Yikes

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:44:41 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

One or two years off, so what.
The main point is that Avocet was the pioneer of the cyclometer, as
Brandt pointed out the trademarked name.
Langley is usually pretty accurate on dates.
I did get to see his headtube badge collection, and his Penny Farthing.
-tom

Dear Tom,

Now I'm wondering who really was the pioneer and when--Avocet,
Peugeot, Cyclotronics, Multronic, or someone else?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>>>Avocet
>>>>back in '83.
>>>>-tom
>>>
>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was
>>> older
>>> than '83.
>>>
>>
>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>-tom
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."
>
> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>
> Cheers,

Dear
> Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

J. Brandt should have the correct date.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>back in '83.
>>>>-tom
>>>
>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>> than '83.
>>>
>>
>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>-tom
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."
>
> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>
> Cheers,

Dear
> Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4156190.PN.&OS=PN/4156190&RS=PN/4156190

CF

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>
><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>-tom
>>>>
>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>>> than '83.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>-tom
>>
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."
>>
>> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>
>Dear
>> Carl Fogel
>
>
>Dear Carl,
>Scroll down to 1983
>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>Cheers,
>-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4156190.PN.&OS=PN/4156190&RS=PN/4156190

CF

Oh, dear!

A very specific and earlier claim from yet a different company:

"Oct. 1981 Microcomputer-based cyclocomputer "CAT EYE VELO" was
developed and mass production commenced."

http://www.jbpi.or.jp/english/JBG/JBG2006-2007/data/018-021.pdf

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Barry said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the

riders

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold

on the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in

the Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

de France in the 1980s.

Dear Barry,

Bird cages have gone unlined even longer in the motorcycle world:

"A good tip if you are suffering from cold in Scotland* is to put a
newspaper inside your jacket. The rise in temperature will really
surprise you. The paper can be thrown away if it gets too warm for
you."

"Sammy Miller On Trials" p.54, 1969

* Meaning the Scottish Six Days Trial, which Miller first rode in
1954.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Make sure to remove the fish-n-chips first...

Chas.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>
><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>>>>Avocet
>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>-tom
>>>>
>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was
>>>> older
>>>> than '83.
>>>>
>>>
>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>-tom
>>
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."
>>
>> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>>
>> Cheers,
>
>Dear
>> Carl Fogel
>
>
>Dear Carl,
>Scroll down to 1983
>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>Cheers,
>-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4156190.PN.&OS=PN/4156190&RS=PN/4156190

CF

Ok, it wasn't 1985 or 1983, as I just called Avocet Tel. 650-470-0478.
As it turns out they're not too far away from me.
The correct year is 1984. I'll see if I can pick up a 1984 catalog when
I visit them this week. I have a 35 and a 45 to take down for repair.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:07:22 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
><[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>>>> than '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Dear
>>> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Dear Carl,
>>Scroll down to 1983
>>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>>Cheers,
>>-tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Dear Tom,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
>"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
>date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
>mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
>grain of nit-picking salt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
>claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
>raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
>commercial, that someone might dig up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
>who's confused, not Jim Langley.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
>who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
>interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
>treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
>in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
>them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
>Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
>Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
>Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
>statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
>1764."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

More searching yields this:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Peugeot eludes me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

Quoted message said:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=P...

Quoted message said:

CF

Oh, dear!

A very specific and earlier claim from yet a different company:

"Oct. 1981 Microcomputer-based cyclocomputer "CAT EYE VELO" was
developed and mass production commenced."

http://www.jbpi.or.jp/english/JBG/JBG2006-2007/data/018-021.pdf

Yep, IIRC, a friend had a Cateye in ~1982. It was pretty big, as was
the wheel mounted magnet (a ring, not a single spoke mounted device).

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>>>>>Avocet
>>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>>-tom
>>>>>
>>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have
>>>>> an
>>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was
>>>>> older
>>>>> than '83.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>>-tom
>>>
>>> Dear Tom,
>>>
>>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer
>>> 20."
>>>
>>> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>
>>Dear
>>> Carl Fogel
>>
>>
>>Dear Carl,
>>Scroll down to 1983
>>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>>Cheers,
>>-tom
>
>Dear Tom,
>
>The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
>"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
>date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
>mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
>grain of nit-picking salt.
>
>I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
>claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.
>
>That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
>raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
>commercial, that someone might dig up.
>
>And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
>who's confused, not Jim Langley.
>
>This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
>who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.
>
>Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:
>
>"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
>interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
>treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
>in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
>them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
>Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
>Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
>Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
>statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
>1764."
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4156190.PN.&OS=PN/4156190&RS=PN/4156190

CF

Oh, dear!

A very specific and earlier claim from yet a different company:

"Oct. 1981 Microcomputer-based cyclocomputer "CAT EYE VELO" was
developed and mass production commenced."

http://www.jbpi.or.jp/english/JBG/JBG2006-2007/data/018-021.pdf

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Report on Enigma decipherment 1 November 1939
http://www.turing.org.uk/sources/nov39.html
See #3 Cyclometer.
Cheers,
-tom

Ozark Bicycle said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:07:22 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>> "still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email hidden]...
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>>>>> back in '83.
>>>>>>> -tom
>>>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>>>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>>>>>> than '83.
>>>>> It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>>> -tom
>>>> Dear Tom,
>>>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."
>>>> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>>>> Cheers,
>>> Dear
>>>> Carl Fogel
>>> Dear Carl,
>>> Scroll down to 1983
>>> http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>>> Cheers,
>>> -tom
>> Dear Tom,
>> The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
>> "pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
>> date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
>> mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
>> grain of nit-picking salt.
>> I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
>> claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.
>> That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
>> raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
>> commercial, that someone might dig up.
>> And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
>> who's confused, not Jim Langley.
>> This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
>> who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.
>> Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:
>> "GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
>> interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
>> treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
>> in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
>> them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
>> Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
>> Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
>> Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
>> statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
>> 1764."
>> Cheers,
>> Carl Fogel
> Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
> anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
> of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":
> http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php
> That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
> available and that Avocet only made them smaller.
> Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
> the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
> "around the '70's."
> More searching yields this:
> MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
> Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated
> 664 a. Chains
> 664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
> 665 a-c. Components
> 665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
> 666 a-j Computers
> 666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
> Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
> - fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
> 666 k-n. Computer Sensors
> 666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
> Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.
> http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm
> This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
> earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
>from Palo Alto.
> But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
> possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.
> Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:
> http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1...
> So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
> things in 1985.
> Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
> magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:
> http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm
> The Peugeot eludes me.
> With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
> oddball cyclocomputers.
> Cheers,
> Carl Fogel
Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=P...
CF

Oh, dear!

A very specific and earlier claim from yet a different company:

"Oct. 1981 Microcomputer-based cyclocomputer "CAT EYE VELO" was
developed and mass production commenced."

http://www.jbpi.or.jp/english/JBG/JBG2006-2007/data/018-021.pdf

Yep, IIRC, a friend had a Cateye in ~1982. It was pretty big, as was
the wheel mounted magnet (a ring, not a single spoke mounted device).

I had one of those, can't find it at the moment, but it was definitely
earlier than 1983.

Mark J.

Quoted message said:

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Mine looks much older and more primitive. I will have to snap a photo
and get some info from them. My recollection is late 70's but is has
been a while since I bought it.

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

>>> I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>> Avocet back in '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I
>> have an Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure
>> it was older than '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer
20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html

The term Cyclometer was a trademarked name devised by Avocet for their
instrument for which I did the product design using features that I
had seen in HP-10 calculators.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Avocet may have trademarked "cyclometer," but the word was in common
use in bicycling books and magazines in the 1880's.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Tom Ace said:

The recent advance that has made a substantial difference for me
has been hub gearing. Rohloff and Nexus hubs make hub gearing
practical in more applications.

You can say that hub gearing is nothing new, just an improvement--
but the same is true about dating indexed shifting to the 1980s:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in the
80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the
60s.

Indexed shifting was made for derailleur gearing before that, it just
wasn't widespread nor perfected. The first derailleur-gear bike I
owned was a Ross 5-speed with Shimano indexed shifting--around 1970.

Could say that the advance is cut-down twisted cogs
that take the hysteresis out of shifting, thus making
indexed shifting practical.

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the
riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on
the
decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in the
Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Guess again. They're still doing it in 2006, as seen in the photo I took at
the Tour last year. Please ignore the items in the advertisement; not trying
to cause problems here, but I don't have the original photo handy to link
to. I'll try to change it tonight.

http://www.chainreaction.com/citysportsjuly2007.htm

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the
riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on
the
decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in the
Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Guess again. They're still doing it in 2006, as seen in the photo I took at
the Tour last year. Please ignore the items in the advertisement; not trying
to cause problems here, but I don't have the original photo handy to link
to. I'll try to change it tonight.

http://www.chainreaction.com/citysportsjuly2007.htm

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Dear Mike,

Now I know how the pros fight boredom, week after week--they scour the
ads for sales from local bike shops.

I like it! Please don't change it!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Tom Ace said:

The recent advance that has made a substantial difference for me
has been hub gearing. Rohloff and Nexus hubs make hub gearing
practical in more applications.

Quoted message said:

You can say that hub gearing is nothing new, just an improvement--
but the same is true about dating indexed shifting to the 1980s:

Quoted message said:

On Jun 19, 5:30 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in the
80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the
60s.

Quoted message said:

Indexed shifting was made for derailleur gearing before that, it just
wasn't widespread nor perfected. The first derailleur-gear bike I
owned was a Ross 5-speed with Shimano indexed shifting--around 1970.

Could say that the advance is cut-down twisted cogs
that take the hysteresis out of shifting, thus making
indexed shifting practical.

Let's not forget the dual spring-loaded pivot, slant parallelogram RD,
introduced by Shimano but based on the prior art of both Simplex (dual
pivot) and Suntour (slant parallelogram).

Quoted message said:

Dear Mike,

Now I know how the pros fight boredom, week after week--they scour the
ads for sales from local bike shops.

I like it! Please don't change it!

Carl: The ad won't change, but it would be inappropriate for a commercial
establishment (that would be me) appearing to advertise via this newsgroup.
I'll change the link so it shows the photo, with an option from there to see
the complete ad if one wishes.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoth Tom Nakashima:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
>genuine improvement?

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.

No, Avocet was not the first, by a long shot. CatEye had a couple of
models before them, and Rhode Gear ("Quantum"😉 and Hamilton-Eagle(?)
also preceded Avocet in the cyclecomputer market. I seem to recall at
least one of those featured LED. readouts, suitable LCD. displays not
yet being available.

For my money, the greatest advance in bicycle technology in the last
quarter century is the LED "blinky" tail light. These are an order of
magnitude more reliable than anything that came before, and they've
probably saved quite a few lives.

Sheldon "NEAMS" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| According to the latest official figures, |
| 43% of all statistics are totally worthless. |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Tom Nakashima:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
> >genuine improvement?

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.

No, Avocet was not the first, by a long shot. CatEye had a couple of
models before them, and Rhode Gear ("Quantum"😉 and Hamilton-Eagle(?)
also preceded Avocet in the cyclecomputer market. I seem to recall at
least one of those featured LED. readouts, suitable LCD. displays not
yet being available.

For my money, the greatest advance in bicycle technology in the last
quarter century is the LED "blinky" tail light. These are an order of
magnitude more reliable than anything that came before, and they've
probably saved quite a few lives.

Sheldon "NEAMS" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| According to the latest official figures, |
| 43% of all statistics are totally worthless. |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

Aaargh!

Er, I mean thanks . . .

I can't find anything about the Rhode Gear Quantum or the
Hamilton-Eagle.

If those guys aren't going to fill out the proper forms and file them,
it serves them right if they end up forgotten!

Elsewhere in this thread, I turned up an early Cateye claim:

"Oct. 1981 Microcomputer-based cyclocomputer "CAT EYE VELO" was
developed and mass production commenced."

http://www.jbpi.or.jp/english/JBG/JBG2006-2007/data/018-021.pdf

Cheers,

Carl "EA-'02-MS" Fogel

"Tom Nakashima" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:34:37 -0600, [email hidden] wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:48:32 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
><[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>><[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email hidden]...
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>>>>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>>>>>Avocet
>>>>>>back in '83.
>>>>>>-tom
>>>>>
>>>>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I

have an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was
>>>>> older
>>>>> than '83.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>>>>-tom
>>>
>>> Dear Tom,
>>>
>>> "AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer

20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>
>>> http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>
>>Dear
>>> Carl Fogel
>>
>>
>>Dear Carl,
>>Scroll down to 1983
>>http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
>>Cheers,
>>-tom
>
>Dear Tom,
>
>The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
>"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
>date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
>mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
>grain of nit-picking salt.
>
>I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a

specific

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.
>
>That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in

1985

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
>commercial, that someone might dig up.
>
>And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
>who's confused, not Jim Langley.
>
>This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as

anyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.
>
>Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:
>
>"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
>interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
>treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
>in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
>them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
>Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
>Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
>Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
>statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
>1764."
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

Quoted message said:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984

/Page+01.jpg.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Fumbling with the U.S. Patent office yields a 1977 filing and 1979
patent issue for an electronic bicycle speedometer that cleverly uses
the trigger of the bigger blink of the valve stem interrupting a light
beam:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4156190.PN.&OS=PN/4156190&RS=PN/4156190

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CF

Ok, it wasn't 1985 or 1983, as I just called Avocet Tel. 650-470-0478.
As it turns out they're not too far away from me.
The correct year is 1984. I'll see if I can pick up a 1984 catalog when
I visit them this week. I have a 35 and a 45 to take down for repair.
-tom

I have a prototype model 20 that I got from a friend who worked at Avocet
in the early 1980s. It came with several different pickups and bar mounts
plus an instruction sheet. I left the battery in too long and one of the
contacts got corroded. ;-(

Chas.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in the
80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the
60s.

Mauthauser and Kool Stop brake pads - they were an improvement over most
of the factory pads in the 1970s.

Chas.