Yikes

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Tom Ace said:

The recent advance that has made a substantial difference for me
has been hub gearing. Rohloff and Nexus hubs make hub gearing
practical in more applications.

Quoted message said:

You can say that hub gearing is nothing new, just an improvement--
but the same is true about dating indexed shifting to the 1980s:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 19, 5:30 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 60s.

Quoted message said:

Indexed shifting was made for derailleur gearing before that, it

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wasn't widespread nor perfected. The first derailleur-gear bike I
owned was a Ross 5-speed with Shimano indexed shifting--around 1970.

Could say that the advance is cut-down twisted cogs
that take the hysteresis out of shifting, thus making
indexed shifting practical.

Let's not forget the dual spring-loaded pivot, slant parallelogram RD,
introduced by Shimano but based on the prior art of both Simplex (dual
pivot) and Suntour (slant parallelogram).

Suntour patented their first slant parallelogram RD in 1964 - the
Grand-Prix model. They had a worldwide patent on the slant parallelogram
design for the next 20 years.

Chas.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the
riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold
on the
decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in
the Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Guess again. They're still doing it in 2006, as seen in the photo I
took at the Tour last year. Please ignore the items in the
advertisement; not trying to cause problems here, but I don't have
the original photo handy to link to. I'll try to change it tonight.

http://www.chainreaction.com/citysportsjuly2007.htm

SPAMMER!!! LOL (Don't change it; it's perfect as is.)

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoth Tom Nakashima:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
> >genuine improvement?

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.

No, Avocet was not the first, by a long shot. CatEye had a couple of
models before them, and Rhode Gear ("Quantum"😉 and Hamilton-Eagle(?)
also preceded Avocet in the cyclecomputer market. I seem to recall at
least one of those featured LED. readouts, suitable LCD. displays not
yet being available.

For my money, the greatest advance in bicycle technology in the last
quarter century is the LED "blinky" tail light. These are an order of
magnitude more reliable than anything that came before, and they've
probably saved quite a few lives.

Sheldon "NEAMS" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| According to the latest official figures, |
| 43% of all statistics are totally worthless. |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Today we take the cyclometer for granted, but I look at it as one of the
jewels of cycling technology. It would be interesting to see who built the
first LED cyclometer.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>>> than '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Dear
>> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Dear Carl,
>Scroll down to 1983
>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>Cheers,
>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

Quoted message said:

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

Quoted message said:

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Quoted message said:

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

Quoted message said:

More searching yields this:

Quoted message said:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

Quoted message said:

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

Quoted message said:

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

Quoted message said:

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

Quoted message said:

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Quoted message said:

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

Quoted message said:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1...

Quoted message said:

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Quoted message said:

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

Quoted message said:

The Peugeot eludes me.

Quoted message said:

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=P...

CF- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some fellow recently wrote a letter to VeloNews (june 11 issue, I
think) claiming to have invented and sold something that sounds very
similar to this device. He said the name of it was "Digi-Tac" and
that he starting selling it in 1974. his letter was an attempt to
refute the VeloNews claim that the "Pacer 2000" was the first cycle
computer. Velonews printed his letter and even included a picture of
a "Digi-Tac" device mounted on a bike and also what appears to be some
sort of advertising flyer for the unit. The guy claims to have
developed this device as part of a mech. engineering course that he
was taking. Seems plausible enough to me. So, 1974 then?

Tom Nakashima said:

Today we take the cyclometer for granted, but I look at it as one of the
jewels of cycling technology. It would be interesting to see who built the
first LED cyclometer.
-tom

As opposed to LCD ? If not, I thought that was what we were already
discussing.

* * Chas said:

I have a prototype model 20 that I got from a friend who worked at Avocet
in the early 1980s. It came with several different pickups and bar mounts
plus an instruction sheet. I left the battery in too long and one of the
contacts got corroded. ;-(

Chas.

I believe I've confirmed mine to be a "20" also. Here's a photo that
matches: http://stevebarner.com/206Miles-s.jpg

I was sure it was previous to '83 that I bought it, but seeing as how
I can't remember back as far as Monday, my memory of the late 70's and
early 80's might be a little foggy.

Bill Sornson said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the
> riders
> newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold
> on the
> decent.
My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in
the Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Guess again. They're still doing it in 2006, as seen in the photo I
took at the Tour last year. Please ignore the items in the
advertisement; not trying to cause problems here, but I don't have
the original photo handy to link to. I'll try to change it tonight.

http://www.chainreaction.com/citysportsjuly2007.htm

SPAMMER!!! LOL (Don't change it; it's perfect as is.)

Since it's a Domina Vacanze rider, it would be even better if the quote
bubble were in Italian.

http://tinyurl.com/36vpx9

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,
Tom Ace <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The recent advance that has made a substantial difference for me
> has been hub gearing. Rohloff and Nexus hubs make hub gearing
> practical in more applications.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> You can say that hub gearing is nothing new, just an improvement--
> but the same is true about dating indexed shifting to the 1980s:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Jun 19, 5:30 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > 60s.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Indexed shifting was made for derailleur gearing before that, it

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> wasn't widespread nor perfected. The first derailleur-gear bike I
> owned was a Ross 5-speed with Shimano indexed shifting--around 1970.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could say that the advance is cut-down twisted cogs
that take the hysteresis out of shifting, thus making
indexed shifting practical.

Quoted message said:

Let's not forget the dual spring-loaded pivot, slant parallelogram RD,
introduced by Shimano but based on the prior art of both Simplex (dual
pivot) and Suntour (slant parallelogram).

Suntour patented their first slant parallelogram RD in 1964 - the
Grand-Prix model. They had a worldwide patent on the slant parallelogram
design for the next 20 years.

Yes, and when the patent expired, Shimano "flattered" Suntour in the
same way they had "flattered" Simplex years earlier. The result was
the first dual spring-loaded pivot, slant parallelogram RD, the Dura-
Ace RD-7400. Shimano also incorporated their own innovation, a
'floating' jockey pulley (aka, "Centeron Pulley"😉.

Diablo Scott said:

http://tinyurl.com/36vpx9

Man you have your cleat(s) set forward.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the
riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on
the
decent.

Quoted message said:

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in the
Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Guess again. They're still doing it in 2006, as seen in the photo I took at
the Tour last year. Please ignore the items in the advertisement; not trying
to cause problems here, but I don't have the original photo handy to link
to. I'll try to change it tonight.

http://www.chainreaction.com/citysportsjuly2007.htm

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

This year's Giro, third picture down:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2qz4uz

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
><[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

>>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>>>> than '83.

Quoted message said:

>>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

>>> Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

>>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

Quoted message said:

>>>http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

>>> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

>>Dear
>>> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

>>Dear Carl,
>>Scroll down to 1983
>>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>>Cheers,
>>-tom

Quoted message said:

>Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

>The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
>"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
>date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
>mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
>grain of nit-picking salt.

Quoted message said:

>I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
>claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

Quoted message said:

>That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
>raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
>commercial, that someone might dig up.

Quoted message said:

>And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
>who's confused, not Jim Langley.

Quoted message said:

>This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
>who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Quoted message said:

>Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

Quoted message said:

>"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
>interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
>treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
>in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
>them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
>Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
>Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
>Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
>statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
>1764."

Quoted message said:

>Cheers,

Quoted message said:

>Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

Quoted message said:

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

Quoted message said:

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Quoted message said:

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

Quoted message said:

More searching yields this:

Quoted message said:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

Quoted message said:

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

Quoted message said:

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

Quoted message said:

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

Quoted message said:

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Quoted message said:

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

Quoted message said:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1...

Quoted message said:

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Quoted message said:

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

Quoted message said:

The Peugeot eludes me.

Quoted message said:

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=P...

CF- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Some fellow recently wrote a letter to VeloNews (june 11 issue, I
think) claiming to have invented and sold something that sounds very
similar to this device. He said the name of it was "Digi-Tac" and
that he starting selling it in 1974. his letter was an attempt to
refute the VeloNews claim that the "Pacer 2000" was the first cycle
computer. Velonews printed his letter and even included a picture of
a "Digi-Tac" device mounted on a bike and also what appears to be some
sort of advertising flyer for the unit. The guy claims to have
developed this device as part of a mech. engineering course that he
was taking. Seems plausible enough to me. So, 1974 then?

Dear VF,

So far, I've found nothing about Digi-Tac on the internet, but the
VeloNews forum had this post:

"Switched from that [Huret mechanical odometer] to the Pacer 2000
which was as big as a small TV. Then the Avocet 20 came out and
revolutionized the market."

http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=2&i=219612&t=219600#reply_219612

I had a vague memory of huge sensor rings being mentioned on RBT, and
"pacer 2000" leads to it. Andrew Muzi has two pictures up at Yellow
Jersey, the upper photo being a Cateye CC-1000 and the lower photo
being a Veltec Pacer 2000:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/OLDCOMP.JPG

Here's Andrew's post, where he cheerfully explains the details to a
particularly clueless reader:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/06af8e152631243f

The Pacer 2000 is mentioned in US Patent 4636769 (which is for a later
bike computer):

"Pacer 2000: Advertisement on "Bicycling" Magazine of Jul. 1979, p.
2-VSCL"
patft.uspto.govnph ParserOpen ↗

Another patent, 4435983, mentions the same ad:

"Pacer 2000 Advertisement p. 2, Jul. 1979, Bicycling.. "
patft.uspto.govnph ParserOpen ↗

So the Pacer 2000 was advertised as far back as July, 1979.

US Patent 4456277 for a tricycle filed July 12, 1982 mentions the
Pacer 2000 and also the Entex bike computer (not mentioned previously
in this thread):

"To observe cycle operation and rider condition, I prefer to use a
monitor 18 having heart rate sensors on the handlebars and a magnetic
pickup on one of the wheels. Commercially available monitors include
the Pacer 2000 and the Entex bike computer."

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4456277.PN.&OS=PN/4456277&RS=PN/4456277

Aha! The Entex was available by 1981 and had accessories for cadence
and heart rate! Wonderful details here:

http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Entex/BikeComputer.htm

Entex seems to have been a company that made plastic models and
hand-held computer games up to 1980.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Since it's a Domina Vacanze rider, it would be even better if the quote
bubble were in Italian.

Agreed, that was my first thought when I looked at the photo. Still, the
paper was, indeed, French. Perhaps I should have captioned it to say
something like-

Giornale francese maledetto! Che cosa "une enorme vente des TREK Madone"
significa?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

David L. Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

David L. Johnson said:

I don't see the point of the screen, anyway. So, to see what gear you
are in, you look down to read a number. Can't you look down at the
friggin' cassette?

Well, you do have to look back slightly to see the cassette. Still,
despite an occasional quick check, you should know 99% of the time.

When I'm riding hard, trying to keep up with a fast (well, faster than
me) group, I am not thinking about what gear I am in, only in whether or
not I'd do better with a shift. I often don't know where on the
cassette I am, without taking a quick glance. But after however many
years of glancing down at my cassette/freewheel, I certainly don't need
a number display on the shifter. On a tandem, yes, but not on a single
bike.

I do appreciate the display on my trigger shifters on my Xtracycle. The
cargo bags obscure my view of the drivetrain pretty effectively. I have
bar-ends on the tandem, which help somewhat in that regard. I'm not as
used to them as the ones on my commuter, so I have to guess for the
first few minutes.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"Uncle Cosmo ... why do they call this a word processor?"
"It's simple, Skyler ... you've seen what food processors do to food,
right?"
-- MacNelley, "Shoe"

still me said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Today we take the cyclometer for granted, but I look at it as one of the
jewels of cycling technology. It would be interesting to see who built the
first LED cyclometer.
-tom

As opposed to LCD ? If not, I thought that was what we were already
discussing.

I doubt that any electronic kind would have been feasible before about
1972. My employer at the time bought a 4 function calculator that set
him back about $300, and those were real 1972 dollars. A friend bought
an LED watch in about 1975 and had to replace the batteries every month
because he was always showing it off and pressing the button to display
the time. Neat toy but not practical. My guess would be that cyclometers
would have trailed watches by at least a few years due to mass marketing
concerns. There were probably mechanical speedometers/odometers dating
back to the 30's, if not earlier, but I have never seen one.
Ebay is a good research site. If it exists, someone will probably be
trying to sell one.
Bill Baka

Bill said:

I doubt that any electronic kind would have been feasible before about
1972. My employer at the time bought a 4 function calculator that set
him back about $300, and those were real 1972 dollars. A friend bought
an LED watch in about 1975 and had to replace the batteries every month
because he was always showing it off and pressing the button to display
the time. Neat toy but not practical.

I remember one time, it must have been in the 70s, being in a theater
(balcony) and seeing all those LED displays in the expensive seats. I
guess they were checking the time, since the play (or whatever) was
late. Lots of red lights among the tuxedos and bald heads.

I also recall, vaguely, pre-1970 spedometers that actually had little
wheels turned by each revolution of the front wheel. Terribly
inaccurate and fininky in adjustment. No one used them that I knew. We
all guessed at how far/fast we had ridden, and I would bet we vastly
over-guessed both.

--

David L. Johnson

Enron's slogan: Respect, Communication, Integrity, and Excellence.

David L. Johnson said:

Bill said:

I doubt that any electronic kind would have been feasible before about
1972. My employer at the time bought a 4 function calculator that set
him back about $300, and those were real 1972 dollars. A friend bought
an LED watch in about 1975 and had to replace the batteries every
month because he was always showing it off and pressing the button to
display the time. Neat toy but not practical.

I remember one time, it must have been in the 70s, being in a theater
(balcony) and seeing all those LED displays in the expensive seats. I
guess they were checking the time, since the play (or whatever) was
late. Lots of red lights among the tuxedos and bald heads.

I also recall, vaguely, pre-1970 spedometers that actually had little
wheels turned by each revolution of the front wheel. Terribly
inaccurate and fininky in adjustment. No one used them that I knew. We
all guessed at how far/fast we had ridden, and I would bet we vastly
over-guessed both.

I think over-guessing is human nature. I only wish I had a speedometer
on my infamous tricycle ride in 1953-54.
On a more serious note, I bought a Casio LCD wristwatch in 1982 and it
is still my only real watch, even after 25 years, 5 batteries, and 4
wrist-bands worn out. I'll keep it another 25 years as long as it keeps
working, and is accurate to about 15 seconds a month, when I calibrate
it by way of WWV at 10 Mhz with my short-wave radio (18 tubes).
Some things just seem to last forever. I don't think a new Chinese watch
would go more than 2 or 3 years.
If it isn't broke, don't replace it.
Bill Baka

Bill said:

I don't think a new Chinese watch
would go more than 2 or 3 years.
If it isn't broke, don't replace it.

My Avocet 20 is still running, although I've changed the battery a
couple times. Since all I really care about is time and distance, it
still serves me well.

Quoth Carl Fogel"

Quoted message said:

Aha! "Avocet 20" leads to a pair of interesting snippets:

"The Avocet 20 cyclecomputer was the first to sell for less than $40.
Unfortunately, it was widely advertised, with a price of $24.95, for
almost two years before it was actually ready to ship. This
'vaporware' did great harm to the development of the cyclecomputer
market for a couple of years."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html

And whatever the model series meant, it must have been confusing,
since there was an Avocet 15:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecom_calibration_proc.html#avocet15

The numbers are not about chronology, they're about quality level,
higher numbers being better models (the opposite of Bridgestone
bikes!)

The 20 and 30 were U.S. made, with inductive pickups and ring magnets.

the 15 was a cheesy generic Asian unit, Hong Kong manufacture, if
memory serves, and used a magnet reed switch pickup like virtually all
non-Avocet units.

Appropos of nothing, "Avocet" it NOT a French word, despite
appearances, and the "t" at the end is distinctly pronounced. (It's
a kind of bird.)

It is very common for folks to mispronounce this as "Avo-SAY" due to
thinking it's French...sort of like the similar confusion over the
English word "pannier" (PAN-yer, not "pan-YAY."😉

Sheldon "Derailer" Brown
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
+-----------------------------------------+
| Man invented language to satisfy his |
| deep need to complain. -- Lily Tomlin |
+-----------------------------------------+
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

Aha! "Avocet 20" leads to a pair of interesting snippets:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The Avocet 20 cyclecomputer was the first to sell for less than $40.
Unfortunately, it was widely advertised, with a price of $24.95, for
almost two years before it was actually ready to ship. This
'vaporware' did great harm to the development of the cyclecomputer
market for a couple of years."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And whatever the model series meant, it must have been confusing,
since there was an Avocet 15:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecom_calibration_proc.html#avocet15

Quoted message said:

The numbers are not about chronology, they're about quality level,
higher numbers being better models (the opposite of Bridgestone
bikes!)

Quoted message said:

The 20 and 30 were U.S. made, with inductive pickups and ring magnets.

Quoted message said:

the 15 was a cheesy generic Asian unit, Hong Kong manufacture, if
memory serves, and used a magnet reed switch pickup like virtually all
non-Avocet units.

Quoted message said:

Apropos of nothing, "Avocet" it NOT a French word, despite
appearances, and the "t" at the end is distinctly pronounced. (It's
a kind of bird.)

http://tinyurl.com/29u7cc
http://birdphotography.com/
http://home.att.net/~larkbunting/amavcck.htm

I came up with that name because among my anual hand printed linoleum
cuts, I had one of an avocet in flight for 1973, which became the
original Logo. I realized things were coming apart when big money was
spent to replace the (free) logo with a (professional) one that cost a
lot, reducing the avocet to two curved lines. After that it was
mostly down hill. I insisted that my book retain the original logo.

Jobst Brandt

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Carl Fogel"

Quoted message said:

Aha! "Avocet 20" leads to a pair of interesting snippets:

"The Avocet 20 cyclecomputer was the first to sell for less than $40.
Unfortunately, it was widely advertised, with a price of $24.95, for
almost two years before it was actually ready to ship. This
'vaporware' did great harm to the development of the cyclecomputer
market for a couple of years."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html

And whatever the model series meant, it must have been confusing,
since there was an Avocet 15:

http://sheldonbrown.com/cyclecom_calibration_proc.html#avocet15

The numbers are not about chronology, they're about quality level,
higher numbers being better models (the opposite of Bridgestone
bikes!)

The 20 and 30 were U.S. made, with inductive pickups and ring magnets.

the 15 was a cheesy generic Asian unit, Hong Kong manufacture, if
memory serves, and used a magnet reed switch pickup like virtually all
non-Avocet units.

Appropos of nothing, "Avocet" it NOT a French word, despite
appearances, and the "t" at the end is distinctly pronounced. (It's
a kind of bird.)

It is very common for folks to mispronounce this as "Avo-SAY" due to
thinking it's French...sort of like the similar confusion over the
English word "pannier" (PAN-yer, not "pan-YAY."😉

Sheldon "Derailer" Brown
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
+-----------------------------------------+
| Man invented language to satisfy his |
| deep need to complain. -- Lily Tomlin |
+-----------------------------------------+
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

Apropos of Avocet, I've seen the American version up the Arkansas a
few times, but not since I began carrying a camera--see the BBS map,
not the CBC map:

http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i2250id.html

(Breeding bird survey and Christmas bird count--EA-'02-MS.)

My first thought was that an odd duck was landing on the river.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel