What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting)

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 18:46 +0100:
>>
>> SMIDSY is almost always just an excuse. If there was a two ton steel
>> statue of a cyclist painted black and bolted to the road, no car would
>> hit it. Things that might kill them are very easy for drivers to see.
>
> Do you want to reconsider that statement? They frequently manage to hit
> gert big trees that have been growing alongside the road since before
> they learnt to drive so I can't imagine a statue on the road faring
> better.

No, I don't. They don't 'frequently' manage to hit gert big trees; they
remarkably rarely hit them, and always, I think. as a result of having
lost control. I don't think drivers ever look at a tree and think 'oh,
that isn't dangerous, it doesn't much matter if I pass it too close'.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.

 

[ship]

[email protected] wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 02:39:45 -0700, "ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur
> >> waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about
> >> just getting wet.
> >
> >Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they
> >have to TRAIN in the wet?
> >
> >I mean if you're actually *racing* who give a sh*t about being a tad
> >wet!
> >Speed, tactics etc occupy the mind...
> >
> >But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont
> >actually
> >*have* to ?
> >
> >( - Would any pros or hardcore semi-pros care to comment...?)
> >
> >
> >Ship
> >Shiperton Henethe
>
> Dear Ship,
>
> It's claimed that the quick-release was invented because Tullio
> Campagnolo was so frustrated when he tried to change his flip-flop
> wheel on a snowy pass:
>
> http://www.campyonly.com/history.html
>
> Page down once for a picture of Tullio in short sleeves in the snow.
>
> In the 2001 Tour de France, the undemanding stage 8 from Colmar was a
> bit damp and chilly.
>
> The last 161 riders, including Armstrong, finished 35:24 behind 14
> riders who decided not to take it easy. Apart from glory, the 14
> no-name riders longed for hot showers and wanted to get out of the
> near-freezing rain.
>
> Here's Tyler Hamilton's comment:
>
> "It doesn't take much for a guy like me to get really cold on a day
> like today. Even though I was wearing multiple layers of clothing
> there isn't much you can do when you're soaked to the bone. Especially
> when there's no end to the cats and dogs pouring down on you. Luckily
> there weren't any huge descents. When you're as cold I was today, a
> down hill section can really do you in. I've been so cold before that
> my hands were too numb to change gears. And after a stage like we just
> endured, you can also look forward to duking it out with your roommate
> for rights to the bath tub. That is if you're lucky enough to have one
> in your room. A lot of European hotels only have shower stalls."
>
> Tyler finished 64th that day, 35:24 behind, just like Armstrong in
> 51st place:
>
> http://www.velonews.com/race/tour2001/articles/1163.r.html
>
> Since over 90% of the field finished 35:24 behind the stage winner,
> Tour de France officials had to invoke the rule that says anyone who
> finishes that far behind is eliminated--
>
> Unless it makes the Tour look bad.

Conclusion:

Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged
lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down
big time.

==> I am not alone!


Ship

 

[ship]

Alex wrote:
> > So far I can't find ANYTHING on the market that is remotely
> > satisfactory.
>
> Been there, done that. I had a Gill jacket that was very waterproof,
> but didn't breath enough for my liking. No waterproof fabric will
> breath enough by itself. What you need is a back vent as well as some
> pit vents or chest vents. Right now I am using the Louis Garneau
> Supersonic jacket that I got at the following location:
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...toreid=&pagename=Shop by Brand: Louis Garneau
>
> The goodthings are that it is waterproof. It has a rear vent and pit
> zips for extra ventilation. It also has a two way zipper. The hood is
> detachable. It has a large rear center pocket where you can stow the
> hood. It has a drop tail. It has a mesh lining. Those are all the
> good things.
> I wish that it was made of a lighter material as it gets too hot in
> temps over 55 or so. The hood really coud use a bigger bill on it. As
> is, the bill is so small as to be useless. It doesn't fold very
> compactly. I haven't found a better jacket yet, so I will stick with
> this one for now.

- How soft & compressible is it?
- Do they make one in Yellow or Orange?
(Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night
according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become
invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes
respond
slowest!)
- It looks a bit baggy - does it flap?

- I wonder if you can buy them in the UK

- I couldnt find on the manufacturers site
http://www.louisgarneau.com/eng/query.asp?qu=Supersonic


Ship
Shiperton Henethe

 

[ship]

Jan Lindström wrote:
> ship wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in
> > UK)
> >
> > I am looking for something that is:
> >
> > b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE
> > a) Bright in colour /reflective at night
> > c) ultra-Compact
> > d) nearly(+) waterproof
> > e) COOL
> >
> > Plus ideally:
> > f) aerodyamic/elastic??
> > g) fairly durable?
> >
> > Budget: upto GBP 300.
> >
>
> Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
> (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are
> available with or without a hood.

Sadly the do NOT appear to come in any bright colours
that would be visible at night. (See my previous comment about red
not working at night).

And that's a deal-breaker.


Ship

 

[Peter Cole]

Jan Lindström wrote:
> ship wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in
>> UK)
>>
>
> Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
> (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are
> available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield
> jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in
> Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the
> powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough.

I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size
(6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have
been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but
didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand
recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences
with Powershield?

 

[Peter Clinch]

Peter Cole wrote:

> I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size
> (6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have
> been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but
> didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand
> recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences
> with Powershield?

It's very good IME. We have MEC salopettes/bibs made from it and we use
them for ski touring. I've been stood around in subzero conditions with
gale force winds doing nothing much and still been nice and warm, and
that's without any long johns on underneath. It also gives very good
freedom of movement from the intrinsic stretch and keeps out the worst
of showers pretty well too.

OTOH it certainly isn't the sort of thing I'd want on other than a cold day.

Another option would be Schoeller Dryskin, which isn't quite as thick or
warm or windproof as the Powershield but is similarly stretchy and
headed in the same direction for overall characteristics. Great stuff,
but not too many jackets in it :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[pinnah]

"ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Conclusion:
>
>Professionals dont enjoy getting wet (and cold) (for prolonged
>lengths of time) any more than anyone else AND it slows them down
>big time.

I think you have this backwards. Professionals don't perform well
when they cold. Hamilton's story is hypothermia 101. Body core gets
cold and everything else goes to pieces. These guys are operating
with less body fat insulation so they have thinner margins than most
of us but the basics remain the same.

I concluded 2 very different things from that story:

1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the
place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due
to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics.
High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among
mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to
increase the windproofness of the shell.

2) There is no way to stay dry in the rain under high excertion. None.
If you want to stay dry, increase the waterproofness of the shell (you
are only buying time here - all shell let water in eventually) and
*decrease* your level of output to control sweating.




-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================

 

[Peter Clinch]

pinnah wrote:

> 1) Pro riders don't always dress right. Fast descents is exactly the
> place where a well designed waterproof/breathable shell will shine due
> to its superior windproofness over normal woven or knit fabrics.

But a breathable waterproof shell will be bulkier and heavier (mainly an
issue for stowing out of use) than something like a pertex top, which is
easily windproof /enough/ to remove most of the chill. Only if it's
chucking it down with rain does it make any sense to add the extra
weight/bulk for waterproofing.

> High excertion in high wind conditions is common place among
> mountaineers. If you want to go with less insulation, you need to
> increase the windproofness of the shell.

Mountaineers are often expecting to be in ambients well below zero and
gale force from /any/ direction, not just the front. They'll also often
be standing around doing very little for potentially long periods
between the bouts of high exertion.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
"ship" <[email protected]> wrote:

> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night
> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become
> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes
> respond slowest!)

In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see color in
the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody Blues's lyric
"cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all colors from our
sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of the eye.

When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination
to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow.
I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative
response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if
some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others.

 

[Jan Lindström]

Peter Cole wrote:
> Jan Lindström wrote:
>> ship wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in
>>> UK)
>>>
>>
>> Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
>> (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They
>> are available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield
>> jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in
>> Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the
>> powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough.
>
> I'm a big fan of Malden Mills fabrics. Due to my unusual size
> (6'10"/210cm) I have to have many things made or do it myself. I have
> been very interested in Powershield as a cold-wet weather fabric, but
> didn't want to invest the time or money without some first-hand
> recommendations. Could you elaborate a little more on your experiences
> with Powershield?

