

Well done

Pete

Vivian said:

I thought that a troll was somebody who insulted other
members of the newsgroup. Now, I haven't insulted anyone.
Not yet at least! ;-)

Then you thought wrong.

Quoted message said:

So, I think you should take it back. Really.

Nope, on this thread at least, with that posting, you look
like a grade-A gold-plated certified troll.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

In message <[email hidden]>,
Gonzalez <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter
motorists.

I think here is a difference though here.

Most car drivers don't see car driving as something
particularly discretionary - they probably see it something
they have to do to get about.

I should imagine most regular cyclists wouldn't be put off
cycling by compulsory helmet laws, but I can see there might
be a large chunk occasional cyclists (the odd Sunday
afternoon with the kids etc.) who could be deterred
--
Chris French, Leeds

"Vivian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This guy? THIS GUY????????????????????????????/ I'M A
WOMAN!!!!!!!

Jeeeeesus.....!!

Vivian
-------

Fer chrissakes! This is a man's name too! Don't get yer
knickers in a twist!