Yikes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One advantage of disk brakes over rim calipers is that the rims don't
heat up on impressive descents, leading to potential clincher blow-off
and tubular glue-melt. RBT posters occasionally complain about both
disasters.

Another disk advantage is that the pads chew up the rotor, not the
rim, and the rotor is much higher above the gritty rain water, so
there's less damage. RBT posters occasionally complain about ruining
rims on a single rainy Alpine descent.

If I ever find myself negotiating hairpins on impressive alpine descents
in pouring rain, I will deserve to break my neck regardless of what sort
of brakes I have :-)

It doesn't always happen by choice. I've learned that freakish weather can
hit with little warning any time you're above 8500ft (on Sonora Pass,
twice). And sometimes a bit lower (Mont Ventoux during the 2001 Etape
d'Tour, when one cyclist died of a heart attack and another apparently from
exposure when things went from 90F to 35F or so in fairly short order. The
majority of riders had no jackets, no tights. Bus load after bus load of
cyclists were being hauled down from near the summit. I was prepared for it,
and very ticked off that they shut down the road 4k from the summit.

But the point is that, even if you don't go looking for it, it may find you.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

I suspect you have an old CPU. Riders with whom I have ridden, and
people who read my ride reports recognize that hurrying down mountain
roads only takes a small part ones concentration to manage and that
scenery is not lost to those who both descend fast and love the
landscape.

But would that preclude stopping to admire the view once in a while?

I used to "descend fast and love the landscape" but now find it's nice to
stop in the middle of a wild descent and just take it all in.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

During one of those few times I've had a chance to become bored, I
wondered if one could patent a saddle with a novocaine injection
device. Instant cure for sore butt.

Yeahbutt... NUMB butt is almost as bad as sore butt! (At least if
it's..."all-encompassing".)

Bill "good scare early in riding daze" S.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One advantage of disk brakes over rim calipers is that the rims don't
heat up on impressive descents, leading to potential clincher

blow-off

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and tubular glue-melt. RBT posters occasionally complain about both
disasters.

Another disk advantage is that the pads chew up the rotor, not the
rim, and the rotor is much higher above the gritty rain water, so
there's less damage. RBT posters occasionally complain about ruining
rims on a single rainy Alpine descent.

If I ever find myself negotiating hairpins on impressive alpine

descents

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in pouring rain, I will deserve to break my neck regardless of what

sort

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of brakes I have :-)

It doesn't always happen by choice. I've learned that freakish weather

can

Quoted message said:

hit with little warning any time you're above 8500ft (on Sonora Pass,
twice). And sometimes a bit lower (Mont Ventoux during the 2001 Etape
d'Tour, when one cyclist died of a heart attack and another apparently

from

Quoted message said:

exposure when things went from 90F to 35F or so in fairly short order.

The

Quoted message said:

majority of riders had no jackets, no tights. Bus load after bus load of
cyclists were being hauled down from near the summit. I was prepared for

it,

Quoted message said:

and very ticked off that they shut down the road 4k from the summit.

But the point is that, even if you don't go looking for it, it may find

you.

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on the
decent.

I used to ride the Iron Horse Race from Durango to Silverton, CO every
Memorial Day. We used to run into snow flurries going over the two
~11,000' passes most years.

Chas.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:36:06 -0400, "David L. Johnson"

Quoted message said:

"4/1895: Charles Hanson of Peace Dale, Rhode Island invents first
clipless pedal. (Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)"

Odd that it didn't catch on. Maybe the design was not as good as it may
seem. I remember a clipless pedal from my youth as well, made by
Cinelli. It was occasionally used by trackies, since it really, really
did hold you on the pedal. Nearly impossible to get out in time to prop
yourself up if you stop, so you better have the track wall to grab.

I also remember one guy who literally bolted his shoes onto his pedals.

But you can certainly date usable, safe clipless pedals to the
mid-to-late 80s. 1980s.

David L. Johnson

We used to ride Cinelli track pedals on the road for long rides in NM
where the stops were far and few between. They were great for preventing
"hot foot".

Only locked in for long stretches of open road. Had to remember to unlock
them and pull straight back to get out of them. I fell over at a stop sign
at least once when I forgot to unlock them.

Chas.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jay Beattie said:

* * Chas said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
>that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

On Saturday I was on a retro ride and there were TWO 1949 vintage Bianchis
Paris-Robaix bikes with the Campy Paris-Robaix single rear shift levers
which were the precursors to the Campy Cambio Corsa shifters. They only
were only 4 speed bikes but the riders kept pace with everyone else.