The Powershield fabric is rather warm, it has a fleece-lining inside.
For instance, I just came back from a two-hour afternoon ride (it's
about 7 degrees celsius) and I wore just my regular cycling jersey
underneath the Powershield jacket and was comfortable, sweating of
course, but comfortable. The breathability of the fabric is light years
ahead of Gore XCR of any of the waterproof fabrics and much better than
Gore-Tex Windstopper fabric. I've used the same jacket for alpine skiing
in -20 temps wearing a shirt, middle layer and fleece under it, the
fabric is stretchy. The fabric blocks almost all wind. The Millet jacket
has arm pit zips, and opening the two breast pocket zips is a neat way
to get some cool air in.

I've ridden in plenty of rain with the jacket. It's comfortable in light
rain forever. The water never gets through and wets your shoulders or
upper back, but it's not shed off the fabric either - it seems to travel
through the surface layer of fabric with gravity, ie it flows on your
cuffs and at the hem. The jacket gets kind of half wet, the fleece
lining is dry and the surface layer damp. The water resistance has
stayed the same for 3 years of use and maybe 20 washes. If it rains hard
(which it very seldom does here up north) the water will get through and
wet your shoulders in half an hour - it's much like Gore Windstopper in
that regard.

Comparing the Powershield and my Gill Gore XCR jacket, if it's the
typical Finnish light rain and cold when I start my ride, I'll put on
the Powershield jacket and if there is a chance of heavy rain but it
isn't raining I'll carry the XCR jacket, since it packs in way less
space than the Powershield jacket. I did trust the Millet jacket's
weather resistance enough to take it as my only wet weather jacket on my
2005 tour in the Alps. It performed well, but I bought the Gill jacket
to cut down weight. For everyday use it's the jacket I choose in the
autumn, which is much like the weather in UK winter.

Jan

 

[Alex]

ship wrote:
> - How soft & compressible is it?

Medium soft. It won't compress enough to fit in a jersey pocket.

> - Do they make one in Yellow or Orange?

I only see gray and red on the web site. It does have nice reflective
strips on the sleeves
and back. It also has a loop for a blinky light on the back.

> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night
> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become
> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes
> respond
> slowest!)

I don't doubt it, but that is why you have reflective material on the
jacket.

> - It looks a bit baggy - does it flap?

I usually wear a size medium. I bought a size small and it fite me
well. It does not
flap when I wear it.

> - I wonder if you can buy them in the UK

I thin Nashbar will shipp internationally.

> - I couldnt find on the manufacturers site
> http://www.louisgarneau.com/eng/query.asp?qu=Supersonic

Me neither. Maybe that is why they have it on sale relatively cheap.
---------------------
Alex

 

[Alex]

Jan Lindström wrote:

> Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
> (http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are
> available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield
> jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in
> Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the
> powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough.

Nice jacket, but it is not waterproof. I also don't see any mention of
vents.
-------------------
Alex

 

[Tony Raven]

Peter Clinch wrote on 18/10/2006 09:32 +0100:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>> pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100:
>>>
>>> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it
>>> all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without
>>> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since
>>> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath.
>
>> Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour
>> to climb in the UK.
>
> Note "hike". If you can get up the Ben in an hour's hiking I'd be quite
> surprised. 10m/minute ascent is good going up a steep hill, and it's a
> lot more than 600m!
>

Doh! For hike I read bike!

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Tony Raven]

Simon Brooke wrote on 18/10/2006 10:35 +0100:
> in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 18:46 +0100:
>>> SMIDSY is almost always just an excuse. If there was a two ton steel
>>> statue of a cyclist painted black and bolted to the road, no car would
>>> hit it. Things that might kill them are very easy for drivers to see.
>> Do you want to reconsider that statement? They frequently manage to hit
>> gert big trees that have been growing alongside the road since before
>> they learnt to drive so I can't imagine a statue on the road faring
>> better.
>
> No, I don't. They don't 'frequently' manage to hit gert big trees; they
> remarkably rarely hit them, and always, I think. as a result of having
> lost control. I don't think drivers ever look at a tree and think 'oh,
> that isn't dangerous, it doesn't much matter if I pass it too close'.
>

It's not that rare from the press reports. They even drive into big
yellow skips on the road. They clearly don't think "Oh that looks
dangerous if I hit it, I'd better take a bit more care"

Nice to be back to not agreeing ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[Tony Raven]

Tim McNamara wrote on 18/10/2006 15:47 +0100:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night
>> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become
>> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes
>> respond slowest!)
>
> In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see color in
> the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody Blues's lyric
> "cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all colors from our
> sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of the eye.
>
> When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough illumination
> to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to see than yellow.
> I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks to see about relative
> response time to different wavelengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if
> some wavelengths are seen "faster" than others.

Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the
photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

Note also, that in a bike race the rider has to deal with water being
tossed up by the riders in front of him -- which makes it even harder
to stay dry. That's not the case when commuting.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote on 18/10/2006 15:47 +0100:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> (Apparently red is one of the WORST bright colours at night
> >> according to The New Scientist moving red objects can become
> >> invisible at night because our red receptor cones in our eyes
> >> respond slowest!)
> >
> > In the dark, they basically don't respond at all. We don't see
> > color in the dark, only grey, black and white. Hence the Moody
> > Blues's lyric "cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes all
> > colors from our sight." It's not the moon, it's the physiology of
> > the eye.
> >
> > When a driver's headlights shine upon you, there is enough
> > illumination to see color. But as you note, red is still harder to
> > see than yellow. I'd have to dig out my old perception textbooks
> > to see about relative response time to different wavelengths, but I
> > wouldn't be surprised if some wavelengths are seen "faster" than
> > others.
>
> Faster is not the issue - visibility is. The curves you need are the
> photopic and scotopic visual sensitivities and they can be found at
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/bright.html

Nice resource, keeps it simple. Thanks!

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

Tony Raven wrote:
> pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100:
>>
>> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip
>> it all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without
>> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since
>> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath.
>>
>
> Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour
> to climb in the UK.

What's your time for Bealach Na Ba?

A

 

[Pete Biggs]

ship wrote:

> I have need something that is at least VERY showerproof - not
> very shower proof just wont cut it!

On how many of your commutes does it rain at all? And how long are your
commutes?

Getting a bit damp from light rain going through ordinary clothing isn't
/that/ bad, and getting a bit damp from sweat when wearing a waterproof
jacket in heavy rain isn't /that/ bad - in London (where it's rarely
terribly cold).

> The thing is yes, if the weather is looking *completely* dry then
> I can cheerfully wear my Pertex thing from Montane.

You can still wear it even if the weather is looking sh1t. Just change into
your waterproof at a traffic light if it does come on to rain, and take it
off when it stops. How often will you need to wear a showerproof for the
whole journey, let alone a waterproof? It's just a few days per year.

~PB

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Tim McNamara writes:
>
> >> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour
> >> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as
> >> you can see from the pictures at:
>
> >> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works.
>
> >> 1. It must be water proof.
>
> >> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes
> >> and nose are exposed.
>
> >> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but
> >> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent
> >> freezing hands.
>
> >> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front.
>
> >> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front
> >> partially open even in rain.
>
> >> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry
> >> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside.
> >> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle.
>
> >> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the
> >> wind when descending.
>
> >> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from
> >> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the
> >> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is.
>
> >> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried
> >> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not
> >> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets
> >> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold
> >> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing.

Jobst, I have been very happy with my "racing" jacket (a Louis Garneau
Windtex), which is a form-fitting jacket with no vents, elastic cuffs,
and a collar (but no hood). On its own, it is remarkably warm,
rain-resistant, and combined with a jersey, is warm down to at least
zero.

http://louisgarneau.com/eng/ctm_catalog.asp?catalogue=C7

I like this jacket so much (and note that mine is in my club's colours)
that I occasionally wear it on non-cycling occasions. My wife thinks
this is weird.

Full disclosure: Garneau is a major sponsor of my club. I really do like
this jacket, though.

On longer wet rides, I add a plastic rain jacket, not quite as
form-fitted as the jacket. I also wear a helmet (sometimes with a cap
underneath) which obviates much of the need for a hood. I have a neck
sock or two for really wacky weather. The rain cape, with its velcro
front closure, stops water dead.

For gloves, I have given up on fancy, and chosen the nuclear option:
neoprene paddling gloves. They're boring, non-breathing, and neither
wind, nor rain, nor dead of night can keep my hands from being warm.

I am satisfied with this gear for rides up into the 3-hour range: after
3 hours of typical 2-5 C wet weather in the dead of a Vancouver winter,
this outfit leaves me warm, comfortable, and pretty dry.

Still looking for a comparable footwear solution,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos