Yikes

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My first exposure to index shifting was on the 700c MTB I built in 1992. I
put on Shimano Deore XT shifters with a 7 speed Sachs freewheel. It was
such an improvement over the Suntour V derailleur and 5 speed FW on >

Interesting, because index shifting came out in 1985, so 7 years passed
before you were exposed to index shifting?
-tom

Jay Beattie said:

This is just road bike stuff. Mountain biking has made huge leaps in
the last 20 years -- but I am not qualified to talk about that since I
don't even own a mountain bike anymore. I'll get one again one day,
though. -- Jay Beattie.

The most obvious improvements have been in brakes and suspension. Even
10 years ago the most common suspension forks had a pretty severe weight
limit, were completely undampened, leaked oil, or all of the above. Disc
brakes are a boon on long or steep descents and in muddy conditions.
Indexed shifting on mountain bikes works really well, even front
indexing.

On the road side... last year I went from a 20 year old road bike to a
new one. The new one shifts *far* better in back, the indexing is much
easier to adjust, and I can get a useful amount of braking from the
hoods which I never could on the old bike. Thanks to 9 gears in back
and 3 in front I can run very wide-range gearing without giving up
reasonably close spacing. Thanks to handlebar-mounted shifters I can
shift while standing up, which is sometimes useful.

The advantages of the old bike? Better front shifting and the retro
look, if that's your thing.

That whimpering sound you hear comes from what's left of my once-broad
retro-grouch streak.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
genuine improvement?

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.
-tom

How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
than '83.

Callistus Valerius said:

Would discs also end the wheel shimmy debate?

No, they wouldn't. Most shimmies start with the brakes off.

--

David L. Johnson

Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.

still me said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

I do (indexing as well as brake-lever shifters), and I also consider
clipless pedals to be an improvement.

--

David L. Johnson

Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.

Ozark Bicycle said:

Well, the RD designs a big part of it all, too. Friction or index, the
double pivot, slant parallelogram designs are the best shifting RDs
ever made.

And I got my first one, a Suntour V I won in a race, in 1972.

--

David L. Johnson

Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.

Callistus Valerius said:

I cup my hand around the top of Shimano shifters so I won't be able to
see the LCD screen

I don't see the point of the screen, anyway. So, to see what gear you
are in, you look down to read a number. Can't you look down at the
friggin' cassette?

--

David L. Johnson

Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.

David L. Johnson said:

still me said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

I do (indexing as well as brake-lever shifters), and I also consider
clipless pedals to be an improvement.

Dear David,

"4/1895: Charles Hanson of Peace Dale, Rhode Island invents first
clipless pedal. (Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)"

"10/1895: Canadian Marmaduke Matthews invents first recessed-cleat,
dual-sided, spring-actuated clipless pedal."

"1897: Joseph Hanson patents a new type of floating clipless pedal.
(Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.history

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

David L. Johnson said:

I don't see the point of the screen, anyway. So, to see what gear you
are in, you look down to read a number. Can't you look down at the
friggin' cassette?

Well, you do have to look back slightly to see the cassette. Still,
despite an occasional quick check, you should know 99% of the time.
Makes slightly more sense than having a gear indicator on the dash in
a car.

Troll Report said:

Jobst Brandt said:

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are less
easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am not
about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Going up fast is
fine but the descent is to enjoy the view and take your time. Maybe one
day you'll understand.

Descending slowly is worse on brakes than descending fast. At high
speeds, most of the energy dissipation happens in the air, not the
brakes. At low speeds, most of the energy of the descent goes into
the brakes. That makes rims heat up and cause blowoffs, pad melting,
etc.

Chalo

"Tom Nakashima" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My first exposure to index shifting was on the 700c MTB I built in

1992. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

put on Shimano Deore XT shifters with a 7 speed Sachs freewheel. It

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

such an improvement over the Suntour V derailleur and 5 speed FW on >

Interesting, because index shifting came out in 1985, so 7 years passed
before you were exposed to index shifting?
-tom

There were a number of lapses in my cycling experience due to health
issues and work pressures. Mid 60s, 1970s, early 1980s, early 1990s and
the past year and a half.

Chas.

maybe I missed the point here but downhill is speed, more TS=D than
uphill
ergo! the deeper the rider goes into the downhill turn before braking,
the farther he travels toward the finish line, no?
this was always true - discs will bring the rider further into a turn
at speed before braking - but the interesting question is why now? or
why not before?
and how many does que pasa sell?

Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm said:

Paul Cassel said:

As to disk brakes, well, why not? Again, I'm unfamiliar with the pros
and cons of these on road bicycles, but they seem to work fine on off
road bikes.

Heavy, complicated, expensive requiring specific hubs/frames/
forks..all which cost more, weigh more...discs on MTBs, tandems, cross
bikes, tourers...great, Heavy package, riding in wet conditions,
conditions where wacking a wheel will be a show stopper..

Peter forgot to mention small wheel recumbent bicycles and recumbent
trikes. [1]

Quoted message said:

for your WE ride-dummmmm.

What is a "WE ride"?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have some sort of specific objections to these changes or is this
just the latest round of retro grouch talking?

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Easy access to Usenet cycling groups is less than two (2) decades
old. 😉

[1] It's a joke, son.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Someone said:

Quoted message said:

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are
less easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am
not about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Going up fast is fine but the descent is to enjoy the view and take
your time. Maybe one day you'll understand.

I suspect you have an old CPU. Riders with whom I have ridden, and
people who read my ride reports recognize that hurrying down mountain
roads only takes a small part ones concentration to manage and that
scenery is not lost to those who both descend fast and love the
landscape.

You might try:

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/

"Maybe one day you'll understand."

Jobst Brandt

still me said:

David L. Johnson said:

I don't see the point of the screen, anyway. So, to see what gear you
are in, you look down to read a number. Can't you look down at the
friggin' cassette?

Well, you do have to look back slightly to see the cassette. Still,
despite an occasional quick check, you should know 99% of the time.

When I'm riding hard, trying to keep up with a fast (well, faster than
me) group, I am not thinking about what gear I am in, only in whether or
not I'd do better with a shift. I often don't know where on the
cassette I am, without taking a quick glance. But after however many
years of glancing down at my cassette/freewheel, I certainly don't need
a number display on the shifter. On a tandem, yes, but not on a single
bike.

--

David L. Johnson

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
conclusion.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Jay Beattie said:

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

I do. Twenty years ago was SIS but not quite STI -- brake-lever
shifting came out in 1990, I think. So, in the last 20 years we have
STI, which I like a lot. Other arguable advancements in the last 20
years involve the commercialization of existing technology like
threadless headsets, improved hub and BB seals, step in pedal systems
(I think the original Look pedals were 1984 but took a while to really
hit the market), CF, dual pivot brakes ('90s sometime). I like the
feel of dual pivots better than Campy NR that I rode for many years,
and better than the disks I currently ride on my commuter.

Arguable improvements involve BCDs and compact drive. Increased number
of gears (although it has gotten kind of ridiculous with 10sp and tiny
chains). A lot of people like the supplied quick-links (I don't),
split-top saddles, etc. I think OC rims are great, but really only to
mitigate the problems created by high dish wheels.

You're forgetting lights! I like indexed shifting (and
brake lever shifting, although barends are fine) and
clipless pedals and cassette hubs. But at least for
commuting, I'd likely give that all up rather than give
up decent LED blinkies and rechargeable headlights.

Ben

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:36:06 -0400, "David L. Johnson"

Quoted message said:

"4/1895: Charles Hanson of Peace Dale, Rhode Island invents first
clipless pedal. (Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)"

Odd that it didn't catch on. Maybe the design was not as good as it may
seem. I remember a clipless pedal from my youth as well, made by
Cinelli. It was occasionally used by trackies, since it really, really
did hold you on the pedal. Nearly impossible to get out in time to prop
yourself up if you stop, so you better have the track wall to grab.

I also remember one guy who literally bolted his shoes onto his pedals.

But you can certainly date usable, safe clipless pedals to the
mid-to-late 80s. 1980s.

--

David L. Johnson

If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
conclusion.
-- George Bernard Shaw

On Jun 18, 5:30 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Jun 18, 8:14 am, still me <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
>See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
>that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Quoted message said:

I do. Twenty years ago was SIS but not quite STI -- brake-lever
shifting came out in 1990, I think. So, in the last 20 years we have
STI, which I like a lot. Other arguable advancements in the last 20
years involve the commercialization of existing technology like
threadless headsets, improved hub and BB seals, step in pedal systems
(I think the original Look pedals were 1984 but took a while to really
hit the market), CF, dual pivot brakes ('90s sometime). I like the
feel of dual pivots better than Campy NR that I rode for many years,
and better than the disks I currently ride on my commuter.

Quoted message said:

Arguable improvements involve BCDs and compact drive. Increased number
of gears (although it has gotten kind of ridiculous with 10sp and tiny
chains). A lot of people like the supplied quick-links (I don't),
split-top saddles, etc. I think OC rims are great, but really only to
mitigate the problems created by high dish wheels.

You're forgetting lights! I like indexed shifting (and
brake lever shifting, although barends are fine) and
clipless pedals and cassette hubs. But at least for
commuting, I'd likely give that all up rather than give
up decent LED blinkies and rechargeable headlights.

Too true. I spent $20+ in the '70s for a "Belt Beacon" which was a
strobe, about half the size of a Coke can, that flashed every now and
then. It was about half as good as the free-bee flashers given away by
the cops at neighborhood safety fairs. Adjusted for inflation, I paid
about $80 for a bad blinky. There were no bright lights that I can
recall. -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would electronic shifting improve the racing experience to a degree
that would make it worth the cost?

There's a great fear, within the managers of the major teams, that the
riders might revolt (as a few already have) and refuse to ride with
radios
in their ears, telling them what to do. It is for that reason that
electronic shifting, as well as other planned means to control the bike,
are
being created. Control of the functions can be over-ridden remotely by
the
team car, as required. In addition, the system can be hot-wired to
provide a
healthy jolt to the cyclist (in the event he doesn't follow orders). This
is
much easier to hide than the previously-worked-on system involving
remotely-activated needles that would come up through the saddle.

I thought the needles were for their 'dose', not to get their
attention...

During one of those few times I've had a chance to become bored, I wondered
if one could patent a saddle with a novocaine injection device. Instant cure
for sore butt.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA