If TSS is equal for two rides, how much does IF effect NP?



Originally Posted by tomUK .

Wow - Those are some impressive numbers! I assume this was spread over two (or three days) and not a case of start riding at 6 am in the morning and finish at 3am the following day?

I guess I want to taylor my plan to finishing a ride of 60 miles (ish), feeling good. If that means holding someone else's wheel, I'm fine with that. I don't want to make a TT out of 60 miles. I guess what I would like to do is suck someones wheel doing 20mph (about 150W I'm guessing) for 60 miles. What sort of training schedule would you suggest for this assuming you have 4-5 days a week to throw at this?
Friday evening 8pm start, riding through the night until 9:45pm-ish the following evening (25hrs 44 minutes including rest stops, "nature breaks", mechanical issues, punctures etc with 22:33 on the bike). Interesting out and back route starting in Davis, CA at about 80ft above sea level to the dam at Antelope Lake about 100 miles northwest of Oroville, CA at just over 5,000ft...

Sure the numbers (TSS and KJ) might be impressive, they are just that, numbers. Personally, I'll remember the mist coming off the mountain rivers as the sun was coming up rather than the TSS and the subsequent hand/arm pain I've been dealing the last few days rather than the KJ total. Training wise it probably won't do a thing to make me a faster ride - but it was quite an experience and much fun, if your idea of fun is riding a 35lb bike up a 8 mile hill at 1am///

If you can ride for a few hours then with a slight reduction in effort (aka wise pacing) and a good feeding plan you're limited more mentally than physically. Other than a few long rides this year that were part of this Brevet series (200, 300 and 400km) my longest ride was 2.5 hours. The 600km was the final ride in the series and the last of the qualification rides should I wish to ride the longer 1000km and 1200km rides.

I've noticed a few threads that you've started and I seem to get a common element of lack of energy and what to do for training so, with that being said...

My basic rule of training: Always have a purpose for a ride and somewhere there must be an element of "fun."

A specific ride might not be fun but the end goal must be. For me that might be going out on a 100F day and doing hill repeats on a darned steep hill (not fun) with the end goal of doing a hill climb or big ride like the Death Ride (fun). Back when I raced getting 2 hours in during an English winter at almost best 50 mile TT effort wasn't fun but the effects it had on racing later in the year were. If you lose the element of fun it becomes drab. If it becomes drab you don't go out and ride - or you start looking for "tricks" to improve rather than well planned training.

There's two ways to go about finishing a ride of about 60 miles. Get some 2 to 3 hour rides in - most likely at the weekend and do some faster, shorter rides in during the week. You don't need to turn rides into a TT all the time during training. During the longer rides you can take a route that you enjoy and ride it at L2/L3, which will allow you to still take in the sights, sounds and smells and if there's a point of interest (as I like to call them) such as a small hill that takes a couple of minutes or a nice stretch of very well surfaced flat road then use it for a "fun" hard effort if you feel like it. Same deal with the shorter midweek efforts - go out and ride at L2/L3 to warm up and if you have a few sections of road that will give you say 15 to 25 minutes honest effort (high L3/low L4) then use those. If you know the section of road gives you enough time at the required effort, you don't need to stick to a specific 20 minutes exactly - especially if the thought of getting to "point x" gives you a bigger carrot to chase... rather than chasing time to the finish. In the grand scheme of things, doing a motivated and fun 17 minutes will likely be better than a down trodden 20 minutes precisely. To go faster you either need to increase power or reduce aero drag and/or weight depending on the terrain you're riding in. Sorting out both power and aero is prefferable and becoming comfortable whilst riding in the drops is (a) more aero and (b) gives you an extra hand position.

Unless you're blessed with way above average natural talent, there's no escaping the fact that you need a good solid base of fitness to work from. I would start with the longer rides and ease into them. L2 - don't worry if you wander off into L1 or L3 from time to time. Find the point where you bonk - ie feel weak, grumpy etc or just become overly fatigued despite feeding well before and during the ride. Use this as a baseline ride and knock off a small amount of the time - say 10%. Go out, ride, have fun and enjoy it and every few weeks try that baseline ride. If it becomes easy then increase the duration. After a few weeks of L2 and L3 start incorporating more "sweet spot" work. Go out and ride as often as you can but there's certainly no need to smash your head in during every ride and turn yourself into a slave for the numbers. If you become comfortable riding a few hours at L2 within a few weeks then progress to shorter rides midweek and carry on with more of the same at the weekends, otherwise keep banging out the L2 with some L3 until you're good for a few hours and have a good base of fitness to work from. Not only does this allow you to work harder when you do get to the L4 work - but it'll likely mean that the gains from L4 and L5 don't go straight down the toilet when you stop training at that intensity.

As the rides progress in distance then increase the amount of food you eat. Aim for about 200 to 250Kcal per hour total - inc drinks and solid food or gels. Try a little more from time to time - note how you react to different foods or drinks on the bike. From the sounds of things you don't need to lose weight so err on the pre ride meal, heck most of the meals, being a little larger than what you're eating now. To me it sounds like your diet "may 'be a bit shy on total calories. I say "may' with a pinch of salt (iodine enritched). Eating and drinking on a bike under effort isn't a completely natural thing - it's something that you have to get used to and train your body to do well under effort so doing it on L2 rides is the place to start.

As for foods - mix it up and don't be afraid to try something different. Bananas are a common favorite for a reason - easy to eat and biodegradable packaging ;) I dig pb&j sammiches and oddball stuff like roast beef or ham in a small tortilla - with a bit of tomato (without the middle part because it gets to soggy) and Luna bars (soft, moist and very tasty.) Sure Luna bars are quote "designed for women" but why should they have the best tasting and easiest to chew bar on the planet? The Lemonzest and Chocolate Peppermint.../img/vbsmilies/smilies/drool.gif Don't forget that you'll likely get some calories from drinks too. Experiment with different brands - the one that you should use is the one that makes you want to drink it and doesn't give you an upset stomach when riding hard.
 
Thank you for the very useful info, I really appreciate it all. I think you might have hit it on the head - much of the problem is lack of nutrition (calories) and bordem (or mental staleness).

Here is a question for you; on saturday i did a 35 mile ride (1hr 54min). It totally 1276 joules, NP 176 and ave Pwr 165. Before it i ate a bowl of oatmeal with a few prunes thrown in (probably about 250 calories total - 1hr before). In addition I threw down a coffee and took two medium sized baked potatoes with me. I started eating about 300 Kjoules in and by the time I got home I had eaten about one-and-a-half of the potatoes and drunk about 8oz of gatorade plus about 50 oz of water. Would you think this was enough?

Also, how do you train in the heat? This is a surely a factor. Trying to knock out a L3/L4 in 95 degree heat and 45% humidity is much harder than in 65 degree weather. My rides in the week are after work (95 degree heat) whereas my weekend ride are in the morning (75 degree at the start).

Thanks for all the help.
 
Personally, I've never thought of eating spuds on the go whilst on a bike. After a ride or at a rest stop they're ace but when riding... Hmmmm. I couldn't even guess what an averaged sized tater is worth in calories... I like Hammer drinks, HEED for shorter rides, Perpetuem for longer but if you're in the UK try PSP22. I used to use that stuff all the time when I lived in England, it's a bit bland but bland is good when you're going hard and it's very effective. From what I remember you moved somewhere warmer didn't you - or am I thinking of someone else?

It's not just about what you eat right before a ride. If you're riding regularly, the best time to replenish you glycogen stores is immediately after a ride - or within an hour. I normally give myself 30 minutes max but you might have upto 90 minutes. If you've been going hard then, in simple terms, the body will more readily process carbs and store as glycogen. If I'm riding mid week, I try to have my evening meal fairly soon after finishing the ride just for this very reason. Same deal with the longer weekend rides - lunch is served when I get home. :) But you sound like you're not exactly packing

As for the heat. It's always harder when it's really hot - but if I know the event that I'm riding in is likely to be "fry your face off" hot then I'm going to have to do some training in that weather. Note "some" training. Training can be stressfull enough as it is and adding to that can push you over the fine line if you're training hard. A few years ago I did the Everest Challenge (a race that gains 29,000ft in elevation over 6 climbs in two days, hence the name) - not a million miles away from Death Valley - you can see the hills surrounding Death Valley from the last climb on day 2 of the event. To say it was toasty would be an understatement. 95F at just over 10,000ft... over 100F in the valley at 4,000ft and on a day where you have two climbs going from 4,000 to 10,000ft over 20 miles it makes things hard. Lots of DNF's and I can say that I don't think I've climbed hills worse - ever... but part of that was, for that particular year, me not going out and training in the heat. The heat... and the chaffing. Ouch. When training in really hot weather I'll take 4 large 25oz insulated bottles with me and if I don't care how far I'm through the session when I get down to 1/2 empty on the last bottle - I turn around and head home as my local big hill is about 30 minutes from home. As with all "training", you're supposed to be out there to improve and if conditions are such that a session is going to be detrimental then it's not worth it. There'll be times where you have several L4 intervals planned and Sundays ride just killed you. Give it an honest warmup and ease into the effort and try to get to the wattage range for L4. If you honestly can't get there - even if you try and ramp it up over 10 minutes then can the session. Gear down, spin the legs and smell the flowers - it'll be as good for the head as it is the legs and when you get home take an honest look at the past few weeks of training, ask yourself if there's been any other factors like work stress, lack of sleep, holidays etc etc and see if what Performance Manager says in WKO+ (if you use it) is accurate with what you're feeling. You might initially think "oh ****, I lost a session - let the panic begin!" but it's a reference point - not the end of the world. I find it useful in such situation to try and remember what happened that was different and make notes within WKO and then keep adding notes for a while afterwards.
 
I'm told that potatoes are good because they naturally have high potassium content. Add salt to them and your got a pretty good electrolyte replacement. I *think* there is about 160 calories in a medium potato.

You are right, I'm from the south of England and have lived in Texas for 5 years now. It can play a little havoc on training as doing intervals in the 95+ degree heat just takes it completely out of you. I'm training for the Hotter 'n' Hell in August and i'm trying my best to get out in the heat a little.

I never meant for this to turn into a nutrition discussion but from what I can tell, I think this may well be where my issue is. I've heard lots of good things about hammer nutrition and how using there stuff means you can possibly go beyond the 250-300 cal/hour 'limit'. I was reading a couple of nutrition/hydration articles and it left me thinking...

They suggest no more than 24 oz/hour of water (18 for a small athlete - I'm 150lbs, 5'11" tall). Anything more and they say your body can't process this and you also end up diluting the sodium content of your blood which is (they say maybe) worse than dehydration. Also it is mentioned that the rule for water/calories/electrolytes is to aim for 40% replacement. It is impossible to replace 100% of this during the ride and doing so is detrimental.

I'm looking for any ideas and great fully appreciate them.

From what Stevel is saying ref the table it appears I might be lacking muscle glycogen before I even start out. It is my understanding that the liver can store about 100g worth of glycogen and that the brain uses about 10grams/hour. After a nights sleep this would suggest empty liver stores. I believe the muscle glycogen remains largely intact during the night, assuming it was full when you went to bed. What sort of calories are you using prior to your rides?

Thanks everyone.

Swampy - do you ever get down this way? Would love to ride with you sometime.
 
Originally Posted by tomUK .

From what Stevel is saying ref the table it appears I might be lacking muscle glycogen before I even start out. It is my understanding that the liver can store about 100g worth of glycogen and that the brain uses about 10grams/hour. After a nights sleep this would suggest empty liver stores. I believe the muscle glycogen remains largely intact during the night, assuming it was full when you went to bed. What sort of calories are you using prior to your rides?
I generally have a fairly high carb diet, I certainly don't make any effort at all to avoid carbs. I find that my limit is consistent with that table in that if I do a hard ride without consuming anything during the ride, it takes 2.5-3 hours for my performance to fall off a cliff in a fairly short period of time. If doing a ride early in the morning I'd probably just have a bowl of muesli a couple of hours before riding. If riding later in the day I'd just eat whatever I normally eat during the day. If I were going to "top up" with something shortly before a ride, then I find something like chocolate milk is good for providing energy without making me feel full. If I ever have to ride REALLY early, e.g. there is a local time trial that starts at 6am and I'm not going to get up at 4am to eat a bowl of muesli first, so I just get up 30 mins before and drink some chocolate milk.
 
Originally Posted by acoggan .


Wrong (again). What I have said is that TSS is predictive of glycogen utilization, even though it was not deliberately designed to be. There's nothing contradictory about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by An old Guy .

TSS is a fraudulant idea. So is NP, IF and all of the other related concepts


Nothing fraudulent about it in the least.
We have gone through this before. I have used your exact words and have given references to documents with you listed as author. You should be ashamed.

This thread is not about you.
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .


We have gone through this before. I have used your exact words and have given references to documents with you listed as author. You should be ashamed.

This thread is not about you.
You are just a tedious irrelevant troll. Fortunately most are simply ignoring your posts, which is a smart move on their part.
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .


We have gone through this before. I have used your exact words and have given references to documents with you listed as author. You should be ashamed.
No, you have not used my exact words, as anyone who cares to read can verify for themselves. I therefore have nothing of which to be ashamed.
 
Taking quotes, real or imagined, out of context does not make a valid argument; AOG you have displayed a fundamentally flawed understanding of Dr. Coggan's terms and the English language in general. Personally I don't tolerate milk before or during a ride, or juices with much acid fwiw. If I have to ride early without time to get a full meal a bagel or banana and a pepsi usually work.
 
tomUK said:
I'm told that potatoes are good because they naturally have high potassium content.  Add salt to them and your got a pretty good electrolyte replacement.  I *think* there is about 160 calories in a medium potato.   You are right, I'm from the south of England and have lived in Texas for 5 years now.  It can play a little havoc on training as doing intervals in the 95+ degree heat just takes it completely out of you.  I'm training for the Hotter 'n' Hell in August and i'm trying my best to get out in the heat a little.  I never meant for this to turn into a nutrition discussion but from what I can tell, I think this may well be where my issue is.  I've heard lots of good things about hammer nutrition and how using there stuff means you can possibly go beyond the 250-300 cal/hour 'limit'.  I was reading a couple of nutrition/hydration articles and it left me thinking... They suggest no more than 24 oz/hour of water (18 for a small athlete - I'm 150lbs, 5'11" tall).  Anything more and they say your body can't process this and you also end up diluting the sodium content of your blood which is (they say maybe) worse than dehydration.  Also it is mentioned that the rule for water/calories/electrolytes is to aim for 40% replacement.  It is impossible to replace 100% of this during the ride and doing so is detrimental.   I'm looking for any ideas and great fully appreciate them.   From what Stevel is saying ref the table it appears I might be lacking muscle glycogen before I even start out.  It is my understanding that the liver can store about 100g worth of glycogen and that the brain uses about 10grams/hour.  After a nights sleep this would suggest empty liver stores.  I believe the muscle glycogen remains largely intact during the night, assuming it was full when you went to bed.  What sort of calories are you using prior to your rides? Thanks everyone. Swampy - do you ever get down this way?  Would love to ride with you sometime.
I rarely make it out to Texas and when info I'm either buying cars or visiting my in-laws there... Where in the near 1000 mile wide state are you?
 
Per your last post tom:

I think it would be best to keep things really simple.

Make a note of everything you eat and drink and make a note of how many KJ's you expend per ride.
 
Originally Posted by acoggan .


No, you have not used my exact words, as anyone who cares to read can verify for themselves. I therefore have nothing of which to be ashamed.
Originally Posted by quenya .

Taking quotes, real or imagined, out of context does not make a valid argument; AOG you have displayed a fundamentally flawed understanding of Dr. Coggan's terms and the English language in general.
In a recent thread on this issue Mr. Coggan said that his statements relating glycogen depletion/utilization and TSS appeared only in one place and were in error (my word not his. I am not interested doing work for free.). Anyone interested can find that thread on this site.
 
Originally Posted by An old Guy .



In a recent thread on this issue Mr. Coggan said that his statements relating glycogen depletion/utilization and TSS appeared only in one place and were in error (my word not his).
I said no such thing, so stop lying about it.
 
Originally Posted by tomUK .

I've been cycling for 15 years. 'seriously' for 8-10 years. I'm 37. back about 9 years ago I had an FTP of 280. These days I probably am somewhere between 200-220. however, I actually train more and seem to get less results.
I'm coming in way late on this topic, but based on the above I think you likely have something very wrong with you. I would go see a doctor, and if he can't find anything I'd go see another one. THe proof is in those numbers (assuming they are correct). Given your training load (i.e., very low), you shouldn't have lost anything noticeable since your peak.
 
Originally Posted by acoggan .


I said no such thing, so stop lying about it.
The correct word is "wrote."

---

There are several peer reviewed papers relating glucose to total calorie consumption to heart rate (LT) based efforts. One can do a little bit of math and come up with glucose consumption based on heart rate (LT). A bit more math and one has glucose consumption as a function of power (FTP). Some omore math gives glucose utilization/depletion as a function of power (FTP). Not really hard math.

Perhaps you have a student who is willing to take your abuse and do the work for you.

You are still a fraud.
 
An Old Guy's posts should all be prefaced with NSFW! I've actually laughed out loud reading some of them. "the correct word is wrote" comic genius!   AOG, do you realize you typed "said" in the post Dr. Coggan was replying to.  Holy Lord!  Good stuff.   And, the 'not really hard math' comment from a guy who can't calculate TSS without Dave Ryan having to type it out for him, which was not a typo, but rather a hilarious fundamental mis-understanding of the concept and, who STILL after dozens of posts in several threads simply doesn't understand the concepts of FTP or NP (and the tools derived from it TSS, ATL, CTL, TSB) but, claims Dr. Coggan is a fraud because he's mathematically disproved TSS with an 'easy' workout protocol that is impossible to produce empirically. AOG, you should really take your act on the road.  Your proof that  Dr. Coggan's tools are fraudulent is broken down to this statement; I can generate significantly more power for periods of time equal to and greater than one hour than I am capable of generating for one hour. So who then is really the fraud?
 
http://www.buybeatsbydre.com
If one wants to get answers to the questions you ask, you need to ignore those metrics.

Can a low effort high duration workout be equivalent to a high effort low duration workout? Certainly. But NP and TSS are the wrong measures to use to determine if the workouts are equivalent.