To shift you have to pedal backwards while reaching back to the lever on
the seatstay.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/NITROBOBs-GARAGE/Bay-Area-vintage...

On Saturday I was riding on a crushed rock road up Mt. Bachelor on
23mm tires and was happy that I never had to loosen my death grip on
the bars to shift. Who knew they took the GD road out? Is that what
those barricades were for? I was turned back by some guy in a D-9 and
flatted twice trying to get back to my car. Meanwhile, back in PDX
the next day, I was getting my ass kicked by my still-racing riding
buddy and was happy to be able to shift out of the saddle while
sprinting up hill. I mean people can have their retro bikes, but I
prefer convenience to historical reenactment -- unless I am riding in
a parade.

I ride an old black classic steel DT shifter `stealth'
bike around town for errands; not scruffy, not obvious.
While I was stopped at a traffic light a young guy
crossing looked and said "Nice bike."

--
Michael Press

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on the
decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in the Tour
de France in the 1980s.

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in the
80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the
60s.

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:34:48 -0700, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
genuine improvement?

I as looking at it the other way around - there hasn't been much
improvement beyond the point we reached 30 years ago.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I do consider indexed shifting (and especially the RDs, chains
and cogs that made it possible) a gennuine improvement.

I'll agree with you on cogs and chains, the indexing itself being a
much argued point!

Click shifting brought the masses back to bicycles, on MTBs..no
denying that. That happened in the mid 80s. I wouldn't have on my bike
but it did encourage many to buy a bike.

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.
-tom

How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
than '83.

It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
-tom

The recent advance that has made a substantial difference for me
has been hub gearing. Rohloff and Nexus hubs make hub gearing
practical in more applications.

You can say that hub gearing is nothing new, just an improvement--
but the same is true about dating indexed shifting to the 1980s:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Clipless pedals, index shifting, front suspension for MTBs-all in the
80s...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the
60s.

Indexed shifting was made for derailleur gearing before that, it just
wasn't widespread nor perfected. The first derailleur-gear bike I
owned was a Ross 5-speed with Shimano indexed shifting--around 1970.

Tom Ace

Quoted message said:

On Jun 19, 5:30 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]> wrote:
...nothing really in the 1970s that was vastly different than the 60s.

The 70's was the introduction to different materials to frame building.
Teledyne with titanium, Exxon Graftek with Carbon, and Gary Klein
with an Aluminum frame.

One other item that was forgotten, is the Bell Biker Helmet 1975.
Followed by the Bell V1 Pro helmet 1983. Bell was the official supplier to
the US Cycling team with the V1 Pro. Bell also produced their one-millionth
bike helmet in 1985.
-tom

Barry said:

Quoted message said:

Spectators at the summit of the old European races used to hand the riders
newspapers to put inside their jerseys for protection from the cold on the
decent.

My memory could be faulty, but I think they were still doing this in the Tour
de France in the 1980s.

Dear Barry,

Bird cages have gone unlined even longer in the motorcycle world:

"A good tip if you are suffering from cold in Scotland* is to put a
newspaper inside your jacket. The rise in temperature will really
surprise you. The paper can be thrown away if it gets too warm for
you."

"Sammy Miller On Trials" p.54, 1969

* Meaning the Scottish Six Days Trial, which Miller first rode in
1954.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tom Nakashima said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
back in '83.
-tom

How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
than '83.

It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
-tom

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>back in '83.
>-tom

How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
than '83.

It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
-tom

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Dear

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>> Avocet back in '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I
> have an Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure
> it was older than '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer
20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html

The term Cyclometer was a trademarked name devised by Avocet for their
instrument for which I did the product design using features that I
had seen in HP-10 calculators.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

Quoted message said:

>>> I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>> Avocet back in '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I
>> have an Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure
>> it was older than '83.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer
20."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Quoted message said:

Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html

The term Cyclometer was a trademarked name devised by Avocet for their
instrument for which I did the product design using features that I
had seen in HP-10 calculators.

Jobst Brandt

I remember Avocet not only put out cyclometers, they also had a component
line as well. Cranks, brakesets, hubs, seatpost, stems, headsets as I
recall. I felt the components were as good as Campagnolo. So how did
Avocet get
their name? Also, what ended their production?
-tom

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>>
>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>back in '83.
>>-tom
>
> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
> than '83.
>

It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
-tom

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Dear

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by
>>>Avocet
>>>back in '83.
>>>-tom
>>
>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>> than '83.
>>
>
>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>-tom

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Dear

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

One or two years off, so what.
The main point is that Avocet was the pioneer of the cyclometer, as
Brandt pointed out the trademarked name.
Langley is usually pretty accurate on dates.
I did get to see his headtube badge collection, and his Penny Farthing.
-tom

Quoted message said:

Tom Nakashima said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 06:39:27 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:51:47 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I'll have to say the electronic cyclometer, which was started by Avocet
>>>back in '83.
>>>-tom
>>
>> How crude a device do you attach to the word "cyclometer"? I have an
>> Avocet that does speed, mph, ride distance and I was sure it was older
>> than '83.
>>
>
>It could be you have a prototype from Palo Alto Bicycles?
>-tom

Dear Tom,

"AVOCET pioneered bicycle electronics in 1985 with the Cyclometer 20."

http://www.avocet.com/cyclopages/cyclo.html

Cheers,

Dear

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl,
Scroll down to 1983
http://www.jimlangley.net/ride/bicyclehistorywh.html
Cheers,
-tom

Dear Tom,

The disagreement between the 1985 date given by Avocet for when it
"pioneered bicycle electronics" with a specific model and the 1983
date given in Jim Langley's widely reproduced timeline with no model
mentioned is one reason why I take that enjoyable timeline with a
grain of nit-picking salt.

I don't know which date is right(er), but I tend to believe a specific
claim by the manufacturer over a snippet in a wide-ranging survey.

That said, the Avocet claim for the model 20 pioneering things in 1985
raises the possibility of an earlier model 10 prototype, possibly not
commercial, that someone might dig up.

And whoever scribbles the Avocet web site details could be the one
who's confused, not Jim Langley.

This kind of stuff causes the pedantic heart to beat faster, as anyone
who's quarreled over the dating of "The Tempest" knows.

Bierce cast his usual light on such matters:

"GNOME, n. In North-European mythology, a dwarfish imp inhabiting the
interior parts of the earth and having special custody of mineral
treasures. Bjorsen, who died in 1765, says gnomes were common enough
in the southern parts of Sweden in his boyhood, and he frequently saw
them scampering on the hills in the evening twilight. Ludwig
Binkerhoof saw three as recently as 1792, in the Black Forest, and
Sneddeker avers that in 1803 they drove a party of miners out of a
Silesian mine. Basing our computations upon data supplied by these
statements, we find that the gnomes were probably extinct as early as
1764."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Googling for avocet + cyclocomputer + 1983 doesn't turn up
anything useful, but avocet + cyclcomputer + 1984 turns up a mention
of an Avocet C-10 "that came out around 1984":

http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EF1E2CD.php

That thread also includes a claim that electronic stuff was already
available and that Avocet only made them smaller.

Both claims are off-the-top-of-someone's-head. It's worth noting that
the thread opens with someone remembering Avocet making cyclocomputers
"around the '70's."

More searching yields this:

MSS.328/C/12/4/448, 664-678 Historic photographs arranged by subject:
Technical: Trade Pictures 1984-1988, undated

664 a. Chains
664 a. Drawing of chain construction.
665 a-c. Components
665 a-c. Weinmann components - 2 brake levers and displays.
666 a-j Computers
666 a. Peugeot KSC-1. b. Avocet. c. Peugeot KSC-2. d. Cyclotronic. e.
Heret Multronic and magnet. f. Cateye Solar. g. Cisiomaster. h. ditto
- fork fitting. i. Catevemate. j. Avocet.
666 k-n. Computer Sensors
666 k. Cyclotronic large sensor - multi pole magnet. l. Handlebar
Ciciomaster. m. Typical standard sensor. n. Avocet.

http://www.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/ead/328c.htm

This puts Avocet somewhere in 1984-1988, but it could still be
earlier, particularly since it took a while for stuff to reach England
from Palo Alto.

But it also raises Peugeot, Cyclotronic, and Multronic and others as
possible rivals for the earliest cyclocomputer.

Here's a 1984 brochure for the Sachs/Huret Multronic:

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/broderir/Catalogs-Posters/Huret/1984/Page+01.jpg.html

So cyclocomputers clearly pre-date the Avocet site claim of pioneering
things in 1985.

Here's a no-date picture of a Cyclotronic, just because the huge
magnet ring can be mistaken for a disk brake:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/boeding.htm

The Peugeot eludes me.

With luck, these details may stir some memories and links to old,
oddball cyclocomputers.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel