Helmets

Gonzalez said:

*Beware*

At the same time that NZ's cycling numbers decreased,
cycling numbers decreased in most other countries.

At the same rate before and after compulsion?

Quoted message said:

It may not be compulsion which has reduced cycling but
NZ's healthy economic growth. Aging populations also have
an effect on cycling rates (the elderly or infirm are less
likely to cycle than the young).

Canada hasn't exactly been posting record profits AFAICT,
but it went down there too IIRC. Are you sure about the
aging population one? Cycling in many countries is primarily
recreational rather than utilitarian, and older people
generally have more leisure time.

Quoted message said:

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter
motorists.

A total red herring. Where there is no mass utility cycling
culture in developed countries the car is typically a
utility vehicle where the cycle is more purely recreational.
And if you have to drive to work then you have to drive to
work or lose your income. If you can't be bothered to take a
spin on your bike, then don't. And furthermore it's the case
that the comfort issues (psychologically from the aesthetics
and the fact that wearing snug chinstraps isn't something
many people like, given a choice, plus the extra sweat from
an unbreathable shield of foam) of cycle helmets are much
greater than those of car seatbelts.

Quoted message said:

What is important is that cycling is promoted as a safe
and healthy recreation and mode of transport, and so
efforts need to be put into ensuring that cycling is safe.

Yes, agreed. But helmets don't do that.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Reply to [Not Responding]

Quoted message said:

Government and media have portrayed cycling as a dangerous
activity for the last twenty years. So not surprising the
wider population think that cyclists are insane to put
themselves at such risk at all; let alone without a
plastic hat. Which *must* help, mustn't it?

Incidentally, I see from a catalogue that the premium helmet
in the Bell range is something called the "X-ray"; they also
do the "Delirium". Nice to see the *manufacturers*
projecting such a positive image of cycling...

--
Mark, UK. We hope to hear him swear, we love to hear him
squeak, We like to see him biting fingers in his horny beak.

Gonzalez said:

It may not be compulsion which has reduced cycling but
NZ's healthy economic growth

Unlikely. In the UK, cyclists are /more/ likely to have
above average income, be house owners, be car owners
and so on.

Quoted message said:

Aging populations also have an effect on cycling rates
(the elderly or infirm are less likely to cycle than
the young).

So the population of Australia got 40% older the day the
helmet law was passed, and have since become younger
again? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter
motorists.

From killing themselves and other people? No, it doesn't.
Well spotted: the seat belt law failed to save lives. As did
the motorcycle helmet law.

Quoted message said:

What is important is that cycling is promoted as a safe
and healthy recreation and mode of transport, and so
efforts need to be put into ensuring that cycling is safe.

Correct. Good ways to promote cycling as safe and healthy
include: not telling people it is so dangerous that you need
this special protective equipment...

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

Vivian said:

Somebody made a mistake in the registry, apparently. Or
at least that's what my parents told me when I complained
about my name being a male one!!

No such problems with my name. Guy André Chapman. Guy as
in bloke, André from the greek andros or bloke, chap as in
bloke and man as in bloke. No danger of gender confusion
here ;-)

Are your parents fans of Catch-22, Mr Bloke Bloke
Blokebloke? 🙂

Regards,

-david

n Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:18:54 +0100, chris French
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Most car drivers don't see car driving as something
particularly discretionary - they probably see it something
they have to do to get about.

There is also a difference bwteen "your car is fitted with a
seat belt, so wear it" and "cycling is so dangerous that you
absolutely must not do it without this special protective
equipment, which incidentally you must buy separately at
extra cost and replace regularly" - to which the response is
likely to be "oh, if it's that dangeorus maybe I won't
bother" - yet another one to add to the long list of excuses
for lardy lifestyle choices.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Break the cycle, sack your boss, go and live somewhere
where the facilities you want are on your doorstep, and
find a way to earn a living there - where you don't have
to run a car which can blast across Scotland and back in
a weekend, where your housing costs are likely to be
cheaper, and where, consequently, you can get by on a
much smaller salary.

I don't know of anywhere with all the facilities I want on
my doorstep,

[SNIP]

Sorry, that wasn't in the least intended to be a personal
attack, more a musing about how we all behave. This evening
I drove my 4x4 eight miles to the nearest fish and chip shop
and eight miles back again because I couldn't be bothered to
cook, so I'm not in a good position to criticise anybody.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

Wise man with foot in mouth use opportunity to clean toes.
;; the Worlock

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:23:57 +0100 someone who may be Gonzalez
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

My helmet usually remains on my bike when I leave it. At
the moment it is on my bar ends. When I lock my bike I
usually lock my helmet to my bike.

I see few bikes with helmets locked to them.

However, I do see documents calling on various parts of
government to provide helmet lockers "to encourage cycling".
I sometimes wonder if these officials are as stupid as they
appear, or having a joke at my expense.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Gonzalez said:

My helmet usually remains on my bike when I leave it. At
the moment it is on my bar ends. When I lock my bike I
usually lock my helmet to my bike.

I don't like putting saturated hats on.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior said:

He he. I want one. It'd be worth taking up kayaking just
to play with that!

Though point of order, m'lud, that's a canoe, not a kayak.
Makes a change though, most people in the UK call kayaks
canoes rather than the other way around...

Pete.

That's only cos they associate the word for proper boat with
daft sitty in thing 🙂
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

James Annan said:

Peter Clinch said:

I think it's more that a sea kayaker's definition of "all
over the country", plus lack of subsidised Union transits
and trailers, that makes the principle difference here.
Getting between event courses used by universities with
subsidised sport clubs and getting to obscure bits of
Scottish coastline with one's own resources are rather
different jobs!

Not entirely sure why the location makes a particular
difference, it is either where the boat is stored or
it is not.

As for subsidised transits, the once I did the the driving
it was in a hired car with a towbar. But nevertheless, I
will accept that a car is as necessary as a sea kayak. :-)

Quite.

A car is about as near to a necessity as you can get[1] if
kayaking is your hobby just as a van is a necessity if
delivering stuff is your trade.

[1] Yes, recumbent canoe-carriers *exist*, as do 8 Freights
but both are irrelevent for most people in these
circumstances.

The original point was that

Quoted message said:

Cars are used often for transport where there are no easily
substitutable alternative forms of transport.

For the vast majority of car users this is simply not true.

Simon Brooke said:

Sorry, that wasn't in the least intended to be a personal
attack, more a musing about how we all behave.

Nae bother, it wasn't taken as one. We do have to look at
ourselves and think about how we can do better, even while
also realising that there will always be room for
improvement.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

in message <[email hidden]>, [Not

Responding (') said:

A car is about as near to a necessity as you can get[1] if
kayaking is your hobby

No 'tisn't. If you launch your kayak where you live (or
within ten miles of where you live) then a car is not
necessary at all. If you keep your kayak close to where you
launch it then a car is not necessary at all.

It's only if you insist on transporting your kayak long
distances that a car becomes desirable... and a friend of
mine turned up here last year with two sea kayaks, one, his
old one, rigid and strapped to the top of his car, and the
other, newer, more modern and in his opinion vastly
preferable, neatly rolled up in a rucksack in the boot. That
rucksack would have fitted nicely on a BOB Yak.

Needless to say when we went out together I got the
rigid boat...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; lovely alternative to
rice.

in message <[email hidden]>, [Not

Responding (') said:

James Annan said:

Peter Clinch said:

I think it's more that a sea kayaker's definition of
"all over the country", plus lack of subsidised Union
transits and trailers, that makes the principle
difference here. Getting between event courses used by
universities with subsidised sport clubs and getting to
obscure bits of Scottish coastline with one's own
resources are rather different jobs!

Not entirely sure why the location makes a particular
difference, it is either where the boat is stored or
it is not.

As for subsidised transits, the once I did the the driving
it was in a hired car with a towbar. But nevertheless, I
will accept that a car is as necessary as a sea kayak. :-)

Quite.

A car is about as near to a necessity as you can get[1] if
kayaking is your hobby just as a van is a necessity if
delivering stuff is your trade.

And as an afterthought...

Here <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/kayak.jpg> is
a picture of the kayak that fits in a rucksack.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a
sixteen bit ;; patch to an eight bit operating system
originally coded for a ;; four bit microprocessor and
sold by a two-bit company that ;; can't stand one bit of
competition -- anonymous

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

On 21/4/04 1:49 pm, in article 1082551906.17232.0@nnrp-t71-
03.news.uk.clara.net, "Jon Senior"

jon_AT_restlesslemon.co.uk said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

> He he. I want one. It'd be worth taking up kayaking
> just to play with

that!

Quoted message said:

Though point of order, m'lud, that's a canoe, not a
kayak. Makes a change though, most people in the UK
call kayaks canoes rather than the other way around...

S'just a small boat right?

What is the difference (If it can be explained in less
than 3 lines)?

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the occupant
has a splashdeck and appropriate competence. Canoe is open
and sinks when filled with water (if it has no additional
buoyancy.

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated wheras a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

..d

Point of order m'lud (god I wish I'd been able to contribute
to the thread when it was live) My mate can roll his open,
just needs a few air bags thats all. C1 (and c2) is paddled
kneeling, nad has decks, and spray decks, though I have to
admit I'm not sure that which category it comes under🙂 My
Canoe has tow *seats* in it, and Martha always paddles
sitting down, I kneel when paddling solo however.

I wpul categories as follows A Kayak is based on the inut
sea boat and has full lenght decks A (modern) canoe is based
pn the native american (and canadian) canoes, both twig and
bark construction and dug out construction.

Like the worls of bikes, there are may mixesa nd
crossovers of types.

Oh, and a Pete C wind up comment 'Twice the Paddle, half the
man' HtH ;o)

--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

On 22/4/04 10:35 am, in article
[email hidden], "Simon Brooke"

Quoted message said:

And as an afterthought...

Here <URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/tmp/kayak.jpg>
is a picture of the kayak that fits in a rucksack.

Now that looks nice.. All you need now is to tow a small
inflatable dinghy with the MTB on it and you could go
anywhere ;-)

or try shuttlebikeusa.comshuttlebikeusa.comOpen ↗

..d

Simon Brooke said:

It's only if you insist on transporting your kayak long
distances that a car becomes desirable... and a friend of
mine turned up here last year with two sea kayaks, one,
his old one, rigid and strapped to the top of his car, and
the other, newer, more modern and in his opinion vastly
preferable, neatly rolled up in a rucksack in the boot.
That rucksack would have fitted nicely on a BOB Yak.

I tried a friend's Feathercraft last year (judging from the
pic you posted a link to, the same model as you're referring
to), and it was... okay. Paddled quite nicely, certainly,
but it was a /major/ PITA to load decent quantities of kit
into and also substantially harder to roll. Its owner wasn't
entirely convinced either, and was looking to sell it on. A
mutual pal who's a 5* sea paddler who can get anything to
work well also failed to be convinced it would make a good
general purpose craft, though for short range pottering
would be fine. This is before we get into the relatively
difficult care, maintenance and feeding (oh, what fun
rinsing every one of the internal alloy struts afterwards to
stop salt corrosion was each time we took it out! (not)).

So despite the increased portability, I don't especially
want one (and I had the chance of the above at a very
substantially lower price than retail, and it was basically
good as new).

Horses == Courses, and that one isn't much use to me.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

David Martin said:

Quoted message said:

What is the difference (If it can be explained in less
than 3 lines)?

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the
occupant has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.
Canoe is open and sinks when filled with water (if it has
no additional buoyancy.

Quoted message said:

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated wheras a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

The latter definition is better. A canoe is typically
paddled kneeling with a single-bladed paddle, a kayak is
paddled sitting with a double bladed paddle. The first
description doesn't work for things like a C1, which looks
like a whitewater kayak in every respect (closed deck, can
be rolled) but does have a kneeling support rather than a
seat and is paddled with only half a paddle...

Roos

But you can Paddle a canoe witha double blade. and sit down
to do it. Or stand up, and paddle witha a single blade or a
double. Or punt it with a pole. And you can role them. Or
sail them. Or put a motor on them. In fact the canoe is far
more versitile than the kayak
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

David Martin said:

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the
occupant has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.
Canoe is open and sinks when filled with water (if it
has no additional buoyancy.

Sorry, nul points :-(

sprint K boats have open cockpits and will swamp if they
go over, spraydeck in place or not, as there's no way to
brace yourself in to roll. Whitewater Cs are closed and
though harder to roll than a roughly equivalent kayak it
can certainly be done.

Difference is in ancestry and the paddling style. Canoes
are derived from Native American designs and use a single
bladed paddle used on one side of the craft, kayaks are
derived from Inuit and Aleut designs and are powered with
a double-ended paddle used on both sides alternately.

Designs tend to be merging in some areas, especially
inflatables where the basic ancestry is more canoe but the
paddles are double ended.

Quoted message said:

Also a kayak is typically paddled seated whereas a canoe
should typically be paddled kneeling

Nearer... Most open canoes have seats which are used in
calmer water, though you kneel or half-kneel in the rough
stuff. Serious white water canoes often have a saddle,
though it's used in a kneeling position.

Pete.

I really ought to read to the end of a thread befor I but
my paddle[1]
in 🙂

Seemed mor appropriate given the context 🙂

BTW Pete, you are me AICMFP
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

"From: "Ningi" <

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

David Martin said:

Kayak has a deck and can happily be rolled if the
occupant has a splashdeck and appropriate competence.

But not kept warm. Hence the old adage: you can't have
your kayak and

heat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it.

"My Word", Norden or Muir.

Mike Sales

"Vivian" <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

I know!! Somebody made a mistake in the registry,
apparently. Or at least that's what my parents told me
when I complained about my name being a male one!!

Quoted message said:

"knickers in a twist".... 10 years in this country and I
still don't know what that means. Care to explain to this
foreigner?

Have you never tried to dress quickly after swimming? ;-)

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden] Edgware.