Interbike

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Nothing really new I saw except a $7000 carbon frame built like a
$1500 Calfee Luna....plus lots of other carbon. Do ya suppose Ben
recognizes I can build a Parlee bicycle with Record, complete with
pedals for the price of his frame???

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame
makers offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well.
Perhaps those that have their basket filled with carbon eggs need to
recognize a flood of carbon and a rising popularity with older
materials...who knows. As the rider gets older, and wants to stay or
comeback into the riding market, they 'may' want the latest or they
may want something perceived as more long lasting. Our sale of
titanium(Moots) doubled in 2005....

Did you see a new product called Ibike? It's a Power Meter or rather a Power
Estimator. Supposedly very interesting especially the pricing 😉
There's been a lot of discussions about it on several Forums but I still
haven't talked to anybody that's seen the product.
http://www.ibikesports.com/

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame makers
offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well.

Were there nice affordable titanium frames? Did Pegoretti have nice new
frames as well?

Greetings, Derk

Quoted message said:

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame makers
offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well. Perhaps
those that have their basket filled with carbon eggs need to recognize
a flood of carbon and a rising popularity with older materials...who
knows. As the rider gets older, and wants to stay or comeback into the
riding market, they 'may' want the latest or they may want something
perceived as more long lasting. Our sale of titanium(Moots) doubled in
2005....

But what you're not mentioning is that most Ti bike companies were showing
full-carbon framesets under their names (usually built offshore). The
"rising popularity with older materials" is most likely not statistically
valid, but they're more obvious because they stand out from the crowd.

But you didn't mention Calfee's Bamboo frames. Why not? Scared that they'll
catch on before you get your own? I'm sure Trek engineers are feverishly at
work trying to come up with their own version (complete with appropriate
acronym).

Nor did you mention the painted ladies... (where the Marzocchi girls there?
Didn't see them).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

I can't see how this would work as well as any of the current devices. It
can provide good numbers under idea conditions, but under conditions less
than ideal, the numbers could be way off.

e.g. Riding into a constant headwind on flat ground with zero acceleration,
where you sit strait up and the go into an aero tuck on your aero bars. How
would the device know that the wind resistance has changed?

e.g. You calibrate the device with tires inflated to 120 psi. Later you ride
with the tires at 80 psi. Rolling resistance is up. How does the device know
that?

e.g. You ride a constant speed on new pavement that is extremely smooth,
then transition to a area of poor pavement. Rolling resistance is up. How
does the device know that?

e.g. You ride your bike on rollers or a trainer. How does this calculate the
power?

The product description should be rephrased to:

Employing innovative sensor technologies developed for the aerospace and
automotive industries, the iBike Pro offers accuracy comparable to the
highest-priced power meters, UNDER IDEAL CONDITIONS, ACTUALLY USER
EXPERIENCE MAY VARY.

This product claims to be developed by engineers:

"And as experienced electronics and software engineers, we knew we could
find a better way. We did."

But more likely the product was dreamt up buy marketing people. True
engineers would not release a product that misleads the public and doesn't
work in real life conditions.

cel

"Per Elmsäter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Nothing really new I saw except a $7000 carbon frame built like a
$1500 Calfee Luna....plus lots of other carbon. Do ya suppose Ben
recognizes I can build a Parlee bicycle with Record, complete with
pedals for the price of his frame???

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame
makers offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well.
Perhaps those that have their basket filled with carbon eggs need to
recognize a flood of carbon and a rising popularity with older
materials...who knows. As the rider gets older, and wants to stay or
comeback into the riding market, they 'may' want the latest or they
may want something perceived as more long lasting. Our sale of
titanium(Moots) doubled in 2005....

Did you see a new product called Ibike? It's a Power Meter or rather a

Power

Quoted message said:

Estimator. Supposedly very interesting especially the pricing 😉
There's been a lot of discussions about it on several Forums but I still
haven't talked to anybody that's seen the product.
http://www.ibikesports.com/

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

Per Elmsäter wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Did you see a new product called Ibike? It's a Power Meter or rather a Power
Estimator. Supposedly very interesting especially the pricing 😉
There's been a lot of discussions about it on several Forums but I still
haven't talked to anybody that's seen the product.
http://www.ibikesports.com/

I wasn't at Interbike, and haven't seen the product, but only looked at
their website. It seems to be able to measure headwind at the front of
the device, and acceleration along the bike's forward/backward axis, as
well as bike speed and atmospheric pressure. It should be able to give a
much better power estimate than something like the Ciclo Sport Hac4, but
not nearly as good as true power meters like a PowerTap or SRM. Since
it can measure headwind, it should show less power when drafting, or
when riding with a tailwind, but it still has to use some estimate of
the CdA of the bike/rider combination, which changes during a ride with
rider position, and with wind direction. It also changes with the use
of more or less aero equipment, like aerobars or disc wheels or TT
frames.

The accelerometer, along with combined bike/rider weight, should be able
to give a good estimate of hill-climbing or accelerating power. Power
lost to rolling resistance would only be an estimate. While there may
be some way to input tire type to make a better estimate, it can't
measure actual power used.

If the price is reasonable, this might not be too bad a way to estimate
power, especially if you ride mostly in the same position, and not too
much in significant crosswinds. It should be pretty good on hill-
climbing power. I'll be curious to see a comparison test against a true
power meter.

Dave Lehnen

Derk said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame makers
offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well.

Were there nice affordable titanium frames? Did Pegoretti have nice new
frames as well?

Greetings, Derk

Titanium was in the same price range as before. Nice ones in the $2400
range(Moots), same or higher for any US or Euro produced frame(DeRosa).
No evidence of the chinese or Russion except for Torelli which is high
teens in price.

Met and got a jersey signed by Dario Pegoretti. Very interesting dude.
Nothing new from him. Some very exciting paint tho. He continues to
show beautiful, well riding steel, some using the new 'Spirit' steel
from Columbus.
Still has the exzquisite Luigino, lugged steel and $2600 frame and
fork.

I did buy a Mondonico Diamond Extra from Antonio/Torelli, for me. Last
frame actually made by Antonio himself. Wanted to get one before
somebody else makes them.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame makers
offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well. Perhaps
those that have their basket filled with carbon eggs need to recognize
a flood of carbon and a rising popularity with older materials...who
knows. As the rider gets older, and wants to stay or comeback into the
riding market, they 'may' want the latest or they may want something
perceived as more long lasting. Our sale of titanium(Moots) doubled in
2005....

But what you're not mentioning is that most Ti bike companies were showing
full-carbon framesets under their names (usually built offshore). The
"rising popularity with older materials" is most likely not statistically
valid, but they're more obvious because they stand out from the crowd.

But you didn't mention Calfee's Bamboo frames. Why not? Scared that they'll
catch on before you get your own? I'm sure Trek engineers are feverishly at
work trying to come up with their own version (complete with appropriate
acronym).

A subject for an off line discussion, I am sure. Bamboo, great
idea(???)

Litespeed not doing any 'blend' ti bikes, interesting. Also no
integrated HS for them. $7000 Serotta carbon, yikes what's he thinkin'?
I guess he thinks his 'name' goes a long way.

I do wonder if carbon has become so mainsteam it may become so common,
that riders 'may' start to look elsewhere. It is so 'un-unique' that
one can get an all carbon frame and fork for $500 retail, an all carbon
bicycle with 105 10s for $1700..At the coffee shop, with a Mad-One,
then up rides somebody with a whizbang carbon....for way less money.
Wonder if those that wish something 'unique' may look to ti and steel,
once again. Who knows.

I do wonder what Trek has in store for 3-4 years from now, as the
'Lance effect' dwindles. I asked this of some of the Trek 'big boys' in
Milan-Kerry Roberts of Allante, Jay Graves of The Bike Gallery, Jerry
Slack of Cycle Loft and none really had an answer.

Any ideas? Carbon blend?-Carbon lugs with ti tubes?

Quoted message said:

Nor did you mention the painted ladies... (where the Marzocchi girls there?
Didn't see them).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Come on, the biggest buzz coming out of Interbike this year is the
"Country Bike" being pushed by Rivendell/Grant P and QBP. QBP will be
offering through its vast distribution network a, get this, lugged
steel frameset that is made in Taiwan (same factory that builds
Kogswell) and will use 650B (584mm) tires. Not sure of the brakes
required (looong sidepull/Centerpull/cantis), but at $395
wholesale/$700-750 retail, its a relative bargain.

Its being called a "Country Bike" because Grant feels it bring an
"all-arounder" type function that will allow riders to ride on the
road, off-road (e.g., trails, some dirt) and in the city.

Grant is a GENIUS. He really invested in 650B (584mm) tire. However, he
know that Riv alone ain't gonna make a dent in pushing this size.
Signing up a biggie like QBP will get this tire size out there and he
hopes a "new" standard that in 5 years or so be the next craze! Is he
right?

Come on Peter/Mike J, tell me you guys didn't miss the boat??!!

bfd said:

Come on, the biggest buzz coming out of Interbike this year is the
"Country Bike" being pushed by Rivendell/Grant P and QBP. QBP will be
offering through its vast distribution network a, get this, lugged
steel frameset that is made in Taiwan (same factory that builds
Kogswell) and will use 650B (584mm) tires. Not sure of the brakes
required (looong sidepull/Centerpull/cantis), but at $395
wholesale/$700-750 retail, its a relative bargain.

Its being called a "Country Bike" because Grant feels it bring an
"all-arounder" type function that will allow riders to ride on the
road, off-road (e.g., trails, some dirt) and in the city.

Grant is a GENIUS. He really invested in 650B (584mm) tire. However,
he know that Riv alone ain't gonna make a dent in pushing this size.
Signing up a biggie like QBP will get this tire size out there and he
hopes a "new" standard that in 5 years or so be the next craze! Is he
right?

Come on Peter/Mike J, tell me you guys didn't miss the boat??!!

I think that boat sunk a long time ago.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

This is THE future of cycling. A tire size that allows fat, cushy tires
to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort and style!

Tell me you don't like it:
Riv Saluki
http://www.rivbike.com/html/bikes_saluki.html

QBP/Riv Bleriot (4 shots):
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/18.html

Oh yeah, here's a nice shot of the new Bleriot:

http://www.dirtragmag.com/gal/showphoto.php?photo=747&cat=500&page=1

What's that saying "Innovate or DIE!" Well, here's one way to get
people riding.....

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

This is THE future of cycling. A tire size that allows fat, cushy tires
to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort and style!

What is it that 650B can do that a 700C can't? Bigger wheels roll
better, period. You can bet 700C tires in 38mm. Bigger diameter wheel
with same width tire is better than smaller diameter wheel with same
size tire. Frames are available to accept this tire size.

FWIW, I ride 28mm tires at 70-75psi. 38mm tires would seem to be a
little over-pumped at 50psi.

I ride my 700x25mm tires (at 90psi) just about everywhere these "country
bikes" are intended to be ridden.

What is the attraction again?

I'm willing to bet they are *not* the future of cycling ....

Robin Hubert

Quoted message said:

Tell me you don't like it:
Riv Saluki
http://www.rivbike.com/html/bikes_saluki.html

QBP/Riv Bleriot (4 shots):
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/18.html

Quoted message said:

This product claims to be developed by engineers:

"And as experienced electronics and software engineers, we knew we could
find a better way. We did."

But more likely the product was dreamt up buy marketing people. True
engineers would not release a product that misleads the public and doesn't
work in real life conditions.

cel

I'm sad to say that you probably don't know some of the engineers that I
do :-\

\\paul
--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on.

You said it yourself - "mini-revival."

Quoted message said:

Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi,

Where can you get that? On a touring frame using 38-622 wheels that will
roll better than 650B. Plus there's more tire volume.

Quoted message said:

that has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm)
tires, you can do alot more than just ride on the road.

I'm sure 700c CX tires can handle going off-road.

Quoted message said:

This is THE future of cycling.

Ooh, ooh, where can I get one? Lookie here! $1600 for a Saluki frame!
Please don't tell me you can't find a complete bike for that price. If you
like made-in-the-USA, good on you. And the Bleriot is Taiwan-made.

Quoted message said:

A tire size that allows fat, cushy
tires to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort
and style!

Are you serious??? Use 26x 1 3/8" tires, for which there are a multitude of
tire selections, and tell me there's any kind of difference between that and
650B. The 6mm bead seat diameter difference does what again?

Quoted message said:

Tell me you don't like it:
Riv Saluki
http://www.rivbike.com/html/bikes_saluki.html

QBP/Riv Bleriot (4 shots):
http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/18.html

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded by a
typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked those tires in
decades."

It looks to me that people are getting all caught up in cult-status
marketing with nice-looking classic lugged frames, something that's fully
doable with an prevalent tire size. However, that tire size has the
unfortunate stigma of being associated with bikes that are junky. I think
the people you mentioned above are looking to be just a little different.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

I think the question has merit. How does putting an airplane on a
bike frameset and giving it english paneled paintjob and weird wheels
going to make it a big seller, especially when I cannot get polka dot
tires for it which imho are the key to my riding success ??

- Don *snicker* Gillies
San Diego, CA

Quoted message said:

I think the question has merit. How does putting an airplane on a
bike frameset and giving it english paneled paintjob and weird wheels
going to make it a big seller, especially when I cannot get polka dot
tires for it which imho are the key to my riding success ??

- Don *snicker* Gillies

Don: It gives old-timers a sense that they were right all along, that the
world is beginning to see the err of its ways etc. It feels great to believe
that. Too bad it's nearly-always wrong.

Lugs. What a radical idea. Back in the day, it was pretty much the only way
to build a frame. But now? The absolute truth is that modern, air-hardened
steels *prefer* welding. And the absolute truth is that modern, welded steel
frames are almost never seen with buckled downtubes, unlike their
counterparts from days gone by. So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that
claims to be "practical", I cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on
something entirely aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I think the question has merit. How does putting an airplane on a
bike frameset and giving it english paneled paintjob and weird wheels
going to make it a big seller, especially when I cannot get polka dot
tires for it which imho are the key to my riding success ??

- Don *snicker* Gillies

Don: It gives old-timers a sense that they were right all along, that the
world is beginning to see the err of its ways etc. It feels great to believe
that. Too bad it's nearly-always wrong.

Lugs. What a radical idea. Back in the day, it was pretty much the only way
to build a frame. But now? The absolute truth is that modern, air-hardened
steels *prefer* welding. And the absolute truth is that modern, welded steel
frames are almost never seen with buckled downtubes, unlike their
counterparts from days gone by. So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that
claims to be "practical", I cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on
something entirely aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Agree completely, in that lugs are for the riders that want that look,
but offer no advantage. Steel remains a wonderful material for a
bicycle frame.

No need to cringe. 'all the things that are old are new again' is
evident everywhere. From cameras to motorcycles to cars to
clothes....to bicycles.

I think Lemond could do worse that make a anniversary frame, of lugged
steel.

The Merckx 7/11 frame is a beaut..100 frames that are about 1/2 sold
months before they are even made.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nothing really new I saw except a $7000 carbon frame built like a $1500
Calfee Luna....plus lots of other carbon. Do ya suppose Ben recognizes
I can build a Parlee bicycle with Record, complete with pedals for the
price of his frame???

BUT I did see more titanium than I have seen and also many frame makers
offering a smattering of steel, some lugged steel as well. Perhaps
those that have their basket filled with carbon eggs need to recognize
a flood of carbon and a rising popularity with older materials...who
knows. As the rider gets older, and wants to stay or comeback into the
riding market, they 'may' want the latest or they may want something
perceived as more long lasting. Our sale of titanium(Moots) doubled in
2005....

SRAM had a bike in the showcase with their new 10 speed group on it. I
believe they said it is going to be available for 2007. Looks similar to
both Campy and Shimano in many ways. They were reluctant to discuss the
shifting mechanism. To me it appears as if the small lever may do all of the
work somehow. The hood shape is sort of a cross between the Shimano front
end and a Campy hand grip part.

Other than that we did not see anything earth-shattering. There seem to be a
lot of the carbon frames right out of the Taiwan Bike Source book. On the
other hand I did not have that much time to cruise the floor this year...

Wednesday morning and into the afternoon was a crush at our booth. By
Thursday the crowds started to thin out. Friday was slower yet. We still did
manage to give out 4,000 samples.

Bruce

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

The Merckx 7/11 frame is a beaut..100 frames that are about 1/2 sold
months before they are even made.

Which frame is that?

Greetings, Derk