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Helmets

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UK and Europe
Published
19 April 2004
Last activity
26 November 2012
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Vivian
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  1. On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:07:34 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ian
    Smith <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Nope, on this thread at least, with that posting, you look
    like a grade-A gold-plated certified troll.

    While I agree, I hope this will not drive the other person
    away. A bit of lurking in a newsgroup is advised to
    understand the character, which would have uncovered the
    number of threads on the subject of idiots who advocate
    compulsory cycle helmets.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

  2. David Hansen said:

    On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:20:33 +0100 someone who may be
    "Vivian" <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Did the obligatory use of helmets for motorcyclist reduce
    their numbers? Nope.

    ISTR that it did.


    It's the main thing that stops me buying a motorcycle. My
    mother is the other ;-) (my wife doesn't mind)

  3. In article <[email hidden]>,
    usenet- [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Take care! Many so called "facts and evidence" posted
    on this NG have been grossly distorted or presented
    in such a


    way to give a false picture.

    Point taken, but what I really meant was that I've changed
    my attitude from making assumptions based on spurious
    instinctive reasoning to considering the evidence - I'm
    not necessarily saying that I entirely accept all these
    'facts' at face value (I'm wary enough of newsgroups to
    avoid that pitfall - also wary enough to avoid the pitfall
    Vivian has leapt straight into).


    I agree with everthing dave says, and would add the
    succint rejoiners

    Do your own research and

    Make your own decisions

    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  4. But I only joined 3 days ago...!

    --
    Vivian
    -------
    "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever learned in school".
    No Surrender

    "Jon Senior" <jon@restless_REMOVE_lemon.co.uk> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    A troll is someone who goes around NGs "trolling" for arguments. The aim


    is

    Quoted message said:

    to provoke a response. Anyone who had lurked here for a while would have
    seen about 1 thread / day on the compulsory helmet bill and would have
    already seen the general opinion here. This is why people might think you
    were trolling.

    Jon

  5. Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Gonzalez

    <snipped>
    At the same time that NZ's cycling numbers decreased,
    cycling numbers decreased in most other countries.

    It may not be compulsion which has reduced cycling but NZ's
    healthy economic growth.

    Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter motorists.

    Has anyone claimed that the MHL in NZ was exclusively responsible for the decline in cycling here - no one has, to my knowledge.
    Many of us do however claim that cycling has decreased markedly (and particularly with younger cyclists i.e. children) since 1994, and that we believe that the cycle helmet-law has significantly contributed to that decline. Obviously there are other factors in the mix - and the various factors are decidedly difficult to separate out.
    The Land Transport Safety Authority (LTSA) have responded to cyclinghealth's (Helmet Law Truth and Honesty -www.cyclinghealth.org.nz) challenges that the Law is a failure and that the Law has contributed to the decline of cycling - with denial - so when Gonzalez spouts off the statement above I am inclined to suspect that he is but a LTSA parrot.

    Gonzalez deems it necessary to claim that he is anti-compulsion - why so? - and yet he seems intent on challenging the main claim being used in the UK against compulsion - that it would put (some) people off cycling.

    His repitition of Vivian's statement "Compulsory seat belt wearing didn't seem to deter motorists." is a straw man analogy - why on earth would anyone think that it would deter motorists, and, irregardless of whether it did or didn't, it has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not mandatory helmet wearing will end up being enough of a deterrent to some, such that they won't cycle because of it.
    Suggesting that a helmet law won't deter some from cycling because the seat belt law didn't deter motorists is utterly stupid.

    Despite Gonzalez's protestations that he is anti-compulsion - I suspect that he is a closet compulsionist - an imposter.

    Roger

  6. In message <[email hidden]>, Vivian
    <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
    2.193.157...

    Quoted message said:


    Not to mention the complete lack of explanation for your
    views, especially as they're controversial.

    Got RSI and sometimes typing is not easy. But I'll explain
    now (typing with 2 fingers!).

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator.

    You don't know that at all - you are making a big
    assumption - how do you know what would have happened if a
    helmet was worn?

    Helmets offer very little protection against such violent
    head injury - I doubt it would have made much if any
    difference.

    Quoted message said:

    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding this!

    Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys think, so I'll
    just go and read the other threads.

    Enjoy :-)??

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legislation worked elsewhere where it has been
    tried?).

    There's no way we'll know that till it's in place.


    We can infer from other countries.

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, the law will be passed, but it does have to be
    voted, right? Maybe it won't happen.

    Can't make sense of that statement. IMO It's seems unlikely
    that the Martlew bill will be passed, but yes of course
    there would need to be a vote (in fact a number of them)

    --
    Chris French, Leeds

  7. On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:30:11 GMT someone who may be "fred"
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    This is a man's name too!

    Agreed. I was always taken by the character played by Adrian
    Edmonson in "The Young Ones".

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
    F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
    government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

  8. I know!! Somebody made a mistake in the registry,
    apparently. Or at least that's what my parents told me when
    I complained about my name being a male one!!

    "knickers in a twist".... 10 years in this country and I
    still don't know what that means. Care to explain to this
    foreigner?

    Vivian
    -------
    "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever
    learned in school". No Surrender

    "fred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:nRAhc.201116$oR5.147615@pd7tw3no...

    Quoted message said:

    Fer chrissakes! This is a man's name too! Don't get yer
    knickers in a twist!

  9. "Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Not to mention the complete lack of explanation for your
    views, especially as they're controversial.

    Got RSI and sometimes typing is not easy. But I'll explain
    now (typing with 2 fingers!).

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator. The latter is 17 years old, left
    like that by a hit and run - with a stolen car, but that's
    not the issue now. I use a helmet myself, doesn't bother me.
    But I'm an adult. The law will be targeting under 16's, i.e.
    kids. And I still think it's just for protection, really.

    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding this!

    Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys think, so I'll
    just go and read the other threads.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm interested to know your views on the other debates on
    the law, particularly whether you think mandatory helmet
    laws have worked well in other places that have
    introduced them.


    I don't know where else has it been introduced.

    Quoted message said:

    Also wondered what you think about how dangerous cycling
    is compared to other things (walking etc).

    I don't consider cycling dangerous; I consider drivers,
    especially in a city like London, bloody dangeours!!

    Quoted message said:

    Basically, 1) Is parliamentry legislation needed for the
    specific activity


    of cycling?

    Wow, tough one, especially at quarter to 1 am! Can I
    answer tomorrow?

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legislation worked elsewhere where it has
    been tried?).

    There's no way we'll know that till it's in place.

    Besides, the law will be passed, but it does have to be
    voted, right? Maybe it won't happen.

    Vivian
    -------
    "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever
    learned in school". No Surrender

  10. Peter Clinch said:
    Gonzalez said:

    Take care! Many so called "facts and evidence" posted on
    this NG have been grossly distorted or presented in such
    a way to give a false picture.

    What, like all of the BHIT ones?

    The most salient *facts* are helmet compulsion has reduced
    cycling numbers everywhere it's been introduced and
    overall safety increases with increased numbers cycling.

    Stick to those and the argument is sound and indisputable -
    go onto the risk compensation ground or the no better than
    blancmange ground and, ipso facto, the argument is weakened
    by being disputable.

    pk

  11. "Vivian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I know!! Somebody made a mistake in the registry,
    apparently. Or at least that's what my parents told me
    when I complained about my name being a


    male

    Quoted message said:

    one!!

    "knickers in a twist".... 10 years in this country and I
    still don't know what that means.

    Why? Don't you wear any? ;-)

  12. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:21:22 +0100, "Vivian" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
    2.193.157...

    Quoted message said:


    Not to mention the complete lack of explanation for your
    views, especially as they're controversial.

    Got RSI and sometimes typing is not easy. But I'll explain
    now (typing with 2 fingers!).

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator. The latter is 17 years old, left
    like that by a hit and run - with a stolen car, but that's
    not the issue now. I use a helmet myself, doesn't bother
    me. But I'm an adult. The law will be targeting under
    16's, i.e. kids. And I still think it's just for
    protection, really.

    I doubt that the absence of a helmet had much to do with the
    outcomes; particularly where someone gets whacked by a tonne
    of metal driven by a car thief. There's no cycle helmet on
    Earth that'll protect against that. Not even the
    manufacturers make that claim.

    In fact, cycle helmet manufacturers state "not to be used
    with motor vehicles" which rather undermines the uninformed
    opinion that helmets are needed as they offer protection
    from todays high levels and speed of traffic. They don't;
    and you won't find any manufacturer that'd even claim that.

    The fact that you know of two tragic incidents tells us
    nothing of what is good for a population. I know several
    people who smoked 60 [censored] a day but lived into and beyond
    their 80s. But I wouldn't use that as the basis for a
    health policy.

    If you're legislating for a population, you need to look at
    population scale metrics. In the case of smoking these will
    tell you it is a Bad Thing. In the case of cycling these
    will tell you it is a Good Thing. Combined with the stats on
    cycling decline following MHL, it is clear that on average
    you are more likely to have a longlived and healthy
    population through cycling in countries that have no MHL.

    Your point that we're talking about "i.e. kids" is
    interesting; why do you think this vulnerable section of
    society should be put into more greater danger of obesity,
    heart disease and early death than they already are?

    Quoted message said:


    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding this!

    Yes. That reaction is very common.

    Government and media have portrayed cycling as a dangerous
    activity for the last twenty years. So not surprising the
    wider population think that cyclists are insane to put
    themselves at such risk at all; let alone without a plastic
    hat. Which *must* help, mustn't it?

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys think, so I'll
    just go and read the other threads.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm interested to know your views on the other debates on
    the law, particularly whether you think mandatory helmet
    laws have worked well in other places that have
    introduced them.


    I don't know where else has it been introduced.

    Quoted message said:

    Also wondered what you think about how dangerous cycling
    is compared to other things (walking etc).

    I don't consider cycling dangerous; I consider drivers,
    especially in a city like London, bloody dangeours!!

    Can you give me a URL of a lightweight, cheap cycle helmet
    that will give protection against a car travelling at speed?

    You are right in that motor vehicles (and their drivers) are
    a source of danger. There are many ways for both the
    individual and government to mitigate this hazard (training,
    riding skills, good lights, road design, speed limits) but
    helmets is not one of them.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Basically, 1) Is parliamentry legislation needed for the
    specific activity


    of cycling?

    Wow, tough one, especially at quarter to 1 am! Can I answer
    tomorrow?

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legislation worked elsewhere where it has been
    tried?).

    There's no way we'll know that till it's in place.

    By this, I hope you mean that it's an utterly daft bit of
    legislation that has no provable benefit. Unless you
    really believe in accepting random restrictions on
    freedom on the hope that it might be useful but "there's
    no way of knowing".

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, the law will be passed, but it does have to be
    voted, right? Maybe it won't happen.

    Vivian
    -------
    "We learned more from a three minute record than we ever
    learned in school". No Surrender

  13. Vivian said:

    Somebody made a mistake in the registry, apparently. Or at
    least that's what my parents told me when I complained
    about my name being a male one!!

    No such problems with my name. Guy André Chapman. Guy as
    in bloke, André from the greek andros or bloke, chap as
    in bloke and man as in bloke. No danger of gender
    confusion here ;-)

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  14. Vivian said:

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator.

    Point of information: no you don't. You know of two cyclists
    who suffered head injuries. Recently two seventy-year-old
    cyclists suffered almost identical crashes; one died the
    other did not. The one who survived was the one who was not
    wearing a helmet.

    As you will find out when yo do your research, helmets are
    not designed to provide protection in impacts involving
    motor vehicles. The forces routinely exceed those to which
    Formula 1 helmets are tested. Once a car is involved, all
    bets are off.

    I have been hit by a car and undoubtedly my wooly balaclava
    Saved My Life [tm].

    Quoted message said:

    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding this!

    I think Eric Martlew was a bit taken aback, as well ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys think, so I'll
    just go and read the other threads.

    Make a cup of tea, it will take some time ;-)

    Quoted message said:

    I don't consider cycling dangerous; I consider drivers,
    especially in a city like London, bloody dangeours!!

    Quite. And since most of their child victims are
    pedestrians not cyclists, why single out the cyclists? And
    why apply the law to offroad cycling which accounts for 90%
    of cycling and only half of cycling injuries, so is clearly
    substantially safer?

    And first and foremost, why start with the victims?

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legislation worked elsewhere where it has been
    tried?). There's no way we'll know that till it's in
    place.

    We can look at a number of other jurisdictions where it has
    been tried. In every case there has been a substantial drop
    in cycling, teenage cycling remains depressed years later,
    and head injury rates do not go down. In the USA over a
    period of years helmet use went up from 17% to 50% and
    cyclist fatality rates per mile went up by 40%. Even the
    Government admits that it knows of no case where cyclist
    safety has improved with increased helmet wearing.

    Of course it could be different in the UK. Just as
    compulsory seat belts and motorcycle helmets might have
    saved lives in the UK despite the fact that they didn't
    anywhere else. They didn't of course, but they might have
    done. The difference there is that there was no known
    deterrent effect to driving from seat belt use. With cycling
    there is a very well established link between helemt
    compulsion and reduced cycle use, to the point where even
    without considering lost health benefits the helmet law is
    considered to have failed cost-benefit analysis in Australia
    and New Zealand. In Alberta the child-only law has been
    followed by a steep rise in fatality rates.

    The Liddites don't want youto know all this stuff, though,
    so they keep repeating "helmets save 85% of head injuries".
    Which comes form a report which was essentially withdrawn by
    its authors nearly ten years ago following extensive
    criticisms of their methodology. Which included attributing
    to helmets the difference in injury rates between solo black
    and hispanic street cyclists, and white middle class
    families riding on bike paths. Simply replacing their
    control group helmet wearing rate with the rates from street
    counts /by one of the report's own authors/ reduces the
    predicted benefit of helmets to zero, within the limits of
    statistical confidence.

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, the law will be passed, but it does have to be
    voted, right? Maybe it won't happen.

    Only because a lot of people who would much rather be doing
    other things are doing an incredible amount of work to make
    sure it doesn't.

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

  15. Vivian said:

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one i=


    s 6

    Quoted message said:

    feet under and the other is a vegetable plugged to a
    respirator. The la=


    tter

    Quoted message said:

    is 17 years old, left like that by a hit and run - with a
    stolen car, b=


    ut

    Quoted message said:

    that's not the issue now.=20

    This assumes (and it's a common assumption) that a cycle
    helmet *would*=20 have made a substantial difference. But if
    you look at the=20 specifications they are designed to then
    it is quite clear that they=20 cannot be expected to do
    anything much in a major collision at speed.=20 Add in the
    fact that there are no noticeable improvements in kill
    and=20 serious injury rates after helmet compulsion has been
    introduced in all=20 the places it has happened and the
    supposition that the above 2 cases=20 would have been better
    off starts to look rather shaky. You will only=20 *know*
    with controlled experiments, and they can't be done.

    You can say that any extra protection will make some
    difference so it=20 must be good, but if there's real merit
    in that argument then it would=20 apply to protecting
    yourself from high velocity rifle fire with a=20 leather
    jacket on the grounds it's quite useful against duck shot.
    It=20 doesn't work like that.

    Quoted message said:

    I use a helmet myself, doesn't bother me. But I'm an
    adult. The law will be targeting under 16's, i.e.
    kids. And I =


    still

    Quoted message said:

    think it's just for protection, really.

    On an individual basis of a single rider with a helmet on
    that might be=20 the case, but we need to look at the bigger
    picture. Everywhere=20 compulsion has been introduced
    cycling numbers have been greatly=20 reduced. It is
    practically universally held that cyclists as a whole=20 are
    safer if there are more of them, because of the greater
    awareness of =

    them, so any measure that reduces the numbers increases the
    chance of an =

    accident. Given the choice, would you rather have a
    collision while wearing a=20 helmet, or not have the
    collision at all. Also the case that the =A320 spent on a
    lid could more usefully be spent =

    for actual prevention of accidents in the first place,
    rather than=20 *possibly* mitigating the ones that do
    happen. For example, better=20 brakes, cycle servicing,
    rider training.

    Quoted message said:

    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding t=


    his!

    That's the problem with "common sense". Quite a few of us
    here have=20 come into this issue thinking it was obviously
    right to wear a helmet=20 all the time on a bike, but having
    done our own research have changed=20 our minds. The way
    people are independently reaching one conclusion=20 more
    than others when they look deeper into it is quite telling
    in itself=
    =2E

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know where else has it been introduced.

    Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Nobody has managed to
    demonstrate any=20 clear benefit from any of them. There
    have been clear negatives, such=20 as a substantial drop
    in cycling.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't consider cycling dangerous; I consider drivers,
    especially in a=


    city

    Quoted message said:

    like London, bloody dangeours!!

    If you're cycling with bloody dangerous drivers on the
    same road then=20 cycling is bloody dangerous. But look at
    the actual accident rates and=20 it comes out as
    remarkably safe.

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legisla=


    tion

    Quoted message said:

    worked elsewhere where it has been tried?).
    =20
    There's no way we'll know that till it's in place.

    Though it has a proven track record in the aforementioned
    countries, all =

    of which have broadly comparable cycling cultures to the UK
    AFAICT, of=20 not doing any good. So where it is in place we
    can look at it and see=20 it hasn't worked. So why should it
    magically work here when it hasn't=20 worked there?

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, the law will be passed, but it does have to be
    voted, right? =


    Maybe

    Quoted message said:

    it won't happen.

    It's a Private Member's Bill, getting its second reading
    tomorrow. It=20 will not necessarily become law, it could
    be thrown out completely. I=20 truly hope it won't happen,
    not because I hate helmets but because=20 similar measures
    have proven track records of being public health own=20
    goals that have achieved nothing positive at all and
    reduced the overall =

    health of the places they've been introduced.

    Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
    660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
    1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
    [email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinch

  16. in message <[email hidden]>, Vivian

    (') said:


    "Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message news:[email protected]
    92.193.157...

    Quoted message said:


    Not to mention the complete lack of explanation for your
    views, especially as they're controversial.

    Got RSI and sometimes typing is not easy. But I'll explain
    now (typing with 2 fingers!).

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator. The latter is 17 years old, left
    like that by a hit and run - with a stolen car, but that's
    not the issue now.

    A cycle helmet isn't going to make any difference at all if
    you're hit by a car. It's designed for impacts up to 12mph.
    The injury caused by an impact varies with the fourth power
    of the closing speed, so an impact with a closing speed of
    24mph (that's like cycling along at a nice gentle 6mph and
    being hit from behind by someone not breaking the speed
    limit in a 30 zone) has *sixteen* times the injury effect
    that a helmet can protect against. An impact with a closing
    speed of 30mph
    (e.g. being hit at a junction by someone abiding by a
    30mph speed
    limit) has thirty nine times the injury efect a helmet can
    protect against.

    Given that your friend was hit by the driver of a stolen
    car, the speed was probably considerably more than 30mph. At
    a closing speed of 60mph the injury effect is six hundred
    and twenty five times as much as a helmet is designed to
    protect against.

    Cycle helmets are good if you fall off your bike at
    relatively low speeds with no other vehicle involved. They
    are a complete irrelevence in two-vehicle traffic speed
    accidents.

    In other words, a helmet would not have made any difference
    at all for your friend.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
    jasmine.org.uk~simon

    ;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the
    time.

  17. Quoted message said:

    I know two cases in which the absence of a helmet costed 2
    lives; one is 6 feet under and the other is a vegetable
    plugged to a respirator. The latter is 17 years old, left
    like that by a hit and run - with a stolen car, but that's
    not the issue now.

    (there used to be a big paragraph here, but have a look at
    these two pages instead - they're better written :-)

    www.cyclehelmets.org/mainframes.html#1054.html I am a senior
    solicitor for Cycle Aid Ltd. Over the past 14 years I have
    dealt with numerous cases where, despite safety helmets
    being worn, cyclists have suffered head injuries of the
    maximum severity.

    I am currently acting in three cases. One cyclist has
    sustained a fracture of the medulla, rendering him totally
    paralysed with eye movement only, whilst being constantly
    alert. A motorist travelling at 70
    m.p.h., who failed to brake prior to impact, hit him
    from behind.

    Second, a cyclist who was struck by a lorry emerging from
    a side road, who, as a result of a head injury, has a
    cranial lobotomy.

    Third, a cyclist cycling across a pelican crossing was hit
    by an oncoming vehicle chancing the amber lights. This
    cyclist sustained a serious and permanently disabling head
    injury, which has left him with profound reasoning problems.

    I quote from the reports of one of England's most eminent
    neurological surgeons, who advised in two of these cases:

    "Turning now to the question of the cycle helmet. The BMA
    has recommended that cycle helmets should be worn by pedal
    cyclists but the evidence in support of this recommendation
    is at best slim and does not give the whole picture relating
    to head injury and cycle helmets. Most experienced trauma
    surgeons believe that cycle helmets give only very limited
    head protection. Studies in Australia have shown that they
    give only marginal prevention of mild head injury and no
    effect on severe head injury, or death.

    "That is certainly my own position ... They may be useful
    in preventing scalp lacerations, provided the helmet stays
    on the head.

    "[Mr. X] had a really severe serious closed head injury. I
    think a cycle helmet would have made no difference of any
    significant nature."

    Accordingly, it is my view and experience in dealing with
    head injured cyclists that the conclusions reached by this
    neurosurgeon are correct. When there is a major impact, a
    cycle helmet offers little protection.

    I would add that it is my experience that the defendant's
    solicitors are abandoning allegations of contributory
    negligence for failure to wear cycle helmets.

    Simon Holt

    www.cyclehelmets.org/mainframes.html#1081.html Helmet
    standards and capabilities The opinion of Brian Walker, one
    of the leading experts on the mechanics of helmets, and
    whose company Head Protection Evaluations is the principal
    UK test laboratory for helmets and head protection systems
    of all kinds

    Cycle Helmets I have read so many opinions over the past few
    years on this subject, which in the main have been
    technically adrift of reality or based on misinformation. I
    felt that it was time to respond.

    Helmet standards Having personally conducted or supervised
    thousands of impact and other tests on cycle helmets, all of
    which were recorded, I note the following:

    1. The manufacturers of all forms of safety helmet have to
    sell their goods in a brutally competitive global
    market. With very few exceptions, safety helmets are
    made down to the lowest standard permitted within a
    given 'local' market.

    2. Due in the main to the introduction of the weak
    harmonised EN1078 European standard, present day cycle
    helmets generally offer a lower level of protection than
    those sold in the early 1990s.

    In the early 1990s, market research suggested that in excess
    of 90% of the cycle helmets sold in the UK were certified to
    the Snell B-90 standard, at that time the most stringent
    cycle helmet standard in the world. In 1998, Head Protection
    Evaluations (HPE), my safety helmet laboratory, conducted a
    test programme for the Consumers Association (reported in
    Which? October 1998) to assess cycle helmets available in
    the UK. By that year all of the helmets were labelled to
    EN1078. The results showed that, with only one or two
    exceptions, the helmets tested were quite incapable of
    meeting the higher Snell B-90 standard, to which many of the
    models had been previously certified. Some helmets were even
    incapable of meeting the weak EN1078 standard.

    Some people argue that helmets are effective if 'properly
    worn'. How those words have haunted me through many years!
    Apart from some racing cyclists, I hardly ever see a cycle
    helmet worn properly. Cycle helmet retention systems are the
    worst of all. I consider it one of my biggest failings that
    I have not persuaded the helmet industry to come up with
    something much better. God knows, I have tried! Anyone who
    wears a cycle helmet will know just how long it takes to
    adjust the chin strap so that the helmet is both reasonably
    comfortable and sits firmly in place on the head. Try
    adjusting a cycle helmet on a infant's head – it's a
    nightmare and in my experience hardly ever achieved
    satisfactorily. In the HPE laboratory we have examined many
    cycle helmets that were manufactured in such a manner that
    correct adjustment was completely impossible.

    Clinical studies Medical case studies are often referred to
    as evidence for the effectiveness of cycle helmets. My own
    experience of studies in this field is that they very often
    arrive at erroneous conclusions. Certainly my ten years' of
    involvement with the Medical Commission on Accident
    Prevention at the Royal College of Surgeons in London
    illustrated that the recording of accident data in A & E
    departments is often limited in both detail and accuracy. It
    also varies enormously from one authority to another. In
    fairness, that this is hardly surprising when one considers
    that the priority must always be patient welfare, coupled
    with working within a highly stressful environment.

    Many studies ignore completely the differences between
    impacts involving only the injured cyclist and those
    resulting in collisions with motor vehicles, yet it is
    fundamental to assessing cycle helmet effectiveness.

    Evidence in court In a recent Court case, a respected
    materials specialist argued that a cyclist who was brain
    injured from what was essentially a fall from their cycle,
    without any real forward momentum, would not have had their
    injuries reduced or prevented by a cycle helmet. This event
    involved contact against a flat tarmac surface with an
    impact energy potential of no more than 75 joules (his
    estimate, with which I was in full agreement). The court
    found in favour of his argument. So a High Court has decided
    that cycle helmets do not prevent injury even when falling
    from a cycle onto a flat surface, with little forward
    momentum. Cycle helmets will almost always perform much
    better against a flat surface than any other.

    In other legal cases with which I have been involved, where
    a cyclist has been in collision with a motorised vehicle,
    the impact energy potentials generated were of a level
    which outstripped those we use to certify Grand Prix
    drivers helmets. In some accidents at even moderate motor
    vehicle speeds, energy potential levels in hundreds of
    joules were present.

    Concluding remarks My purpose is not to dissuade people who
    wish to, from wearing cycle helmets. They do, I promise,
    work a little better against a flat surface, than the Court
    decided in the case I cited above. After all the Snell B- 90
    standard called for four impacts on each test sample, two of
    which were tested against flat surfaces with an impact
    energy of 100 joules each. The tragedy is you cannot buy
    helmets to this standard any more. Manufacturers prefer the
    easier standard that they helped to write.

    Rather my purpose is to illustrate that the whole cycle
    helmet issue contains many hidden issues of which most
    researchers are quite unaware.

    Referring back to the Court case mentioned early, the very
    eminent QC under whose instruction I was privileged to work,
    tried repeatedly to persuade the equally eminent
    neurosurgeons acting for either side, and the technical
    expert, to state that one must be safer wearing a helmet
    than without. All three refused to so do, stating that they
    had seen severe brain damage and fatal injury both with and
    without cycle helmets being worn. In their view, the
    performance of cycle helmets is much too complex a subject
    for such a sweeping claim to be made.

    Brian Walker Head Protection Evaluations Farnham, Surrey, UK
    March 2004

    Quoted message said:

    I use a helmet myself, doesn't bother me.

    Good for you.

    Quoted message said:

    I got to admit that I'm quite surprise by the controversy
    surrounding this!

    Everyone says that :-)

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys think, so I'll
    just go and read the other threads.


    If you haven't already visited it

    ctc.org.ukCTC12ppleaf
    leta_w.pdf

    will give you pretty much the same arguments, but it's
    better written (and has those magic citations!). In the
    interests of not annoying any passing Net Nazies any more
    than I already have I won't cut and paste the whole thing.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm interested to know your views on the other debates on
    the law, particularly whether you think mandatory helmet
    laws have worked well in other places that have
    introduced them.


    I don't know where else has it been introduced.

    www.Cyclehelmets.org would be good for a bit of
    research then.

    Quoted message said:

    Wow, tough one, especially at quarter to 1 am! Can I
    answer tomorrow?

    Quoted message said:

    2) Is the proposed legislation going to work? (i.e. has
    similar legislation worked elsewhere where it has been
    tried?).

    There's no way we'll know that till it's in place.

    But we can get a good idea by looking at what happened in
    other places where similar laws were passed...

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Clinch said:

    Tell me how to get to Arisaig with 2x5m sea kayaks in an
    evening without using a private motor vehicle and I'll
    be interested and surprised.

    Happy to be of service :-)

    tricolour.net36.html


    There seems to be some cross-talk on these threads 🙂

    That's one to add to the list of thoughts one the peddle
    powered canoe transport 🙂

    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Clinch said:

    Tell me how to get to Arisaig with 2x5m sea kayaks in an
    evening without using a private motor vehicle and I'll
    be interested and surprised.

    Happy to be of service :-)

    tricolour.net36.html


    Hang on, thats just a double helmet isn't it :0)
    --
    .paul

    If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
    the sport for you.

  20. PK said:
    Quoted message said:

    The most salient *facts* are helmet compulsion has
    reduced cycling numbers everywhere it's been introduced
    and overall safety increases with increased numbers
    cycling.

    Quoted message said:

    Stick to those and the argument is sound and indisputable
    - go onto the risk compensation ground or the no better
    than blancmange ground and, ipso facto, the argument is
    weakened by being disputable.

    Up to a point, Lord Copper. The *facts* are that helmet
    compulsion (and indeed inceased helmets use) are strongly
    associated with reduced levels of cycling and increased
    injury rates. The business of risk compensation is a
    possible /explanation/ for the facts, which has not been
    properly tested because everybody ios so busy trying to
    reproduce Thompson, Rivara and Thompson's findings
    (impossible without finding equally disparate case and
    control groups, of course) that nobody is seriously studying
    the reasons /why/ helmets fail to deliver the benefits which
    Common Sense [tm] says they should.

    Risk compensation is a hypothesis, not a fact. It will never
    be anything else, because you can't prove a negative. There
    are, however, sufficient examples of what Dr Bob calls
    "balancing behaviour" to make it a very plausible hypothesis
    indeed, and one which is implicitly accepted by most road
    safety professionals and campaigners.

    The "no better than blancmange" bit is a slight
    misdirection. My comment here is that it's fine to wear a
    helmet as long as you remember that it's made of meringue
    covered in eggshell and ride accordingly. That is by way of
    counteracting the ludicrously inflated claims for the
    efficacy of helmets which may or may not be cotributing
    directly to risk compensation behaviour by helemted
    cyclists. I don't think anyone would dispute that it is Very
    Unwise to use the wearing of a helmet simply to take more
    risks without feeling threatened.

    There is another *fact* which can be dropped in here:
    a cracked helmet did not "save someone's life" it
    merely failed. Helmets are designed to absorb imact by
    plastic deformation; in brittle failure they absorb
    very little energy.

    Another *fact*: neurosurgeons are most concerned about
    rotational forces on the brain which lead to diffuse axonal
    injury and subdural haematoma (which also has other causes,
    of course); current research suggests that it is these
    rotational forces which are responsible for most permanent
    intellectual disablement and brain death. There is no
    mechanism by which helmets can mitigate these forces, and
    some evidence that they can make them worse.

    None of these things have persuaded me to wear a helemt or
    not. They have persuaded me that the choice not to wear a
    ahelmet is every it as defensible as the choice not to. And
    now perhaps more defensible, since according to the
    Government every cyclist wearing a helmet is voting in
    favour of compulsion (now do a count of this ng and see how
    many weareres are actually pro compulsion).

    --
    Guy
    ===
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
    posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
    Washington University

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