To Much training in Hardest Zones Possible?

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by smaryka

I just picked up on this line... which I thought was a weird way to express "if you have less time, do more intensity". You seemed to be saying "if you have more time you should still aim for the same workload but do it on less intensity" which is not the point at all. The point is getting as much workload as your time and body can handle. On a week where I have more hours to train, I don't just aim to do the same workload as on a week with fewer hours, I aim to do more...

It probably seems like splitting hairs to you, but other less-experienced cyclists may think they should be doing the same workload whether they ride 8 hours or 12 hours and that's completely misleading.

I probably just wrote it in a confusing way.

What I was intending to get across was the idea that you cannot do as much intensity when you're doing longer hours. You can't ride 25 hours a week with the same percentage of intensity as you could with 10 hours a week.

To expound on that, if the workload you can handle is, for example, (all arbitrary numbers here) 800 tss/week, then you can get that by doing 10 hours at a higher intensity or 20 at a lower intensity. You can still meet that 800 tss/week on 10 hours of very hard riding.

The workload you can handle is the workload you can handle. The less time you have, the more intensity you can get away with to up that workload. The more time you have, the less intensity necessary to top up that workload. Overdoing intensity on more hours will mess you up.

A new rider may not know what workload they can handle.

Regardless, the fact remains that a specific workload can be reached on 8 hours or 12 hours or 15 hours by changing the proportions of intensity. For the time-crunched rider seeking to hit that max workload, they're going to have to increase the amount of intensity they do. For the rider with an extra 5+ hours of week to ride, they're going to have to be more cognizant of the intensity they're doing in order to not overreach too much.

This is more in terms with a sustainable workload over time. If someone has a week of vacation and can go rack up 1200 tss or whatever, then that's more of a one-off thing that isn't repeatable for too many weeks.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

I probably just wrote it in a confusing way.

What I was intending to get across was the idea that you cannot do as much intensity when you're doing longer hours. You can't ride 25 hours a week with the same percentage of intensity as you could with 10 hours a week.

To expound on that, if the workload you can handle is, for example, (all arbitrary numbers here) 800 tss/week, then you can get that by doing 10 hours at a higher intensity or 20 at a lower intensity. You can still meet that 800 tss/week on 10 hours of very hard riding.

The workload you can handle is the workload you can handle. The less time you have, the more intensity you can get away with to up that workload. The more time you have, the less intensity necessary to top up that workload. Overdoing intensity on more hours will mess you up.

A new rider may not know what workload they can handle.

Regardless, the fact remains that a specific workload can be reached on 8 hours or 12 hours or 15 hours by changing the proportions of intensity. For the time-crunched rider seeking to hit that max workload, they're going to have to increase the amount of intensity they do. For the rider with an extra 5+ hours of week to ride, they're going to have to be more cognizant of the intensity they're doing in order to not overreach too much.

This is more in terms with a sustainable workload over time. If someone has a week of vacation and can go rack up 1200 tss or whatever, then that's more of a one-off thing that isn't repeatable for too many weeks.

Again, this is not a one size fits all and what works for you will not work for me.

IN MY SITUATION the workload thing is not a simple math proportion of intensity and time. Also, I ride with a few folks who put in 6 to 8 hours a week and they ride hard every ride they do into zone 4. First, they are not pleasant to ride with because the pace is ALWAYS uncomfortable and second at the races you never see them finish in the bunch, they always come in later on their own.

In my career, I travel 30% of my time, so some weeks I can get in 18 hours, some weeks I can only get in 6 hours. For a six hour week, that would be one 5 hour tempo ride on a Saturday or Sunday and two high cadence 1/2 hour interval sessions on the rollers.

IN MY CASE, high intensity is only possible if I am fully recovered, otherwise I don't even get close to my maximum heart rate. An high intensity FOR ME, is really really hard it means at least three recovery days afterwards. IMHO, the few folks I ride with that go hard every ride are not able to get to their true LT most of the time, but if this is different in your case, keep doing what you are doing, as again we are all different.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
Again, this is not a one size fits all and what works for you will not work for me.

To be perfectly frank, who cares?

You initially replied to me (and incorrectly replied to something I didn't even say). Not the other way around.

I'm not talking to you, I don't care about your training, and you are free to completely ignore everything I say. Again, I genuinely do not care what does or does not work for your training. I am not replying to this thread for your sake. This is not about you. Please understand that.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

To be perfectly frank, who cares?

You initially replied to me (and incorrectly replied to something I didn't even say). Not the other way around.

I'm not talking to you, I don't care about your training, and you are free to completely ignore everything I say. Again, I genuinely do not care what does or does not work for your training. I am not replying to this thread for your sake. This is not about you. Please understand that.

Sincerely sorry man! Seems like we struck a nerve there?
Some folks can't debate (what a forum is all about) when views differ, sorry once again.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

I probably just wrote it in a confusing way.

What I was intending to get across was the idea that you cannot do as much intensity when you're doing longer hours. You can't ride 25 hours a week with the same percentage of intensity as you could with 10 hours a week.

To expound on that, if the workload you can handle is, for example, (all arbitrary numbers here) 800 tss/week, then you can get that by doing 10 hours at a higher intensity or 20 at a lower intensity. You can still meet that 800 tss/week on 10 hours of very hard riding.

The workload you can handle is the workload you can handle. The less time you have, the more intensity you can get away with to up that workload. The more time you have, the less intensity necessary to top up that workload. Overdoing intensity on more hours will mess you up.

A new rider may not know what workload they can handle.

Regardless, the fact remains that a specific workload can be reached on 8 hours or 12 hours or 15 hours by changing the proportions of intensity. For the time-crunched rider seeking to hit that max workload, they're going to have to increase the amount of intensity they do. For the rider with an extra 5+ hours of week to ride, they're going to have to be more cognizant of the intensity they're doing in order to not overreach too much.

This is more in terms with a sustainable workload over time. If someone has a week of vacation and can go rack up 1200 tss or whatever, then that's more of a one-off thing that isn't repeatable for too many weeks.

While I might disagree with minor points in your presentation, I would suggest that you pay a bit more attention to your numbers.

8 hours a week at 100% FTP is hard. I might be able to do it by doing 2 40 minute sessions 6 days each week. But that is a lot of showers. On the other hand 15 hours a week at 75% is not so hard. I could do it by doing 2 75 minute sessions 6 days a week - 75 minutes out, a drink break, and 75 minutes back. I am sure that if you did the math relative to your abilities that you would see the issue.

1200 TSS is only 4 6 hour rides at 70%. That may not be the best race training, but people do it for the entire summer or longer. Perhaps you are too new of a rider to understand what workload others may be able to handle.

---

You wrote

"You can't ride 25 hours a week with the same percentage of intensity as you could with 10 hours a week."

While there are interpretations of your statement that are true, there are reasonable interpretations that are false.

I understand your statement to refer to percentage of FTP.

I make a similar statement in terms of percentage of critical power - the power you can sustain for the duration of your training session: One can ride 10 hours or 25 hours a week at the same percentage of intensity.

It obvious that the 2 statements make contadictory claims.

Take from it what you will.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by An old Guy

While I might disagree with minor points in your presentation, I would suggest that you pay a bit more attention to your numbers.

8 hours a week at 100% FTP is hard. I might be able to do it by doing 2 40 minute sessions 6 days each week. But that is a lot of showers. On the other hand 15 hours a week at 75% is not so hard. I could do it by doing 2 75 minute sessions 6 days a week - 75 minutes out, a drink break, and 75 minutes back. I am sure that if you did the math relative to your abilities that you would see the issue.

1200 TSS is only 4 6 hour rides at 70%. That may not be the best race training, but people do it for the entire summer or longer. Perhaps you are too new of a rider to understand what workload others may be able to handle.

I'd suggest your figure out the definition of the word "arbitrary" and how that applies to the numbers I used in my post.

And I'm a Cat 1, so not really all that new.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM
Sincerely sorry man! Seems like we struck a nerve there?
Some folks can't debate (what a forum is all about) when views differ, sorry once again.

This isn't a debate because you're not even replying to what I've written. And your use of terms like being unable to reach maximal heart rate and "really, really hard" intensity and all leads me to believe that you're not understanding the methodology and how power applies to that. The entire purpose of upper Z3/lowZ4 work on a low hours schedule is the repeatability and sustainability of a decent amount of work in a short amount of time. If you're taking three days to recover, then you're doing something completely different than what I'm writing about. I've already pointed that out and repeatedly alluded to low hour training yet you're fixated on using your own definitions of work to try and dismiss what I'm talking about.

For some reason you replied to every one of my posts as if I were writing out a training routine for you.

That wasn't the point and I tried to allude to that in earlier posts. Sorry to be overly harsh, but I honestly wasn't ever referring to any specific individual or how a plan would fit in their life.

 

[Felt_Rider]

needmoreair, FWIW - Maybe I am weird, but I understood your initial posts and also felt like you were saying the same thing as the others. I find myself in agreement with what you wrote.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

This isn't a debate because you're not even replying to what I've written. And your use of terms like being unable to reach maximal heart rate and "really, really hard" intensity and all leads me to believe that you're not understanding the methodology and how power applies to that. The entire purpose of upper Z3/lowZ4 work on a low hours schedule is the repeatability and sustainability of a decent amount of work in a short amount of time. If you're taking three days to recover, then you're doing something completely different than what I'm writing about. I've already pointed that out and repeatedly alluded to low hour training yet you're fixated on using your own definitions of work to try and dismiss what I'm talking about.

For some reason you replied to every one of my posts as if I were writing out a training routine for you.

That wasn't the point and I tried to allude to that in earlier posts. Sorry to be overly harsh, but I honestly wasn't ever referring to any specific individual or how a plan would fit in their life.

Originally Posted by needmoreair

This isn't a debate because you're not even replying to what I've written. And your use of terms like being unable to reach maximal heart rate and "really, really hard" intensity and all leads me to believe that you're not understanding the methodology and how power applies to that. The entire purpose of upper Z3/lowZ4 work on a low hours schedule is the repeatability and sustainability of a decent amount of work in a short amount of time. If you're taking three days to recover, then you're doing something completely different than what I'm writing about. I've already pointed that out and repeatedly alluded to low hour training yet you're fixated on using your own definitions of work to try and dismiss what I'm talking about.

For some reason you replied to every one of my posts as if I were writing out a training routine for you.

That wasn't the point and I tried to allude to that in earlier posts. Sorry to be overly harsh, but I honestly wasn't ever referring to any specific individual or how a plan would fit in their life.for

Apologies for not using all the latest buzz words (really, really hard instead of Z4), but I did this before Joe Friel wrote his first book and have figured out by now what works for me.

Joe is a number of years ahead of me, but we share the same experience when it comes to time spent in Z3/lowZ4.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/12/hard-easy-training.html

Good luck with your approach, give some thought to the difference in getting your leg muscles to adapt which takes years while your aerobic/anaerobic can come in a number of weeks and give some thought to what kind of training initiates the body to naturally produce higher testosterone levels, which with proper periodization accelerates form.

And again, apologies for all the frustration added to your posts.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

Apologies for not using all the latest buzz words (really, really hard instead of Z4), but I did this before Joe Friel wrote his first book and have figured out by now what works for me.

Joe is a number of years ahead of me, but we share the same experience when it comes to time spent in Z3/lowZ4.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/12/hard-easy-training.html

Good luck with your approach, give some thought to the difference in getting your leg muscles to adapt which takes years while your aerobic/anaerobic can come in a number of weeks and give some thought to what kind of training initiates the body to naturally produce higher testosterone levels, which with proper periodization accelerates form.

And again, apologies for all the frustration added to your posts.

But that's the issue, here. You're totally missing what Z4 is, especially lower Z4. Z4 isn't really, really hard. The middle of Z4 is about what you could hold for an hour in a race or motivated attempt. From your posts I take it you're training by HR whereas I am referring to power. Training by HR has its own limitations and all ( and I'm not even sure that you're differentiating between max hr and lt hr), but if you're clueless about power this is really going to go over your head here. If a rider is doing 30 mins of 92% FTP (this is low Z4) then their heart rate is not going to be anywhere near their threshold hr, much less their max hr. For the majority of the interval, it's not even going to be at 92%. And if this is the second or third day in a block, it may not ever reach 92%. So this really has nothing to do with your "really, really hard" intensity because it's not really, really hard. Not at all. And because it's not "really, really hard", you can do a lot of it and you can do it fairly often.

And listen, you keep going on about this being my approach and wishing me luck and all this stuff and I don't know why. I haven't said a thing about what exactly I do. I'm putting across a generally accepted base/build methodology that many time-constrained riders have had success with. You're constantly turning this into a "my training versus your training" when that isn't the case.

I'm very familiar with Friel but don't follow his methodologies for various reasons. Regardless, if you follow Friel then follow that. Understand, however, that Friel is not the only player in the game and there are various ways to train.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider
needmoreair, FWIW - Maybe I am weird, but I understood your initial posts and also felt like you were saying the same thing as the others. I find myself in agreement with what you wrote.

Thanks. I think sometimes I get too long-winded and muddle things up a bit, however.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by needmoreair


Thanks. I think sometimes I get too long-winded and muddle things up a bit, however.

Maybe that's why I understood your post.

Except for this one, all my posts are excessively long-winded and typically muddled

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

But that's the issue, here. You're totally missing what Z4 is, especially lower Z4. Z4 isn't really, really hard.

In accepted semantics, (Allen and Coggan) power zone Z4 is 90% to 104% FTPw, if that is not really, really hard for you, either you have never reached your true potential doing a carefully prepared FTP test, or you are more gifted than most.

Over and out.

 

[needmoreair]

Originally Posted by WillemJM

In accepted semantics, (Allen and Coggan) power zone Z4 is 90% to 104% FTPw, if that is not really, really hard for you, either you have never reached your true potential doing a carefully prepared FTP test, or you are more gifted than most.

Over and out.

No, ftp is not really, really hard for me for 20-30 mins. And 90% of FTP, which is what I've continually been talking about, is even less hard. In fact, I can do it every day. How is doing 20-40 minutes at an intensity 10% less than what you could do for an hour really, really hard?

And even more so, how on Earth is it so hard as to necessitate 3 days of recovery?

I've been spit out the back of echelons in Europe on a weekly basis. My concept of "really, really hard" is just that. Bulging eyeballs and drool flying out of my mouth. A Z3/Z4 workout is not in that realm.

Rather than question my ftp and my ability to perform Z3-Z4/SS workouts (and the abilities of dozens, if not hundreds, of other cyclists and triathletes that post about doing similar workouts), I'd question your own numbers.

This isn't an N=1 scenario and you certainly don't need to take my word for it. If you're familiar with Allen and Coggan, then you might be familiar with their workouts and training theories. Open the book and look at the schedules. Look at the workouts. Google the "wattage" group and read about it there. Go to slowtwitch.com and read about it there. Read what Coggan says in posts in those groups.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

especially lower Z4. Z4 isn't really, really hard.

If a rider is doing 30 mins of 92% FTP (this is low Z4) then their heart rate is not going to be anywhere near their threshold hr, much less their max hr. For the majority of the interval, it's not even going to be at 92%.

You are correct about lower Z4 for 30 minutes. It should not be that hard.

It is unclear if your heart percentages are based on LT or max on the top end and resting or 0 on the bottom end. But using LT and resting at 90% FTP my heart rate is only 75-85% for 25 out of 31 minutes - it takes about 6 minutes to get up there.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by Subliminal-SS
Touble is at the moment I'm also Anemic since I had a stomach Ulser 4 months ago and my blood tests revealed I have no iron stores. I'm working on that with a doctor though. Just makes it tough as I may be getting no gains at all but might just be getting my blood back healthy.

So, did you ever get the anemia resolved?

 

[Subliminal-SS]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

So, did you ever get the anemia resolved?

I think so, I piled on the Iron tablets morning day and night which brought it up to an improved position a couple of months ago. Haven't had a fresh test recently though but I'm going to get one done at the end of the month.

Plus don't know if I have an inability to process the iron at a "normal rate" so therefore need to be on supplements but well see if its dropped again this time around as I've stopped the tablets now since the last test. Way I see it is if its dropped again I can process (because I was able to with the lots of iron diet) ill need to stay on the off the shelf tabs.

Either way FTP is heading north still even though I stopped so I must be still getting a little bit better.


In all this too-ing and fro-ing, I think the best thing said (don't recall who), with the benefit of a bit of hindsight from my perspective and from where I am at the minute is to make sure long rides are in the winter diet.

Vary the intensity according to the time allocated. That just seems to be an unwritten thing like don't sprint a marathon. (Whether through the experience of it or not. Remember to not wrap your kid in bubble wrap or they'll never know how hard a table is...)

Its one thing doing whatever degrees of intensity at and about the 1-3 our mark but. I think I need to work on is leaving my nose in the cold for prolonged periods of time 4-6 hours. For me those are the real challanges of winter and I really feel it when I do one once in a blue moon.

Of course I'm not trying to be a 2 hour TT specialist....

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by needmoreair

No, ftp is not really, really hard for me for 20-30 mins. And 90% of FTP, which is what I've continually been talking about, is even less hard. In fact, I can do it every day. How is doing 20-40 minutes at an intensity 10% less than what you could do for an hour really, really hard?

And even more so, how on Earth is it so hard as to necessitate 3 days of recovery?

Again I agree and my personal description of L4 would be "challenging" instead of really really hard. Last week I did 3 consecutive days of L4 and in several of those sessions was above 95%, one I hit 98% and one I hit 100%. All were just 20 minute intervals and the reason I went up high into L4 is that I train on eMotion rollers and though my target it 91% I have to go above that because the movement of the bike on the rollers does not give me as smooth of an effort like a bike locked into a trainer.

The first image is of the total session and you can see that it is hard for me to keep it steady on the targeted 91% so I am trying this year to up my game and yet I was able to recover from these shorter sessions (20 minutes) from day to day. When I go to longer duration like 30 minutes or greater I will not try to hit as high so that it does not mess up the next day's intensity. On the second interval you can see though I was trying to hit 90% I have more time below the target and that interval parsed into L3 at 87% of FTP.



Here is a close up of the first segment and it doesn't look too bad. In fact to me while I am in the session on the rollers it actually feels quite smooth. I have my display setting for a smoothing factor of 3s and it jumping up and down above and below my target. Training on the rollers is a bit of a challenge, but still I like the setup.



My point is that even though I am actually going up higher into L4 so far at just 20 minutes I am recovering okay. I am focusing on this year because too much of my time parsed into sustained L3 last year and I was somewhat stagnant all last year in progress. I wanted to try to bump it up a little. Worst case I get a little worn out and need to back off a smidge.

 

[WillemJM]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

Again I agree and my personal description of L4 would be "challenging" instead of really really hard. Last week I did 3 consecutive days of L4 and in several of those sessions was above 95%, one I hit 98% and one I hit 100%. All were just 20 minute intervals and the reason I went up high into L4 is that I train on eMotion rollers and though my target it 91% I have to go above that because the movement of the bike on the rollers does not give me as smooth of an effort like a bike locked into a trainer.

The first image is of the total session and you can see that it is hard for me to keep it steady on the targeted 91% so I am trying this year to up my game and yet I was able to recover from these shorter sessions (20 minutes) from day to day. When I go to longer duration like 30 minutes or greater I will not try to hit as high so that it does not mess up the next day's intensity. On the second interval you can see though I was trying to hit 90% I have more time below the target and that interval parsed into L3 at 87% of FTP.



Here is a close up of the first segment and it doesn't look too bad. In fact to me while I am in the session on the rollers it actually feels quite smooth. I have my display setting for a smoothing factor of 3s and it jumping up and down above and below my target. Training on the rollers is a bit of a challenge, but still I like the setup.



My point is that even though I am actually going up higher into L4 so far at just 20 minutes I am recovering okay. I am focusing on this year because too much of my time parsed into sustained L3 last year and I was somewhat stagnant all last year in progress. I wanted to try to bump it up a little. Worst case I get a little worn out and need to back off a smidge.

Work on your cadence, you probably have an extra 50w right there if you do a 6-8 week program focused only on getting it above 100RPM at FTP eventually. Do more research on latest findings about long versus short intervals. Enough secrets shared....
But then, what do I know, some folks here are wiser than Joe Friel?
I had to think about defining "really really hard" These sessions are actually not challenging, they are "Fu&**, F^*ing really really really hard and need long recovery periods to build more watts available with the next session.

 

[swampy1970]

An extra 50w for just getting over 100rpm in less than 2 months. You should pass that info along to Tony Martin so he no longer needs to smash 58x11 to decimate all and sundry in TT's