What is the ideal cycling jacket (for UK commuting)



<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Art Harris writes:
>
> >> I am looking for something that is:
>
> >> b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE
> >> a) Bright in colour /reflective at night
> >> c) ultra-Compact
> >> d) nearly(+) waterproof
> >> e) COOL
>
> >> Plus ideally:
> >> f) aerodyamic/elastic??
> >> g) fairly durable?
>
> >> Budget: upto GBP 300.
>
> > "Waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive terms
that no
> > amount of money will reconcile. Best advice is to get a
decent
> > "water resistant" thin windbreaker with vented back and arm
pits.
> > Here in the US, I bought an inexpensive Hind jacket a few
years ago
> > that's OK for light rain, but not a heavy downpour.
>
> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer
tour in
> the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does
as you
> can see from the pictures at:
>
> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html
>
> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works.
>
> 1. It must be water proof.
>
> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only
eyes and
> nose are exposed.
>
> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but
must
> insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent
freezing
> hands.
>
> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the
front.
>
> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front
partially
> open even in rain.
>
> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't
dry
> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside.
> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a
bicycle.
>
> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in
the
> wind when descending.
>
> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from
forced
> convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the
jacket
> remains still and notice how much warmer it is.
>
> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't
tried
> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least
not
> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most
jackets
> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold
Santa
> Clause with many layers of clothing.

You are describing a "descending the Alps in the snow jacket"
which is not the same thing as commuting in the rain jacket. For
commuting, a single-wall, breathable and well vented jacket is a
good bet. I commute in a Burley rain jacket with pit zips and a
back vent, which stays reasonably dry inside even when I go home
through the hills. As for long descents in the wet and cold, it
would not be my first choice because it suffers from all the ills
you mention. I am still experimenting with that, but I think the
best approach may be a weatherproof/breathable jersey up and a
packable storm shell down (this is day riding with no seatpacks
or panniers). -- Jay Beattie.
 
On 17 Oct 2006 02:39:45 -0700, "ship" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur
>> waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about
>> just getting wet.
>
>Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they
>have to TRAIN in the wet?
>
>I mean if you're actually *racing* who give a sh*t about being a tad
>wet!
>Speed, tactics etc occupy the mind...
>
>But if you are only *training* then... why get wet when you dont
>actually
>*have* to ?
>
>( - Would any pros or hardcore semi-pros care to comment...?)
>
>
>Ship
>Shiperton Henethe

Dear Ship,

It's claimed that the quick-release was invented because Tullio
Campagnolo was so frustrated when he tried to change his flip-flop
wheel on a snowy pass:

http://www.campyonly.com/history.html

Page down once for a picture of Tullio in short sleeves in the snow.

In the 2001 Tour de France, the undemanding stage 8 from Colmar was a
bit damp and chilly.

The last 161 riders, including Armstrong, finished 35:24 behind 14
riders who decided not to take it easy. Apart from glory, the 14
no-name riders longed for hot showers and wanted to get out of the
near-freezing rain.

Here's Tyler Hamilton's comment:

"It doesn't take much for a guy like me to get really cold on a day
like today. Even though I was wearing multiple layers of clothing
there isn't much you can do when you're soaked to the bone. Especially
when there's no end to the cats and dogs pouring down on you. Luckily
there weren't any huge descents. When you're as cold I was today, a
down hill section can really do you in. I've been so cold before that
my hands were too numb to change gears. And after a stage like we just
endured, you can also look forward to duking it out with your roommate
for rights to the bath tub. That is if you're lucky enough to have one
in your room. A lot of European hotels only have shower stalls."

Tyler finished 64th that day, 35:24 behind, just like Armstrong in
51st place:

http://www.velonews.com/race/tour2001/articles/1163.r.html

Since over 90% of the field finished 35:24 behind the stage winner,
Tour de France officials had to invoke the rule that says anyone who
finishes that far behind is eliminated--

Unless it makes the Tour look bad.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
Artoi who? writes:

>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour
>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as
>> you can see from the pictures at:

http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html

>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works.

>> 1. It must be water proof.

>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes
>> and nose are exposed.

>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but
>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent
>> freezing hands.

>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front.

>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially
>> open even in rain.

>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry
>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside.
>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle.

>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the
>> wind when descending.

>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from
>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the
>> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is.

>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried
>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not
>> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets
>> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold
>> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing.

> Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches
> the requirements?

> Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;)

The ones I have came form LL Bean and North Face and are not current
items ate either place. Just go to your mountaineering store and
search. I found no one at Patagonia at InterBike to whom I could
discuss the subject. However, I think they have some parkas that come
close to what I prefer.

Jobst Brandt
 
in message <[email protected]>, Clive
George ('[email protected]') wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>> Not the only problem : the eejits are more of a fashion brand than
>>> people aiming for performance. (look at the colour - it may look cool,
>>> but there's no way I'm wearing that out on the road).
>>
>> Don't you believe it. I don't have much Rapha stuff because of the cost;
>> but if I were richer or less stingy I'd have more. It's the nicest, most
>> practical, most comfortable cycling kit out there. And as for the
>> colour, what is your problem with black?
>
> In general - not at all. My cycling trousers/shorts are all black, and
> I've got a fair proportion of black tops I wear when off the bike.
>
> For riding out on the road? Um, that it's not terribly visible? Isn't
> this just screamingly obvious to you? (no, otherwise you wouldn't have
> asked the question...)

No. Most of my favourite cycling clothing is black. What's the problem?

> Most of us ride in places where there's rather more than one car per day.

You may have a point. I was out with friends on an 85 mile ride yesterday,
and we saw fewer than twenty cars in motion. However, any motorist who
does not see a cyclist in daylight ought to have his licence revoked on
the spot, irrespective of what the cyclist is wearing.

SMIDSY is almost always just an excuse. If there was a two ton steel statue
of a cyclist painted black and bolted to the road, no car would hit it.
Things that might kill them are very easy for drivers to see.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
to transfer it by HTTP.
 
Tim McNamara writes:

>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour
>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as
>> you can see from the pictures at:

>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works.

>> 1. It must be water proof.

>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes
>> and nose are exposed.

>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but
>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent
>> freezing hands.

>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front.

>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front
>> partially open even in rain.

>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry
>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside.
>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle.

>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the
>> wind when descending.

>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from
>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the
>> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is.

>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried
>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not
>> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets
>> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold
>> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing.

> Good for your purposes, but I wonder if a rain jacket like that
> would be suitable for riding to work in typical cool, rainy weather.
> On the rides you describe, getting chilled could be life threatening
> if you start to shiver and the bike develops a wobble on a mountain
> hairpin descent, or if your hands get cold enough that you can't
> grip the brakes properly. On a commute to work in one's office
> clothing, on the other hand, one might arrive at work a sodden mess
> from sweat.

As you see, I qualified the remarks for my use on bicycle tours.
What you ride to work doesn't look like want I describe.

Jobst Brandt
 
> So far I can't find ANYTHING on the market that is remotely
> satisfactory.

Been there, done that. I had a Gill jacket that was very waterproof,
but didn't breath enough for my liking. No waterproof fabric will
breath enough by itself. What you need is a back vent as well as some
pit vents or chest vents. Right now I am using the Louis Garneau
Supersonic jacket that I got at the following location:

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...toreid=&pagename=Shop by Brand: Louis Garneau

The goodthings are that it is waterproof. It has a rear vent and pit
zips for extra ventilation. It also has a two way zipper. The hood is
detachable. It has a large rear center pocket where you can stow the
hood. It has a drop tail. It has a mesh lining. Those are all the
good things.
I wish that it was made of a lighter material as it gets too hot in
temps over 55 or so. The hood really coud use a bigger bill on it. As
is, the bill is so small as to be useless. It doesn't fold very
compactly. I haven't found a better jacket yet, so I will stick with
this one for now.
----------------
Alex
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>> For riding out on the road? Um, that it's not terribly visible? Isn't
>> this just screamingly obvious to you? (no, otherwise you wouldn't have
>> asked the question...)
>
> No. Most of my favourite cycling clothing is black. What's the problem?

I'd rather have the extra visibility.

>> Most of us ride in places where there's rather more than one car per day.
>
> You may have a point. I was out with friends on an 85 mile ride yesterday,
> and we saw fewer than twenty cars in motion. However, any motorist who
> does not see a cyclist in daylight ought to have his licence revoked on
> the spot, irrespective of what the cyclist is wearing.

True. However that doesn't actually happen, so I like to increase my 'big'
to cope with those who are driving below the required standard. My choice of
cycling tops makes this easy.

Like I said before, I based this on personal observation as a driver - those
cyclists in fluo tops were massively more obvious. It was a significant
difference.

cheers,
clive
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> I have had great results with the Showers Pass Elite jacket. As others
> have pointed out, "waterproof" and "breathable" are mutually exclusive
> (Gore's marketspeak notwithstanding- water vapor molecules can't pass
> through the membrane when it's wetter outside than in). A good
> ventilation strategy is key. The Showers Pass jacket's ventilation
> works quite well IME. It will also be well below your budget of £300
> (the exchange rate ought to bring it below £100).
>
> http://www.showerspass.com/cart/index.php?cPath=21_25
>
> Hope this helps!

This jacket reminds me of the Louis Garneau Supersonic that I have.
The optional hood looks like it would be better than the one on the LG
jacket. A nice bill is important to keep the water out of your eyes.
-------------------
Alex
 
ship wrote:
> >
> > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur
> > waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're too worried about
> > just getting wet.
>
> Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they
> have to TRAIN in the wet?

That's what rollers and trainers are for. They are not going to risk a
crash or getting sick.
-----------------
Alex
 
Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 18:46 +0100:
>
> SMIDSY is almost always just an excuse. If there was a two ton steel statue
> of a cyclist painted black and bolted to the road, no car would hit it.
> Things that might kill them are very easy for drivers to see.
>

Do you want to reconsider that statement? They frequently manage to hit
gert big trees that have been growing alongside the road since before
they learnt to drive so I can't imagine a statue on the road faring better.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
 
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:10:12 +0100, Tony Raven wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote on 17/10/2006 08:58 +0100:

>> The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes, and a masseur
>> waiting for them at the end of the ride;

> And a beer and Jack Daniels ;-)

All kidding, tradition, and "hot toddy" lore aside, I've found that
alcohol or caffeine just makes me colder.

For instant carb replacement, a good beer can be very satisfying,
but the alcohol's effect is greater when one is famished.

Matt O.
 
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:41:04 +0000, jobst.brandt wrote:

> Artoi who? writes:
>
>>> I'm with you on that except that I use my parka on my summer tour
>>> in the Alps where it can snow any day of the year and often does as
>>> you can see from the pictures at:
>
> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos.html
>
>>> For that reason I have a more stringent rule on what works.
>
>>> 1. It must be water proof.
>
>>> 2. It must have a hood that can be cinched down so that only eyes
>>> and nose are exposed.
>
>>> 3. It should be double layered, the inner layer can be mesh but
>>> must insulate the outer skin from the rider's arms to prevent
>>> freezing hands.
>
>>> 4. Velcro closure on sleeves and over the zipper down the front.
>
>>> 5. No vents or slots. Climbing can be done with the front partially
>>> open even in rain.
>
>>> 6. No Gore-Tex, the outer layer of which gets wet and doesn't dry
>>> readily, and the same goes for condensation on the inside.
>>> Breathing is illusory for someone climbing hills on a bicycle.
>
>>> 7. Bonus: Stiff and tight fitting enough so it does not flap in the
>>> wind when descending.
>
>>> Flapping sleeves and body is the greatest loss of warmth from
>>> forced convection. Next time when descending, hold the arms so the
>>> jacket remains still and notice how much warmer it is.
>
>>> Unfortunately, the people who make bicycle jackets haven't tried
>>> descending a 20km alpine pass when it's snowing... or at least not
>>> with an understanding of why it is as cold as it is. Most jackets
>>> have no adequate neck and head covering and have a body to hold
>>> Santa Clause with many layers of clothing.
>
>> Sounds good! So what's the best product you've found that matches
>> the requirements?
>
>> Any cuts for the product endorsement? ;)
>
> The ones I have came form LL Bean and North Face and are not current
> items ate either place. Just go to your mountaineering store and
> search. I found no one at Patagonia at InterBike to whom I could
> discuss the subject. However, I think they have some parkas that come
> close to what I prefer.

As the owner of one of those, I can recommend the Lightning model or its
successors. Actually I think they have several now on sale that are about
the same thing. Look for "contoured fit," or email one of their reps to
find the best equivalent.

If I hadn't found this one, I probably would have bought a Showers
Pass. They do make non-Goretex, waterproof versions of their jackets
for a lot less money. Showers Pass have a nice cycling-specific cut, and
pack small enough to fit in a normal seat bag.

Matt O.
 
"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ship wrote:
> > >
> > > The professionals have a hot shower, a change of clothes,
and a masseur
> > > waiting for them at the end of the ride; I doubt they're
too worried about
> > > just getting wet.
> >
> > Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they
> > have to TRAIN in the wet?
>
> That's what rollers and trainers are for. They are not going to
risk a
> crash or getting sick.

The amateurs ride in the rain in Oregon all the time. I ride
with racers (I would call it training, but I am not training for
anything), and typical gear is a polypro undershirt, a storm
jersey (one of the water resistant, wind-proof heavy jerseys), a
jacket for the descents, thermal tights and booties. I did a ride
this spring to the top of Larch Mountain, which is a 14 mile
climb, and it rained for the whole day -- about 100 miles round
trip. There was snow on the ground at the top, but the
temperatures stayed above freezing. I imprudently wore a Burley
jacket that was soaked through by the time I hit the climb, and I
was shivering so hard on the descent that I could barely keep my
bike going straight. The guys in the group who did the best had
unvented, water proof shells that they put on for the descent.
Some of the good climbers (who were pretty well dressed)ended up
calling their wives for a bail-out at the bottom of the hill
because they could not stop shivering. I eventually warmed up,
probably because of my superior and abundant body fat. -- Jay
Beattie.
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>Basically, I've not found any jacket that keeps on dry from the rain and
>also from sweat. Until nanotechnology invents some miracle fabric that
>actively transports water vapor molecules and heat out and cool air in,
>rain jackets will make the rider damp from sweat. Good ventilation, I
>have found, is currently the key to comfort.

This is something that is lost on many people. I generally suggest 2
experiments to those who haven't come this conclusion.

1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it
all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without
adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since
you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath.

In a steady rain, wear a high quality non-breathable rain jacket and
perform some non-strenuous activity (fishing in a boat, perhaps).
Eventually, you will wet inside due to water intrusion at the hood and
cuffs.

All waterproof/breathables fall between these 2 extremes. Of them,
GoreTex has traditionally provided the most breathability for the same
waterproofness. IME, it remains the best for high output activities
in wet weather near freezing temp (like fall/spring backpacking in
New England).

Another big benifit of GoreTex is its improved windproofness. This can
allow for fewer layers in windy (or fast-forward) conditions.

I've had very different experiences with lined jackets than Jobst
mentions. I've found that lined jackets of all kinds eventally get
soaked inside and out (as all jackets do in horrible conditions) but
once soaked, they take forever to dry out. The inner layers, whether
nylon or mesh, hold moisture for a very long time. I find these fine
for about town wear, for lift served skiing and other front country
applications where you can retreat to shelter and dryers. But for
backcountry applications or for times where yo uneed the jacket to dry
faster, I prefer an unlined jacket.

For bike commuting, I totally agree with the advice already given. Get
a GoreTex jacket for wet conditions and a cheap non-waterproof jacket
for all other times.

Lastly, you might check your local library for the backpacking books
authored by Chris Townsend (a fellow Brit). He has one of the best
discussions of waterproof/breathables I've read (and I really like
Colin Fletcher). He also discusses Sympatex which has more
availability in Europe and Buffalo Systems P&P clothing. (not that I
would suggest the P&P stuff for bike commuting)



-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================
 
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd be inclined to get something like the Foska top for cold days and a
>close cut pertex top for more general use.

I agree with pretty much everything Peter says, which is something
goes back to many years. The only thing I would add is how important
it is for Pertex shells to fit snuggly for cycling. My Pertex riding
jacket flaps insanely enough to have warrant several self-tailoring
episodes to tighten the fit. This is fine for fitness riding where
I've dialed in the range of underlayers that will fit under that
shell. For commuting, I would trade the wonderful qualities of Pertex
for something a bit thicker with a heavier hand so that I could use a
looser fit to deal with variable layers underneath better.

Aside for Peter... Long time no see from back with
rec.skiing.backcountry had a meaninful signal. You might be interested
in my nordic backcountry page. Hope you're still finding time for
skiing!
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html





-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================
 
"ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
>We can put rockets on the moon but we STILL cant make a waterproof
>highly breathable jacket. I'd call it pretty pathetic!


Naw. You can easily outsweat *any* shell material. Heck, you can
outsweat a decent long-sleeved underlayer! Try it. Ride in a
non-waterproof jacket in dry weather but don't take it off when you
start to overheat.


-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================
 
"ship" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Okay put it another way, what do professionals do when they
>have to TRAIN in the wet?

Pros don't worry about being wet. All that is needed is to stay
comfortably warm. You can be wet and warm at the same time. Warm when
wet insulators and windproofness is all that's needed.

This is very different from the commuting question of the OP


-- Dave
==============================================
"It is impossible, or not easy, to do noble acts
without the proper equipment."
Aristotle, <<Politics>>, 1323a-b, trans Jowett
==============================================
 
ship wrote:
> Hi
>
> What is the best cycling jacket for commuting (at reasonable speed in
> UK)
>
> I am looking for something that is:
>
> b) HIGHLY BREATHABLE
> a) Bright in colour /reflective at night
> c) ultra-Compact
> d) nearly(+) waterproof
> e) COOL
>
> Plus ideally:
> f) aerodyamic/elastic??
> g) fairly durable?
>
> Budget: upto GBP 300.
>

Get an Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
(http://www.arcteryx.com/mens.aspx?type=Jackets&cat=Softshell). They are
available with or without a hood. I've used a Polartec Powershield
jacket by Millet for 3 years in the cold and wet commutes here in
Finland. The Gamma jacket is cut slim and won't flap too much and the
powershield fabric can take typical English drizzle for long enough.

Jan
 
pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100:
>
> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it
> all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without
> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since
> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath.
>

Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour
to climb in the UK.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> pinnah wrote on 18/10/2006 01:08 +0100:
>>
>> 1) In warm but dry weather, put on a basic nylon supplex shell, zip it
>> all the way shut and hike up a steep hill for an hour without
>> adjusting the zippers. Soon you will be drenched with sweat since
>> you'll sweat faster than the nylon will breath.

> Even at my pace I doubt I could find a steep hill that took me an hour
> to climb in the UK.

Note "hike". If you can get up the Ben in an hour's hiking I'd be quite
surprised. 10m/minute ascent is good going up a steep hill, and it's a
lot more than 600m!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
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