Yikes

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

healthy jolt to the cyclist (in the event he doesn't follow orders). This is
much easier to hide than the previously-worked-on system involving
remotely-activated needles that would come up through the saddle.

Saddle needles were actually developed to deliver top-up doses of
various drugs.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Quoted message said:

One advantage of disk brakes over rim calipers is that the rims don't
heat up on impressive descents, leading to potential clincher blow-off
and tubular glue-melt. RBT posters occasionally complain about both
disasters.

Another disk advantage is that the pads chew up the rotor, not the
rim, and the rotor is much higher above the gritty rain water, so
there's less damage. RBT posters occasionally complain about ruining
rims on a single rainy Alpine descent.

If I ever find myself negotiating hairpins on impressive alpine descents
in pouring rain, I will deserve to break my neck regardless of what sort
of brakes I have :-)

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Would electronic shifting improve the racing experience to a degree
that would make it worth the cost?

There's a great fear, within the managers of the major teams, that the
riders might revolt (as a few already have) and refuse to ride with radios
in their ears, telling them what to do. It is for that reason that
electronic shifting, as well as other planned means to control the bike, are
being created. Control of the functions can be over-ridden remotely by the
team car, as required. In addition, the system can be hot-wired to provide a
healthy jolt to the cyclist (in the event he doesn't follow orders). This is
much easier to hide than the previously-worked-on system involving
remotely-activated needles that would come up through the saddle.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike,
Cyclists would just not enter any events and cycling as we know it
(drugs, EPO, etc.) would disappear.
Bill Baka
Oh, yeah, I should laugh at the obvious dig.

Michael Warner said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the tubeless tire coming, but disk brakes could if the
industry got together on disk dimensions. Of course that would
take a bit of convincing to the weight conscious who spend
inordinate sums of money on saving a few grams.

Quoted message said:

I can easily lock up the wheels on my road bike with its rim brakes.
What would be the point of having even stronger ones?

That sounds like the folks who said they didn't need disks on their
cars because they could already lock up their wheels with drums. It's
about control and linearity, and not blowing tires off the rim on
steep descents.

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are less
easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am not
about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Michael Warner said:

Quoted message said:

I don't see the tubeless tire coming, but disk brakes could if the
industry got together on disk dimensions. Of course that would
take a bit of convincing to the weight conscious who spend
inordinate sums of money on saving a few grams.

Quoted message said:

I can easily lock up the wheels on my road bike with its rim brakes.
What would be the point of having even stronger ones?

That sounds like the folks who said they didn't need disks on their
cars because they could already lock up their wheels with drums. It's
about control and linearity, and not blowing tires off the rim on
steep descents.

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are less
easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am not
about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

No offense, but you sound like a full on friggin' [censored]. Going up fast is
fine but the descent is to enjoy the view and take your time. Maybe one
day you'll understand.

Troll Report said:

Jobst Brandt said:

Michael Warner writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't see the tubeless tire coming, but disk brakes could if the
> industry got together on disk dimensions. Of course that would
> take a bit of convincing to the weight conscious who spend
> inordinate sums of money on saving a few grams.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can easily lock up the wheels on my road bike with its rim brakes.
What would be the point of having even stronger ones?

Quoted message said:

That sounds like the folks who said they didn't need disks on their
cars because they could already lock up their wheels with drums. It's
about control and linearity, and not blowing tires off the rim on
steep descents.

Quoted message said:

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are less
easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am not
about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt

No offense, but you sound like a full on friggin' [censored]. Going up fast is
fine but the descent is to enjoy the view and take your time. Maybe one
day you'll understand.

Well, Jobst has only been riding bicycles for about 70 years or so, so
his preferences may not yet be fully developed. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Jun 17, 9:54 am, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:> This-

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2007/features/dauphine_li...

Quoted message said:

plus tubeless road tires and road bikes with disc brakes...When
trekspecializedgiant makes them mainstream, I quit the bike biz....

I like the idea of tubeless tires if they work well. They're a boon on
motorcycles. Once we had to struggle with tire removal / replacement
when we had a flat. Now we just plug, inflate and ride home with plenty
of safety margin until we can replace the tire.

Motorcycles weigh 50 times as much and travel 2-3 times as fast.
Tubeless on MTBs for less pressure, no pinch flats..it does nuthin on
a road bike but make the tires and rims unique.

Quoted message said:

As to disk brakes, well, why not? Again, I'm unfamiliar with the pros
and cons of these on road bicycles, but they seem to work fine on off
road bikes.

Heavy, complicated, expensive requiring specific hubs/frames/
forks..all which cost more, weigh more...discs on MTBs, tandems, cross
bikes, tourers...great, Heavy package, riding in wet conditions,
conditions where wacking a wheel will be a show stopper..for your WE
ride-dummmmm.

Quoted message said:

Do you have some sort of specific objections to these changes or is this
just the latest round of retro grouch talking?

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Would electronic shifting improve the racing experience to a degree
that would make it worth the cost?

There's a great fear, within the managers of the major teams, that the
riders might revolt (as a few already have) and refuse to ride with radios
in their ears, telling them what to do. It is for that reason that
electronic shifting, as well as other planned means to control the bike, are
being created. Control of the functions can be over-ridden remotely by the
team car, as required. In addition, the system can be hot-wired to provide a
healthy jolt to the cyclist (in the event he doesn't follow orders). This is
much easier to hide than the previously-worked-on system involving
remotely-activated needles that would come up through the saddle.

I thought the needles were for their 'dose', not to get their
attention...

Quoted message said:

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Quoted message said:

That sounds like the folks who said they didn't need disks on their
cars because they could already lock up their wheels with drums. It's
about control and linearity, and not blowing tires off the rim on
steep descents.

When cornering hard on a fast descent, fine doses of braking are less
easily administered than with a disk. On the other hand, I am not
about to consider disks for my bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

----------
Would discs also end the wheel shimmy debate? I've always thought rim
brakes usually initiate the shimmy, with a bike that's prone to do it. They
sure would come in handy if you mis-judge a turn and going off a cliff is
the punishment.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Would electronic shifting improve the racing experience to a degree
that would make it worth the cost?

Quoted message said:

There's a great fear, within the managers of the major teams, that the
riders might revolt (as a few already have) and refuse to ride with radios
in their ears, telling them what to do. It is for that reason that
electronic shifting, as well as other planned means to control the bike, are
being created. Control of the functions can be over-ridden remotely by the
team car, as required. In addition, the system can be hot-wired to provide a
healthy jolt to the cyclist (in the event he doesn't follow orders). This is
much easier to hide than the previously-worked-on system involving
remotely-activated needles that would come up through the saddle.

I thought the needles were for their 'dose', not to get their
attention...

Left cheek for "the juice", right cheek for "behavior control". ;-)

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
genuine improvement?

FWIW, I do consider indexed shifting (and especially the RDs, chains
and cogs that made it possible) a gennuine improvement.

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

I do. Twenty years ago was SIS but not quite STI -- brake-lever
shifting came out in 1990, I think. So, in the last 20 years we have
STI, which I like a lot. Other arguable advancements in the last 20
years involve the commercialization of existing technology like
threadless headsets, improved hub and BB seals, step in pedal systems
(I think the original Look pedals were 1984 but took a while to really
hit the market), CF, dual pivot brakes ('90s sometime). I like the
feel of dual pivots better than Campy NR that I rode for many years,
and better than the disks I currently ride on my commuter.

Arguable improvements involve BCDs and compact drive. Increased number
of gears (although it has gotten kind of ridiculous with 10sp and tiny
chains). A lot of people like the supplied quick-links (I don't),
split-top saddles, etc. I think OC rims are great, but really only to
mitigate the problems created by high dish wheels.

This is just road bike stuff. Mountain biking has made huge leaps in
the last 20 years -- but I am not qualified to talk about that since I
don't even own a mountain bike anymore. I'll get one again one day,
though. -- Jay Beattie.

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

On Saturday I was on a retro ride and there were TWO 1949 vintage Bianchis
Paris-Robaix bikes with the Campy Paris-Robaix single rear shift levers
which were the precursors to the Campy Cambio Corsa shifters. They only
were only 4 speed bikes but the riders kept pace with everyone else.

To shift you have to pedal backwards while reaching back to the lever on
the seatstay.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/NITROBOBs-GARAGE/Bay-Area-vintage-rides/June+16th/

Chas.

Ozark Bicycle said:

So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
genuine improvement?

I as looking at it the other way around - there hasn't been much
improvement beyond the point we reached 30 years ago.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I do consider indexed shifting (and especially the RDs, chains
and cogs that made it possible) a gennuine improvement.

I'll agree with you on cogs and chains, the indexing itself being a
much argued point!

On Jun 18, 11:44 am, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snipped>

- on "progress" in bicycle function -

Quoted message said:

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

There's more control friction shifting??? Remember: indexing does not
necessarily imply STI/Rapidfire/Ergo, etc.

still me said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:34:48 -0700, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

So, what was introduced "three decades" ago that you consider a
genuine improvement?

I as looking at it the other way around - there hasn't been much
improvement beyond the point we reached 30 years ago.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I do consider indexed shifting (and especially the RDs, chains
and cogs that made it possible) a gennuine improvement.

I'll agree with you on cogs and chains,

Well, the RD designs a big part of it all, too. Friction or index, the
double pivot, slant parallelogram designs are the best shifting RDs
ever made.

Quoted message said:

the indexing itself being a
much argued point!

If you wanna waste yer time fiddling with friction (rear) shifting, be
my guest!

* * Chas said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle stuff
that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement :-)

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

On Saturday I was on a retro ride and there were TWO 1949 vintage Bianchis
Paris-Robaix bikes with the Campy Paris-Robaix single rear shift levers
which were the precursors to the Campy Cambio Corsa shifters. They only
were only 4 speed bikes but the riders kept pace with everyone else.

To shift you have to pedal backwards while reaching back to the lever on
the seatstay.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/NITROBOBs-GARAGE/Bay-Area-vintage...

Chas.

On Saturday I was riding on a crushed rock road up Mt. Bachelor on
23mm tires and was happy that I never had to loosen my death grip on
the bars to shift. Who knew they took the GD road out? Is that what
those barricades were for? I was turned back by some guy in a D-9 and
flatted twice trying to get back to my car. Meanwhile, back in PDX
the next day, I was getting my ass kicked by my still-racing riding
buddy and was happy to be able to shift out of the saddle while
sprinting up hill. I mean people can have their retro bikes, but I
prefer convenience to historical reenactment -- unless I am riding in
a parade. -- Jay Beattie.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle

stuff

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement

:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

On Saturday I was on a retro ride and there were TWO 1949 vintage

Bianchis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Paris-Robaix bikes with the Campy Paris-Robaix single rear shift

levers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which were the precursors to the Campy Cambio Corsa shifters. They

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were only 4 speed bikes but the riders kept pace with everyone else.

To shift you have to pedal backwards while reaching back to the lever

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the seatstay.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/NITROBOBs-GARAGE/Bay-Area-vintage...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chas.

On Saturday I was riding on a crushed rock road up Mt. Bachelor on
23mm tires and was happy that I never had to loosen my death grip on
the bars to shift. Who knew they took the GD road out? Is that what
those barricades were for? I was turned back by some guy in a D-9 and
flatted twice trying to get back to my car. Meanwhile, back in PDX
the next day, I was getting my ass kicked by my still-racing riding
buddy and was happy to be able to shift out of the saddle while
sprinting up hill. I mean people can have their retro bikes, but I
prefer convenience to historical reenactment -- unless I am riding in
a parade. -- Jay Beattie.

I'm going to be up in Bend next month. It's too bad that it's such a
hassle to travel with a bike these days. If I can find a nice retro in
Portland or Eugene maybe I can get some riding in.

My first exposure to index shifting was on the 700c MTB I built in 1992. I
put on Shimano Deore XT shifters with a 7 speed Sachs freewheel. It was
such an improvement over the Suntour V derailleur and 5 speed FW on my
previous MTB that I built in 1976. I have the same Shimano setup but with
a 7 speed freehub on another MTB with 26" wheels. What I like best is
shifting under load.

I have 2 road bikes with index shifting and I find that I can shift just
about as well with friction shifters. The chains and rear cogs make up
most of the improvements. I'm even running an 8 speed freehub friction
shifting with a Simplex SLJ RD. It works fine for me. I would definitely
go to index shifting with a 9 or 10 speed road bike.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

"still me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:55:19 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
> <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >See above..there hasn't been any genuine improvement on bicycle

stuff

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >that makes riding better for over 2 decades...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Three decades, unless you consider indexed shifting an improvement

:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Real cyclists know how to friction shift - and enjoy the control.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Saturday I was on a retro ride and there were TWO 1949 vintage

Bianchis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Paris-Robaix bikes with the Campy Paris-Robaix single rear shift

levers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

which were the precursors to the Campy Cambio Corsa shifters. They

only

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were only 4 speed bikes but the riders kept pace with everyone else.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To shift you have to pedal backwards while reaching back to the lever

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the seatstay.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/NITROBOBs-GARAGE/Bay-Area-vintage...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chas.

Quoted message said:

On Saturday I was riding on a crushed rock road up Mt. Bachelor on
23mm tires and was happy that I never had to loosen my death grip on
the bars to shift. Who knew they took the GD road out? Is that what
those barricades were for? I was turned back by some guy in a D-9 and
flatted twice trying to get back to my car. Meanwhile, back in PDX
the next day, I was getting my ass kicked by my still-racing riding
buddy and was happy to be able to shift out of the saddle while
sprinting up hill. I mean people can have their retro bikes, but I
prefer convenience to historical reenactment -- unless I am riding in
a parade. -- Jay Beattie.

I'm going to be up in Bend next month. It's too bad that it's such a
hassle to travel with a bike these days. If I can find a nice retro in
Portland or Eugene maybe I can get some riding in.

There are a bunch of bicycle rental places in Sun River, but check
first to see if they rent anything other than resort beach cruisers.
Bend has a bunch of good bike shops, too, and it is the home of a
couple American pros like Chris Horner. Susan at Sunnyside Bicycles
could probably line you up with something. See http://www.sunnysidesports.com/index.htm
.. Tell her I sent you. She will run screaming from the shop, but
after she calms down, you can bet she will find you something nice to
ride (they have a regular stock of rental MTBs but road bikes are ad
hoc).

FOGEL ALERT: Check out the Evel Knievel AMC Road Master featured on
the Sunnyside website.