To Much training in Hardest Zones Possible?

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM


This is my last post in this thread, as it is has been spoiled somewhat by those who feel threatened when their own opinions are challenged.

Again, if you would read and respond to things that are actually written, that'd go a long way. As it stands, you're replying to things you think are written or are simply imagining and are just derailing the entire discussion.

One of my first replies to you and you still haven't been able to grasp its meaning:



Quote:
Originally Posted by needmoreair .

This isn't a debate because you're not even replying to what I've written.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider
I didn't intend for this topic to drift on to me. I just wanted to chime in where I thought there was some negative tone about L4 training and if we get to share various opinions than mine is that L3/SST/L4 has a valid place for many of us. On several forums and the wattage list there are multitudes that train in these zones that do race and are and have been successful. So it is not about my testimony of its effectiveness.

There are hundreds if not thousands of cyclists that have trained this way and have claimed success. Just as there are many that also say the only way they have improved their FTP is by doing L5 intervals. Why both camps of training cannot accept that performance gains have been achieved by skinning the cat different without ongoing debates is beyond me. And generally those who prescribe to L5 only seem to rebuke the L4 people on forum discussions as if the L4 people never do L5 or greater.

From many of the posts that I have read of those that do race will switch to higher intensity as they approach their race season, which seem to be the Lydiard approach where one focuses on endurance because it is said harder to progress and then switch over to higher intensity because it progresses faster in terms of weeks. Or maybe my reading and comprehension skills really suck. But it seems to be an ongoing and sometimes harsh debate between the two camps of training.

I chose the path of L3/SST/L4 because it fits my schedule. I am a weightlifter first and foremost. My leg day is on Monday morning and this is equivalent to doing L7+ in how much damage it does and how much recovery time it takes. For me to lift and do L5+ intervals in the same week is impossible and stupid. I do well to get up into L4 with how much my legs hurt following leg day. For me I have no choice but to keep L3/SST/L4, but again my goals are completely different than 99% on cycling forums.

As I said before, for those on a time-limited schedule, to up their training load to a significant amount they will have to incorporate the L3/SST/L4 work you're doing. For those capable of doing 15+ hours a week a more polarized approach has to be utilized because you simply can't do the same percentage of L3/SST/L4 work that you'd be doing at 10 hours.

WillemJ went on this ridiculous, self-absorbed tangent decrying such work because he thinks you have to do more hours while being completely oblivious to the fact that many people simply cannot put in longer hours during the winter, if ever. And for those that can't, a different approach must be taken.

So you have to work within the parameters in which you're able. It may not be optimal, but we're not gearing up for the tour, right? So we make the most of what we can do.

If what you're doing is working and you're getting the work in that you want, then keep it up.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by needmoreair
As I said before, for those on a time-limited schedule, to up their training load to a significant amount they will have to incorporate the L3/SST/L4 work you're doing. For those capable of doing 15+ hours a week a more polarized approach has to be utilized because you simply can't do the same percentage of L3/SST/L4 work that you'd be doing at 10 hours.

I agree with this statement. In fact, I have a program that parses a ride into time or TSS by level and one of the reasons that I compute all ride stats both ways is because sometimes the cyclist is time-constrained (e.g., Felt and most of us) and sometimes the cyclist is TSS-constrained (e.g., someone who can train as many hours a day as they want).

BTW, when I studied the numbers over a long period of time, I was amazed at how much effort it takes to get a high percentage of L4+ time in a typical outdoor training ride. If I get an average of 50% or more L4+ (by time or TSS), I am thrilled.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider



My long distance comfort bike Quarq compact with 52/36 and 11-28 cassette for a vast range road gradients. Some of the courses I use have some really sharp rollers.
Because of weather I have been mainly on my road bike and yesterday I found out that I have lost some confidence in some fast technical descents. Two times yesterday I came of the aero tuck on two s-bends at 30 mph, whereas, I was getting rather comfortable staying tucked in aero blasting through those sections.

Oh well I just need to start getting more time on my comfort bike

Is that a Cobb saddle? I was thinking about the JOF55 but decided on an ISM Attack. Should be here in the next week. The no quibble returns policy may come in useful but I really hope I don't need it.

The wheels look fancy, what are they?

I've been thinking of getting a 52 or larger for the compact cranks on my 'comfort' bike (Ridley Dean RS) just because I feel like the bigger chain ring 'rolls' better.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970
Is that a Cobb saddle? I was thinking about the JOF55 but decided on an ISM Attack. Should be here in the next week. The no quibble returns policy may come in useful but I really hope I don't need it.

The wheels look fancy, what are they?

I've been thinking of getting a 52 or larger for the compact cranks on my 'comfort' bike (Ridley Dean RS) just because I feel like the bigger chain ring 'rolls' better.

That is a Cobb V-flow Plus and Flo wheels. The saddle has turned out to be good for my fit. Very comfortable sitting up or tucked. Feel like I lucked out as saddles go, but it helped having a good fitter.

It has become my comfort bike for the long haul self-sustained 100 mile routes. A pack mule of sorts with a touch of aero. (Now if I just had some aero qualities, but the way I am built I might as well be dragging a kite)

Having 3 - 26 oz bottles, two tubes, two air cartridges, mini tools on the bike. Phone and food in my pockets. I can easily get a 100 miles knocked out in a remote area without to much fear of being stranded. It is nice to use this as my distance bike because my training route is north/south and most of the time winds come up from the south so my return miles generally have a sustained headwind all the way back. Being tucked in aero sure helps reduce the beating and helps keep my TSS from going over 300 (most of the time). The TSS on my road bike even in the drops on this same route will typically go over 300 TSS pushing at a 0.75 IF, which I don't like because I usually train the next day as well. I can usually do this long route with two bottles on the road bike in the cooler temps.

Here is how the bike evolved for my solo timed distance goal.
Bike mechanic and fitter was a student of John Cobb of sorts. The bike was set up with a relaxed Ironman fit rather than a short TT aggressive fit.
http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/05/cannon-cyclery.html

Cee Gees Cushy pads are like having little couches for you arms. Nice for long distance.
http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/06/cee-gees-cushys-aerobar-pads.html

Flo 60's - alloy structure with a carbon fairing. I like having the metal braking surface and not too bad in crosswinds. Much cheaper than HED Jet 6. I upgraded the crank to Quarq when I got the wheel set.
http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/10/flo-wheel-initial-thoughts.html

Speedfil Z4 BTA / Garmin Edge mount move the bottle up and hidden behind my arms and yet the computer is in a perfect spot to easily monitor.
http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/09/speedfil-z4-bottle-cage.html

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

As I said before, for those on a time-limited schedule, to up their training load to a significant amount they will have to incorporate the L3/SST/L4 work you're doing. For those capable of doing 15+ hours a week a more polarized approach has to be utilized because you simply can't do the same percentage of L3/SST/L4 work that you'd be doing at 10 hours.

WillemJ went on this ridiculous, self-absorbed tangent decrying such work because he thinks you have to do more hours while being completely oblivious to the fact that many people simply cannot put in longer hours during the winter, if ever. And for those that can't, a different approach must be taken.

So you have to work within the parameters in which you're able. It may not be optimal, but we're not gearing up for the tour, right? So we make the most of what we can do.

If what you're doing is working and you're getting the work in that you want, then keep it up.

Many professionals make a comment about training. The comment invloves finishing a grand tour. It goes like this: finishing a grand tour changes a riders body.

As long as you have not put in long weeks of training - I mean 6-7 days of 5-6 hours on the bike (30-40 hours/week), you have no idea of the benefit of long hours.

One of the benefits is improved recovery. That means many people who have done long weeks find moving from 10 up to 15 hours a week does not require any decrease in intensity.

 

[swampy1970]

That's a similar "training schedule" to that used by endurance swimmers. Team Sky's coach used to be an endurance swimming coach. A correlation between the past couple of TdF wins and a new training schedule. Wiggo said he could never go through that 12 months again. Too hard, too many hours, too much time away from family.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Hi Guys,
Well its been a long winter mostly crappy for me. Had to move house and Power Meter broke, took an unbelievable 4 weeks for a replacement. During that time I pretty much just rode and felt quite good really did FTP intervals on TACX Ergo but it was over reading

Anyway got the new one back on and with everything that was going on only managed to ride 5 and 3 hours for a couple of weeks, pretty much had to rebuild my bike :/

So came out of that feeling terrible did some threshold tests and I'm way back down at 250w which is pretty much where I always seem to default to after a minor layoff (were talking 3-4 Days)

My question is: Is FTP something that really has to be in the bank for an extended period of time before you can just jump back on a bike and be as good as you were. I have hit 275-277 about 3 times now call them peaks if you will. Normally follows about 4-6 weeks of concerted training I work shifts so been falling tough with daylight and always end up with a week of finiding it hard to get out, all winter something has just come up then and I've found myself doing a poor week and I'm right down back at 250w again.

What have you guys experienced with this will I ever/were you ever able to overcome a certain figure that you now find is no hurdle at all no problem that maybe took 2-3 goes at.

I feel infinitely fitter in myself, I rode a 108 Miles with 10000ft of climbing the other day for the Strava Challange fresh as a daisy and decided to throw myself up a 2k feet climb after 90 something miles. Previously at 250w I couldn't even get up this! I've broken my entire power curve from 5 mins onwards from last year everything down to 1s sits a little higher but just those damn threshold numbers are not where I expected them to be to be honest. Im going to kick it over 10 Hours a week now the daylight is here and try and do at least 4 20 Min efforts through the week be that in 2x20s etc at 95%-100%. Any other tips or pep talks available? Im pretty damn demoralised really

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS
I feel infinitely fitter in myself, I rode a 108 Miles with 10000ft of climbing the other day for the Strava Challange fresh as a daisy and decided to throw myself up a 2k feet climb after 90 something miles. Previously at 250w I couldn't even get up this! I've broken my entire power curve from 5 mins onwards from last year everything down to 1s sits a little higher but just those damn threshold numbers are not where I expected them to be to be honest. Im going to kick it over 10 Hours a week now the daylight is here and try and do at least 4 20 Min efforts through the week be that in 2x20s etc at 95%-100%. Any other tips or pep talks available? Im pretty damn demoralised really

Go get in a race. Numbers are just numbers. What matters is how well you can utilize your power in real situations. You might just find that mental boost you need when going head to head with other people.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS
Hi Guys,
Well its been a long winter mostly crappy for me. Had to move house and Power Meter broke, took an unbelievable 4 weeks for a replacement. During that time I pretty much just rode and felt quite good really did FTP intervals on TACX Ergo but it was over reading

Anyway got the new one back on and with everything that was going on only managed to ride 5 and 3 hours for a couple of weeks, pretty much had to rebuild my bike :/

So came out of that feeling terrible did some threshold tests and I'm way back down at 250w which is pretty much where I always seem to default to after a minor layoff (were talking 3-4 Days)

My question is: Is FTP something that really has to be in the bank for an extended period of time before you can just jump back on a bike and be as good as you were. I have hit 275-277 about 3 times now call them peaks if you will. Normally follows about 4-6 weeks of concerted training I work shifts so been falling tough with daylight and always end up with a week of finiding it hard to get out, all winter something has just come up then and I've found myself doing a poor week and I'm right down back at 250w again.

What have you guys experienced with this will I ever/were you ever able to overcome a certain figure that you now find is no hurdle at all no problem that maybe took 2-3 goes at.

I feel infinitely fitter in myself, I rode a 108 Miles with 10000ft of climbing the other day for the Strava Challange fresh as a daisy and decided to throw myself up a 2k feet climb after 90 something miles. Previously at 250w I couldn't even get up this! I've broken my entire power curve from 5 mins onwards from last year everything down to 1s sits a little higher but just those damn threshold numbers are not where I expected them to be to be honest. Im going to kick it over 10 Hours a week now the daylight is here and try and do at least 4 20 Min efforts through the week be that in 2x20s etc at 95%-100%. Any other tips or pep talks available? Im pretty damn demoralised really

If you're not racing and don't have a specific goal (an event, not numbers on the power meter) then it can be hard to stay motivated.

If you do take some time off it's normal for everything to take a nose dive. I've found, being a 'slowtwitch' endurance guy that the high power, short interval efforts take the biggest hit whereas L2 stays fairly constant unless I take over a month off. L4 (threshold) will suffer. Expect it and don't let it get too you. Just keep riding and training and it'll come back. Don't try and do too much to get it back as training is a balance between stress (training, job and other life events) and rest.

What I found best for getting back into the groove of things is just go out and ride for a few hours, four times a week. Keep it tempo (L2 and some L3) and don't force it. Keep the pedals turning over nicely. You'll probably notice that after a couple of rides you'll feel better towards the end of the ride than you do at the start.

A 2,000ft pass? I though the highest road pass in Wales with the Bwlch-y-Groes at about 1,700ft?

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS
My question is: Is FTP something that really has to be in the bank for an extended period of time before you can just jump back on a bike and be as good as you were. I have hit 275-277 about 3 times now call them peaks if you will. Normally follows about 4-6 weeks of concerted training I work shifts so been falling tough with daylight and always end up with a week of finiding it hard to get out, all winter something has just come up then and I've found myself doing a poor week and I'm right down back at 250w again.

What have you guys experienced with this will I ever/were you ever able to overcome a certain figure that you now find is no hurdle at all no problem that maybe took 2-3 goes at.

With regards to loosing fitness - the top of the pyramid starts to disappear first. Anerobic capacity first, then the threshold starts to dip, and finally endurance goes. It's the biggest problem with the top heavy time crunch plans... a week or two off a classic training model is not disastrous but a week or two off an interval heavy time crunch plan and everything virtually disappears... "****". It's the whole reason peaking/tapering works: A rider can trim off the low end (thus recovering and finding form) but maintain (or increase) the intensity without an appreciable loss in endurance during those few weeks.

If you've been digging a nice big FTP hole for a few weeks with minimal days off and then take an easy week nice gains can springboard back, but two weeks off (and by "off" I mean the sporadic inconsistent riding you mentioned) it's not likely to come to where one once was without another ramp up. The speed of the return to the original peak will really depend on a riders age, how focused the ramp, and how serious recovery and nutrition are taken. But regardless of time off, my personal experience is that old peaks are much more easily reached than new ones.

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

If you're not racing and don't have a specific goal (an event, not numbers on the power meter) then it can be hard to stay motivated.

If you do take some time off it's normal for everything to take a nose dive. I've found, being a 'slowtwitch' endurance guy that the high power, short interval efforts take the biggest hit whereas L2 stays fairly constant unless I take over a month off. L4 (threshold) will suffer. Expect it and don't let it get too you. Just keep riding and training and it'll come back. Don't try and do too much to get it back as training is a balance between stress (training, job and other life events) and rest.

What I found best for getting back into the groove of things is just go out and ride for a few hours, four times a week. Keep it tempo (L2 and some L3) and don't force it. Keep the pedals turning over nicely. You'll probably notice that after a couple of rides you'll feel better towards the end of the ride than you do at the start.

A 2,000ft pass? I though the highest road pass in Wales with the Bwlch-y-Groes at about 1,700ft?

Cheers for the advice ill keep it in mind. I do find that I dont generally loose fitness and always hop back on and ride at the old intesities for long durations. Its the FTP efforts that really take a nose dive.

The road I'm referring to is practically uncovered in media, internet etc its also a private access path for electric Mountains (LLanberis) water supply at Marchlyn Mawr, it cuts off into two different directions once to an overflow drain and another to the actual reservoir.

http://app.strava.com/segments/5802398

There are 2 excellent roads in north wales this being one of them Dave Brailsford infact used it as his primary training while he was young. And the other is a Resorvoir in Bleanau Ffestiniog 52.980636, -3.990623 Nice collection of Hairpins going up to that one.

Not sure where you live but they are a couple of excellent climbs for some summer time fun in Snowdonia.

Originally Posted by danfoz

With regards to loosing fitness - the top of the pyramid starts to disappear first. Anerobic capacity first, then the threshold starts to dip, and finally endurance goes. It's the biggest problem with the top heavy time crunch plans... a week or two off a classic training model is not disastrous but a week or two off an interval heavy time crunch plan and everything virtually disappears... "****". It's the whole reason peaking/tapering works: A rider can trim off the low end (thus recovering and finding form) but maintain (or increase) the intensity without an appreciable loss in endurance during those few weeks.

If you've been digging a nice big FTP hole for a few weeks with minimal days off and then take an easy week nice gains can springboard back, but two weeks off (and by "off" I mean the sporadic inconsistent riding you mentioned) it's not likely to come to where one once was without another ramp up. The speed of the return to the original peak will really depend on a riders age, how focused the ramp, and how serious recovery and nutrition are taken. But regardless of time off, my personal experience is that old peaks are much more easily reached than new ones.

Thanks, I've been doing some looking back to my historical last October and as it was my first 6 months on a bike I would constantly go out to break PBs for about 6 months straight.
Gains would come quick and every month or so. I took a lazy week and I've noticed that my attitude completely changed. Because I felt I couldn't go back out and break the records it seems it broke everything that kept me getting better.

This week went out since its been a little warm inside for intervals and I can only do Intervals outside as hard as I can I'm terrible at pacing 90%-95% efforts outdoors so everything has been at ~100%. I think this is what really kicks my legs into life for me the 90% intervals on the Ergo has really not been doing much of anything :/