Finding my ideal gears

[Membrane]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

>> This is a good point, using the front derailer requires more care and
>> time, not a bother for me in the mountains, but on the flat and
>> particularly in the city (which I have to get through to get to the
>> mountains) I much prefer not to have to use the front and only use the
>> rear derailer. This requires less care which leaves me free to
>> concentrate on the traffic.

>Ah! You use Shimano. OK, yes, the triple is probably the way to go.

Are you saying that Campagnolo front derailers are less fussy?

>Get cleats. You will never regret it.

It is part of the appeal of buying another bike, not much point in
fitting cleat pedals to the current mongrel in the mean time.

--
Membrane

 

[Roger Merriman]

Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 May 2007 03:08:39 -0500, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [---]
>
> >(which is nothing beside the huge pile of cakes to replace
> >the energy used when you were actually pedalling)
>
> If only. I was quite demoralised, the day I discovered that you need
> to ride around 30km to burn off the calories contained in one single
> mars bar.

depends on the lye of the land, and mars bars are rather high in
calories i suspect.

roger

 

[Daniel Barlow]

Roger Merriman wrote:
> depends on the lye of the land, and mars bars are rather high in
> calories i suspect.

About 300

 

[Peter Clinch]

Membrane wrote:

> It is part of the appeal of buying another bike, not much point in
> fitting cleat pedals to the current mongrel in the mean time.

Why not? If you're buying clipless pedals anyway might as well get used
to them ASAP and transfer them to the new bike along with the new
techniques.

I used to be out of the saddle all the time, but I just spin up things
from the seat these days. Actually quite a bit more efficient once
you've got tuned into it, and /much/ easier with clipless pedals.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Membrane]

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

>> It is part of the appeal of buying another bike, not much point in
>> fitting cleat pedals to the current mongrel in the mean time.
>
>Why not? If you're buying clipless pedals anyway might as well get used
>to them ASAP and transfer them to the new bike along with the new
>techniques.

If the new (to me) bike comes with clipless pedals then I would have
wasted the price of a set of pedals. The old bike is a low end hybrid,
the type of person I'd be selling it on to almost certainly wouldn't
want clipless pedals.

>I used to be out of the saddle all the time, but I just spin up things
>from the seat these days. Actually quite a bit more efficient once
>you've got tuned into it, and /much/ easier with clipless pedals.

I expect to completely reevaluate my pedalling style when going
clipless.

--
Membrane

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Membrane
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> This is a good point, using the front derailer requires more care and
>>> time, not a bother for me in the mountains, but on the flat and
>>> particularly in the city (which I have to get through to get to the
>>> mountains) I much prefer not to have to use the front and only use the
>>> rear derailer. This requires less care which leaves me free to
>>> concentrate on the traffic.
>
>>Ah! You use Shimano. OK, yes, the triple is probably the way to go.
>
> Are you saying that Campagnolo front derailers are less fussy?

Yes. SRAM are, too. Actually, it isn't the derailleur, it's the shifter
that makes the difference. Shimano ones have only three positions - which
would be great if you only had three cogs at the back and always shifted
the back cog at the same time as the front to keep the chainline straight.
But you don't, and so at least 70% of the time you're riding with a
crooked chainline and the Shimano system doesn't work very well.

Both Campag and SRAM shifters have as many index positions for the front as
for the back, so it's possible to trim the front mech. This means that
it's possible to set up the front mech so that it's much less likely to
shed the chain on the inside (it /should/ be easy enough to prevent
dropping the chain on the outside with any system, but I confess I don't
always manage).

The other solution, if you're having trouble with chain shedding on the
inside, is to fit a 'dogtooth' to catch the chain and gently guide it back
onto the cog.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

-- mens vacua in medio vacuo --

 

[Peter Clinch]

Membrane wrote:

> If the new (to me) bike comes with clipless pedals then I would have
> wasted the price of a set of pedals. The old bike is a low end hybrid,
> the type of person I'd be selling it on to almost certainly wouldn't
> want clipless pedals.

It's relatively unusual to sell bikes with clipless aside from as an
option (or was, when I last looked), which makes a lot of sense as
different customers will want different pedal systems: why force someone
into a pair of SPuDs when they want/use Looks or Times?
So road bikes will usually come either with no pedals at all or a set of
platforms with clips and straps.

Putting clipless on your existing bike doesn't force you to throw the
old pedals away. Put them aside and re-fit them when you sell the bike on.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Membrane]

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's relatively unusual to sell bikes with clipless aside from as an
>option (or was, when I last looked)

I haven't been looking for another bike for long, I've seen clipless
bikes offered with and without pedals in a ~50/50 ratio. Presumably folk
upgrading to another bike hang on to their pedals, people who gave up on
cycling leave them on.

>Putting clipless on your existing bike doesn't force you to throw the
>old pedals away. Put them aside and re-fit them when you sell the bike on.

Its the potential wasted expense of buying the clipless pedals that
bothered me. But if I do end up buying a bike with clipless pedals it
may not be the system I want, or it may have toe clips, so I might bite
the bullet and get a pair of shoes and entry level pedals to fit to the
mongrel.

I'm considering getting these:
Shimano RO85 shoes:
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=156&idproduct=13728
Shimano R540 SPD-SL pedals:
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=102&idproduct=4263
Shimano SPD-SL Cleats:
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=121&idproduct=5648

I don't know what "Floating mode" or "Fixed mode" means for the cleats,
if anyone can provide some guidance on that choice it would help.

--
Membrane

 

[Clive George]

"Membrane" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> It is part of the appeal of buying another bike, not much point in
>>> fitting cleat pedals to the current mongrel in the mean time.
>>
>>Why not? If you're buying clipless pedals anyway might as well get used
>>to them ASAP and transfer them to the new bike along with the new
>>techniques.
>
> If the new (to me) bike comes with clipless pedals then I would have
> wasted the price of a set of pedals. The old bike is a low end hybrid,
> the type of person I'd be selling it on to almost certainly wouldn't
> want clipless pedals.

A set of clipless pedals costs 20 quid.

> I expect to completely reevaluate my pedalling style when going
> clipless.

And as such is worth doing now.

cheers,
clive

 

[Peter Clinch]

Membrane wrote:

> I'm considering getting these:
> Shimano RO85 shoes:
> http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=156&idproduct=13728

Try them on first: Shimano make their shoes on a narrow last and that's
fine if you have feet shaped like their last, but if you don't it's
money down the drain. Same advice goes for all makes of shoe: it's
pretty pointless deciding from pictures and paper specs as all shoes and
all feet come in very different shapes that aren't accounted for in a
shoe size.

Another thing you can assess when trying them is what walking is like in
them. If you never intend using the bike to go somewhere and then walk
around a bit it's not much of an issue, but if you quite like the idea
of doing something on a cycle outing /other/ than cycling then shoes you
can walk in make a lot of sense. Road racing shoes are more often pants
than not in this regard (and don't forget to assess this with a cleat
fitted!)

> Shimano R540 SPD-SL pedals:
> http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=102&idproduct=4263
> Shimano SPD-SL Cleats:
> http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=121&idproduct=5648

> I don't know what "Floating mode" or "Fixed mode" means for the cleats,
> if anyone can provide some guidance on that choice it would help.

Float is the amount of rotation that the system will allow without the
shoe coming unclipped. Typically some float is better if your knees are
at all creaky, but not always.

With the above in mind about walking, it may be worth looking at
MTB/touring shoes as well as roadie shoes if you plan on doing any.
These will typically take a different cleat (classic SPuDs or
compatible) which is much smaller. The whole system isn't as good for
getting power into the transmission, but at least you're not tottering
about any time you ever get off (I use Time ATAC pedals/cleats in
MTB/touring shoes for a nice compromise between off-bike mobility and
utility and working well, plus Times give more float than SPuDs, engage
more positively IMHO and are less prone to disengaging with worn cleats).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Membrane]

Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I'm considering getting these:
>> Shimano RO85 shoes:
>> http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=156&idproduct=13728
>
>Try them on first: Shimano make their shoes on a narrow last

It is a shop local to me, I wouldn't consider buying unknown shoes of
the net. I am aware that Shimano sizes are on the small side, typically
requiring one size larger than what you're used to.

>Another thing you can assess when trying them is what walking is like in
>them. If you never intend using the bike to go somewhere and then walk
>around a bit it's not much of an issue, but if you quite like the idea
>of doing something on a cycle outing /other/ than cycling then shoes you
>can walk in make a lot of sense. Road racing shoes are more often pants
>than not in this regard (and don't forget to assess this with a cleat
>fitted!)

I read a WikiPedia article on Shimano that says that the SPD system was
designed to allow for more comfortable walking:

"Shimano introduced the SPD range of clipless pedals and matching shoes
designed specifically for so that the shoes could be used for walking.
The shoes have a recess in the bottom of the sole for fitting the
smaller cleats and therefore it does not protrude, while conventional
clipless road pedals are designed for road cycling shoes which have
smooth soles with large protruding cleats, which cannot be used for
walking."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimano

Although when reading it again it seems to apply only to a smaller 2
bolt (mtb?) cleats, not the 3 bolt (road?) cleats that I linked to.

I don't expect to walk on these shoes much beyond hobbling out of the
house with the bike and the occasional country road lunch stop for
longer rides.

>With the above in mind about walking, it may be worth looking at
>MTB/touring shoes as well as roadie shoes if you plan on doing any.
>These will typically take a different cleat (classic SPuDs or
>compatible) which is much smaller. The whole system isn't as good for
>getting power into the transmission, but at least you're not tottering
>about any time you ever get off (I use Time ATAC pedals/cleats in
>MTB/touring shoes for a nice compromise between off-bike mobility and
>utility and working well, plus Times give more float than SPuDs, engage
>more positively IMHO and are less prone to disengaging with worn cleats).

I also had a look at entry level Time RXE pedals:
http://www.cycleways.com/store/product/25489/Time-RXE-Pedal/
but I couldn't figure out if they were compatible with the Shimano shoes
& cleats and thought I'd be safer to stick to one brand.

--
Membrane

 

[[email protected]]

On 16 May, 13:04, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Another thing you can assess when trying them is what walking is like in
> them. If you never intend using the bike to go somewhere and then walk
> around a bit it's not much of an issue, but if you quite like the idea
> of doing something on a cycle outing /other/ than cycling then shoes you
> can walk in make a lot of sense. Road racing shoes are more often pants
> than not in this regard (and don't forget to assess this with a cleat
> fitted!)

What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
transport, rather than a leisure activity? The vast majority of my
cycling involves spending very little time on the bike (typical
examples- getting to work involves less than half an hour on the bike
each way, going to the local shop or a meeting in the village: five
minutes on the bike, going out cycling with the kids: pootling along
for an hour or so, often on & off the bike). Even when I was cycle
touring I would normally only be on the bike for five or six hours in
the day, broken up with stops to look at stuff, eat etc.

I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use (or
professionals, of course), but I seem to be in a small and shrinking
minority.
Maybe it's the way I use my bike(s) that's getting increasingly
uncommon?

Cheers,
W.

 

[Clive George]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
> transport, rather than a leisure activity? The vast majority of my
> cycling involves spending very little time on the bike (typical
> examples- getting to work involves less than half an hour on the bike
> each way, going to the local shop or a meeting in the village: five
> minutes on the bike, going out cycling with the kids: pootling along
> for an hour or so, often on & off the bike). Even when I was cycle
> touring I would normally only be on the bike for five or six hours in
> the day, broken up with stops to look at stuff, eat etc.
>
> I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
> appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use (or
> professionals, of course), but I seem to be in a small and shrinking
> minority.
> Maybe it's the way I use my bike(s) that's getting increasingly
> uncommon?

Plenty of people have clipless for commuting use. Work shoes live in the
office. MTB clipless is also fine for your other uses (shopping, touring,
etc) - it's what I and others use in those situations. I've just ended up in
the situation that my most commonly used shoes have cleats...

cheers,
clive

 

[Peter Clinch]

[email protected] wrote:

> What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
> transport, rather than a leisure activity? The vast majority of my
> cycling involves spending very little time on the bike (typical
> examples- getting to work involves less than half an hour on the bike
> each way, going to the local shop or a meeting in the village: five
> minutes on the bike, going out cycling with the kids: pootling along
> for an hour or so, often on & off the bike).

In that situation I'd just use platforms, which is what I do on my
Brompton which is also my default local hack. But of course the point
of buying a Serious Road Bike as the OP seems intent on puts the job in
perspective... I wouldn't wear cycling shoes and use clipless pedals for
a pootle to the local shop, but then I wouldn't use a road racer for
that either.

> I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
> appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use

If a commute is far enough and has easy opportunities to leave some
Sensible Shoes at work to change into I'd think it would often be worth
it. Insert your own value of "far enough"...
I use clipless on my freighter because it makes a huge difference
getting 50 Kg loads up a big hill.

For a mixed-mode machine two sided SPuD/platform pedals make a lot of sense.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Membrane wrote:

> Although when reading it again it seems to apply only to a smaller 2
> bolt (mtb?) cleats, not the 3 bolt (road?) cleats that I linked to.

Yes. Note that there's no problem using MTB cleats on a road machine,
aside from slight loss of efficiency (but still way better than
clips/straps or platforms).

> I don't expect to walk on these shoes much beyond hobbling out of the
> house with the bike and the occasional country road lunch stop for
> longer rides.

No problem using SPuD-R or Look (or Time) in that case. I'll leave it
the roadies to discuss the relative merits of either system, though my
overall impression is that Looks are the Default Road Pedal.

> I also had a look at entry level Time RXE pedals:
> http://www.cycleways.com/store/product/25489/Time-RXE-Pedal/
> but I couldn't figure out if they were compatible with the Shimano shoes
> & cleats and thought I'd be safer to stick to one brand.

You're generally looking at 3 bolt (big, road) or 2 bolt (small, MTB)
cleats, and the shoes designed for 3 won't work for 2 and vice versa,
but shoes made for 2 hole cleats will typically fit them all and I
/assume/ it's the same for 3.

(Note that the Times I use are more like this
(http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/productDetails.asp?productID=6383) and are
MTB type. If you /do/ want something to walk in too I reckon these are
quite a bit better than your actual SPuDs)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Arthur Clune]

[email protected] wrote:

> What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
> transport, rather than a leisure activity?

Wear normal shoes and use platform pedals. I find normal shoes slip
off cheap plastic pedals in the wet, which is scary!

This sort of thing:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=684&category=114

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>> I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
>> appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use
>
>If a commute is far enough and has easy opportunities to leave some
>Sensible Shoes at work to change into I'd think it would often be worth
>it. Insert your own value of "far enough"...

Yes. I've got two sided SPD/platform pedals, and bother with SPD shoes
if I'm doing the 16 miles commute, and don't when using the Park and Ride.
(Though I now use a folding bike and smaller car for the P&R, and only
have flat pedals on the folder.)

Sometimes I change shoes at work, sometimes I just wear the (MTB style)
cleated shoes all day, depending how organised I am and/or whether I've
failed to replace some worn out shoes for months and am using what used
to be a spare pair as an only pair....

I have recently started using some road shoes with MTB style SPD cleats
(having dismantled the pedals and reassembled them and swapped the clip
bits, they now release in the right directioni). The shoes are more
comfortable (but better fitting MTB shoes would be more comfortable too),
but I haven't yet decided whether they are really worth the awkwardness of
walking in them (though I did modify a Time 4-bolt adaptor as a surround
so the cleat is recessed). They would be impractical to wear all day.
..

 

[Pete Biggs]

[email protected] wrote:

> What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
> transport, rather than a leisure activity? The vast majority of my
> cycling involves spending very little time on the bike (typical
> examples- getting to work involves less than half an hour on the bike
> each way, going to the local shop or a meeting in the village: five
> minutes on the bike, going out cycling with the kids: pootling along
> for an hour or so, often on & off the bike). Even when I was cycle
> touring I would normally only be on the bike for five or six hours in
> the day, broken up with stops to look at stuff, eat etc.
>
> I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
> appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use (or
> professionals, of course), but I seem to be in a small and shrinking
> minority.
> Maybe it's the way I use my bike(s) that's getting increasingly
> uncommon?

In London at least, there is a boom in cycle commuting and utility cycling,
and clipless pedals are becoming increasingly common here.

The more casual kind of SPD shoes may be more practical for walking and
general use than you think, as well as making cycling more efficient and
comfortable.

Whether it be a five minute trip to the shops, or a longer ride, I'm very
glad of not having to do the "toe clip flip" any more, or else worry about
slipping off platform pedals. I like my Shimano shoes so much that I
sometimes put them on even when I'm not going to do any cycling at all!

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Membrane
('[email protected]') wrote:

> I'm considering getting these:
> Shimano RO85 shoes:
>
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=156&idproduct=13728
> Shimano R540 SPD-SL pedals:
>
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=102&idproduct=4263
> Shimano SPD-SL Cleats:
>
http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=121&idproduct=5648
>
> I don't know what "Floating mode"  or "Fixed mode" means for the cleats,
> if anyone can provide some guidance on that choice it would help.

I've used all the different Shimano road cleat systems, and didn't really
like any of them; I now have Look Keos on my road bike, and like them very
well. The basic Keo isn't expensive. Keo cleats are damaged easily by
walking on them, so it's important to get a pair of cleat covers (they
aren't expensive either).

Float is the amount your foot can move axially while clipped in. Zero float
is dodgy unless you really know what you're doing - you can damage your
knees. I use 'red' cleats (9 degrees of float); you can also get 'grey'
cleats with 4.5 degrees, and black which are fixed.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The trouble with Simon is that he only opens his mouth to change feet.
;; of me, by a 'friend'

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>,
[email protected] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On 16 May, 13:04, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Another thing you can assess when trying them is what walking is like in
>> them. If you never intend using the bike to go somewhere and then walk
>> around a bit it's not much of an issue, but if you quite like the idea
>> of doing something on a cycle outing /other/ than cycling then shoes you
>> can walk in make a lot of sense. Road racing shoes are more often pants
>> than not in this regard (and don't forget to assess this with a cleat
>> fitted!)
>
> What would you advise for the situation where cycling is a means of
> transport, rather than a leisure activity? The vast majority of my
> cycling involves spending very little time on the bike (typical
> examples- getting to work involves less than half an hour on the bike
> each way, going to the local shop or a meeting in the village: five
> minutes on the bike, going out cycling with the kids: pootling along
> for an hour or so, often on & off the bike). Even when I was cycle
> touring I would normally only be on the bike for five or six hours in
> the day, broken up with stops to look at stuff, eat etc.

I very frequently wear cleated shoes all day, whether on the bike or not.
Not road cleats, of course - but Like Peter Clinch I use Time ATACs on my
mountain bikes and on my utility bike, and I have two pairs of shoes with
ATAC cleats. They're fine to walk in, both indoors and out.

> I struggle to see "proper" cycling shoes and clipless pedals as
> appropriate for anything other than pretty committed leisure use (or
> professionals, of course), but I seem to be in a small and shrinking
> minority.
> Maybe it's the way I use my bike(s) that's getting increasingly
> uncommon?

I think even for the pure utility cyclist, one of the MTB type cleat
systems which are practical for walking in make sense. You are so much
faster and more efficient cycling with cleats.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists