Interbike

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders. I bet if I went to
Mike J.'s shop (one of the 10 closest to me) I would be lucky to find 1
that fits that latter; only the Trek 520 would fit them without fenders
.... Too many frames built with too little room these days.

Rick: The 520 you mentioned obviously would, along with just about any
cyclocross bike. People tend to overlook 'cross bikes as the "utility"
machines they ought to be. Too bad that most manufacturers are now making
"real" 'cross bikes that have just two chainrings up front...

Most cyclocross have enough clearance, not all, but then too many mfr.
apply the label inappropriately. A good cyclocross frame is a good
utility bike (my wife uses one that way) with the caveat that the BB is
a bit high and that affects handling and ride a bit; I prefer a lower
BB most of the time. The only time I have felt the need for one as
high as a CX bike was riding across the Jones trail from Los Gatos to
Lexington Res., but since I had my low BB touring bike I just walked it
across the big rocks rather than risk my nice TA Zephyr crankset ;-)

- rick

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Most cyclocross have enough clearance, not all, but then too many mfr.
apply the label inappropriately. A good cyclocross frame is a good
utility bike (my wife uses one that way) with the caveat that the BB is
a bit high and that affects handling and ride a bit; I prefer a lower
BB most of the time. The only time I have felt the need for one as
high as a CX bike was riding across the Jones trail from Los Gatos to
Lexington Res., but since I had my low BB touring bike I just walked it
across the big rocks rather than risk my nice TA Zephyr crankset ;-)

- rick

Rick,
I didn't realize you're a local rider. Do you ever stop by at the Los Gatos
Roasting Co. on the weekend mornings?
-tom

Rick said:

I have yet to find a 559 rim that I like for anything other than
bombing downhill - all too wide and too heavy for road use.

Which modern 650B rims are *not* available in a 559 version?

James Thomson

Tom Nakashima said:

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Most cyclocross have enough clearance, not all, but then too many mfr.
apply the label inappropriately. A good cyclocross frame is a good
utility bike (my wife uses one that way) with the caveat that the BB is
a bit high and that affects handling and ride a bit; I prefer a lower
BB most of the time. The only time I have felt the need for one as
high as a CX bike was riding across the Jones trail from Los Gatos to
Lexington Res., but since I had my low BB touring bike I just walked it
across the big rocks rather than risk my nice TA Zephyr crankset ;-)

- rick

Rick,
I didn't realize you're a local rider. Do you ever stop by at the Los Gatos
Roasting Co. on the weekend mornings?

Rarely; that is on the southern end of my normal riding area. I live
in MV, for a few more days, then it will be Sunnyvale; most of my
riding friends live in PA, MP, RWC, Woodside so I generally head north
.... but I do slum and head south now and then :-)

- rick

Quoted message said:

-tom

Per bfd:

Quoted message said:

Come on, the biggest buzz coming out of Interbike this year is the
"Country Bike" being pushed by Rivendell/Grant P and QBP. QBP will be
offering through its vast distribution network a, get this, lugged
steel frameset that is made in Taiwan (same factory that builds
Kogswell) and will use 650B (584mm) tires. Not sure of the brakes
required (looong sidepull/Centerpull/cantis), but at $395
wholesale/$700-750 retail, its a relative bargain.

I wonder why they don't use 26" wheels - with are probably the most
widely-available. "Country" <> "City" ==> Not a lot of availability of
oddball tires/rims...?
--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

And give me a break. Standardization in handlebar diameter. Right!
About 50 years after I am dead, if then.

There's a tiny glimmer of hope that the industry might settle on 31.8/9 as a
common size for high-quality road & mountain bike bars. What a concept,
stems that would work for either one.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest

to you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire,

even more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders. I bet if

I went to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike J.'s shop (one of the 10 closest to me) I would be lucky

to find 1

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that fits that latter; only the Trek 520 would fit them

without fenders

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.... Too many frames built with too little room these days.

Rick: The 520 you mentioned obviously would, along with just

about any

Quoted message said:

cyclocross bike. People tend to overlook 'cross bikes as the

"utility"

Quoted message said:

machines they ought to be. Too bad that most manufacturers are

now making

Quoted message said:

"real" 'cross bikes that have just two chainrings up front...

I am going to pester my friends at Trek for a deal on the
Portland when it hits the market. That looks like a pretty cool
bike for commuting and winter training. -- Jay Beattie.

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

And you can do likewise with ISO 622 (with sizes up to 700x60!) and ISO
559 (with widths from 25mm to what, 94mm?)

650B seems like a useful size for reinterpreting an old bike-boom
frame, but as a standard for new frames? All I can say for them is
this: at least they'll probably be convertible to 700c at a later time.

With all due respect to Sheldon and my old college buddy Jan, this is
another variation on the time-tested bike industry theme of hitching
your wagon to a goat, e.g. going nowhere fast.

Chalo Colina

Quoted message said:

2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation when
in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way of
touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
and no ability to carry loads.

- rick

Rick: There's a whole lot in-between the "racer crowd" and those who
ride/need a full-on touring bike. I haven't actively raced in three decades
(scary to think about that); my riding is what would be called "club rides",
centuries and two-hour cruises. For those rides, for me, a standard "racing"
bike fits the bill perfectly. I can ride 120 miles far more comfortably than
I'd feel had I sat in a chair all day. The dirt road across the top of
Bohlman/On Orbit, en route to Black, is no problem. For rain riding, I use
25c tires (normally I run 23c) along with SKS Blade fenders and do just
fine.

If I was using a bike for commuting, or carry-everything touring (as opposed
to credit-card touring, when you're not carrying a tent & sleeping bag), a
"touring" bike would be great. Or a cyclo-cross bike. Or, if the commute was
short enough (under 10 miles), even a hybrid.

So whose needs aren't being met? A very small number of people in the grand
scheme of things. And even that small number of people do have choices, just
not as many.

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical. Just because the product exists doesn't mean people will use it.
It has to be marketed appropriately, and that's where this industry really
sucks. We take bikes that can be used to realize all manner of dreams, but
market them far too narrowly. Cross bikes are the biggest offender. In my
perfect world, you market a 'cross bike as the perfect 2nd bike in the
garage. It's a commute machine. It's your rain bike. It's a touring bike.
And heck, if you want, you can even race it. But the racing label is what
scares people off.

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil said:

Rick said:

Antti Salonen wrote:
> Rick <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> And very,
>> very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can
>> take a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest
>> to you and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm
>> tire, even more challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders.
>
> The most common type of bike sold to the average person here has 700
> wheels and tyres about 38 mm wide. They're not really touring bikes
> because they typically have to racks or other necesary equipment,
> though.

Absolutely not the case in the US ... And touring bikes in the US are
very difficult to find, usually a special order item as other than the
Trek 520 (carried by most Trek dealers) very few shops have touring
bikes in stock. I live in an area with > 5M people, and I would guess
that fewer than 5% of the bike shops will have a touring bike in
stock, and almost all of those will be the aforementioned Trek's.
Sad, very sad.

- rick

- rick

He was referring to hybrids, of which all can take 38mm tires.

1) Not all.
2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation when
in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way of
touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
and no ability to carry loads.

- rick

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical.

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical.

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

I agree with you. A perfect bike for me would be a "race" bike with
clearance for tires up to 30-32 mm or so, or whatever will fit under a
standard/"long" reach 47-57 mm brake caliper. I don't see any good reason
why a short reach brakes have become the new "standard" reach. The only
thing that it saves is a few grams - 1 cm of material on the fork legs and
brake calipers - but I think most people would much more interested in being
able to fit bigger tires on the bike. I don't think I'm the only one who
rides dirt trails on my road (race) bike.

Quoted message said:

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

Think again. The Pilot series have clearance for a 32c, and probably with
fenders at that. The geometry is very slightly less aggressive in the front
end, but not by much. The only issue could be if the upward-sloping top tube
might raise the minimum handlebar height taller than you like.

I'm liking the Pilot OCLVs more and more all the time. What a killer
credit-card tourer and rain bike they'd make. Or commuter.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical.

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

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Andrew Lee said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can
handle 35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more
commuting. I'm skeptical.

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

I agree with you. A perfect bike for me would be a "race" bike with
clearance for tires up to 30-32 mm or so, or whatever will fit under a
standard/"long" reach 47-57 mm brake caliper. I don't see any good
reason why a short reach brakes have become the new "standard" reach.
The only thing that it saves is a few grams - 1 cm of material on the
fork legs and brake calipers - but I think most people would much
more interested in being able to fit bigger tires on the bike. I
don't think I'm the only one who rides dirt trails on my road (race)
bike.

Longer calipers would need high-leverage levers.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Rick said:

Phil said:

Rick said:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

>
> I'm sure 700c CX tires can handle going off-road.

Sure, but they are much firmer tires, not as soft and forgiving as
the Col de Vie's, available is 650B but not 559 or 622.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you not allowed to lower the
pressure on CX tires?

You are allowed, but few of them ride well that low. And none of them
have the suppleness of the casing of the Col de Vie so the ride will
not be anywhere near comparable.

There are a lot of tires out there. Keep an open mind, as you say.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My apologies. I assumed that since there was nothing on the page you
referenced about it being made in Japan, it was made here in the US.

1) I did not reference a page.

The two links you put at the bottom of the page were ones I assumed you were
referencing.

Quoted message said:

2) Anyone who wants to act intelligent should at least read more than
three lines before striking words out on the keyboard. Research
first, type later.

I read the whole thing. None of it said anything about Japan.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oops, yes, 650A. We stock ~20 650A tires at any time at our shop,
and we have zero 650B tires, and that count hasn't changed in the
last 2 years. Granted, we are a college-town shop, so people bring
in their parents' old 650A bikes for fix-me-ups. We see them often
enough that making new frames around this size would be economical,
since we'd have tires and tubes in stock already. I've never seen a
650B bike come in our shop in the last 2 years. So in my
experience, I'm anti-650B and pro-650A with good arguments, but it
may be just the area in which I live.

The 650A size is an artifact of the past, every bit as much as 650B.
The only differences are there is an organization to keep the 650B
alive, and there are people making new 650B bikes. The only argument
for 650A over 650B is one of emotional preference for things anglo
rather than things French. Silly reason.

Seems to be here that other people find 650A more common here in the US.
bfd said: "And that is the genius of Grant Petersen. He knows that a 650B
(584mm)
tire is a new in USA."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded
> by a typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked
> those tires in decades."

And they can order them from QBP and have them in a couple of days.
I

Sorry... I meant that comment to be applicable when you're far away
from home and stranded. In other words, a tire slash equals a long
walk home intead of a short walk to the LBS.

I am in bike shops and stores regularly, all around a metro area of 5M
+ folks (major metro area, get the picture). I never see 650A tires
hanging anywhere, and I have looked through everyone's tire
collection. Again, your argument fails miserably.

26x1 3/8" tires are nowhere to be found? As I've said before, you can find
them on the racks at WalMart. They have to be common enough to be found
there.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Good point. 650A (which we see far more than 650B) fulfills those
requirements, too.

Yes, but no one is building 650A bikes. Folks are making 650B bikes.

For... what... good... reason?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's what I was saying, referring to the direct object in the
previous sentence. I'm sorry if it was unclear. "that tire size" =
650A.

So what's your point: we should flock in droves to a (dead) tire size
for older low quality bikes?

Again dodging the issue... read above about what I wrote about 650A bikes
coming into our shop. It's quite obviously not dead.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hey that's all nice and happy, but in an age where we're finally
getting some standardization with 31.8 handlebars, we don't need
another in-between standard to fill the gap when it could be filled
by existing tire sizes, namely 650A.

650A is no more an 'existing' tire size than 650B. Just because you
have a 650A bike and seem to be an anglophile is no real reason to
prefer one over the other.

Again, there are lots of 650As in my locale. I guess your metro area has
done away with them.

Quoted message said:

And give me a break. Standardization in handlebar diameter. Right!
About 50 years after I am dead, if then.

How about now?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Again, in my experience, there are plenty of 650A bikes out
there, and I've never seen a 650B bike.

So, get off your duff and go find one. Not so hard to find, even the
old French ones.

I think I shall do a little research and try riding one to see if my duff
magically loves the ride!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training 'who has a 650A bike and has absolutely no
trouble finding tires and tubes even at Wal-Mart for his bike!"

Wal-Mart is a big reason not to buy something - never shop at China
Inc.

I found it. I didn't say I bought it. Again dodging the issue: 650B is
dead, and 650A is still around. WalMart wouldn't stock them if the bikes
they go on don't exist. I suppose you will snip this comment out again and
dodge the issue, as you have been.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

Think again. The Pilot series have clearance for a 32c, and probably with
fenders at that. The geometry is very slightly less aggressive in the front
end, but not by much. The only issue could be if the upward-sloping top tube
might raise the minimum handlebar height taller than you like.

If I could afford it and had space to store it, I'd want something
just like my current frame -- it's from a 5200 I think.

JT

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Quoted message said:

Longer calipers would need high-leverage levers.

Shimano currently offers longer-reach calipers, which seem to work just
fine. Trek & Klein are using them on a whole lot of bikes.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:X9k0f.2032$U%5.41@lakeread05...

Quoted message said:

Andrew Lee said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:21:50 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can
> handle 35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more
> commuting. I'm skeptical.

I doubt it too. But a bike like the racing OCLV frame I've got, with
clearance for 28s or 32s would be sooo sweeet.

JT

I agree with you. A perfect bike for me would be a "race" bike with
clearance for tires up to 30-32 mm or so, or whatever will fit under a
standard/"long" reach 47-57 mm brake caliper. I don't see any good
reason why a short reach brakes have become the new "standard" reach.
The only thing that it saves is a few grams - 1 cm of material on the
fork legs and brake calipers - but I think most people would much
more interested in being able to fit bigger tires on the bike. I
don't think I'm the only one who rides dirt trails on my road (race)
bike.

Longer calipers would need high-leverage levers.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that claims to be "practical", I
cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on something entirely
aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

While the aesthetics are important to me (like the grace of a Cinelli quill
stem), I have a friend whose bike has a dent in the top tube bad enough to
require replacement of the tube. Will probably never happen to me, but
easier tube replacement is an added benefit.

Bob Koreis

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that claims to be "practical", I
cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on something entirely
aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

While the aesthetics are important to me (like the grace of a Cinelli
quill stem), I have a friend whose bike has a dent in the top tube bad
enough to require replacement of the tube. Will probably never happen to
me, but easier tube replacement is an added benefit.

Bob Koreis

Getting back to "practical", one needs to point out that an entire new
welded steel frame isn't much different in cost from having a tube replaced
(and the frame repainted) on a lugged steel frame. Yes, it's cool that you
can replace a tube, but it's more of a psychic "feature" (something that
makes you feel good) than practical.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, just because QBP carries something doesn't mean it's going to be
easy to get at your LBS. Easy to order, yes. For those who don't need
something yesterday, no problem. But given how much grief the "real"
tourist
gives a shop over the idea of STI levers, which *might* fail on the trip
to
the Amazon that they might never take... and yet something that wears out
often (a tire) and is far more difficult to find (and far more likely to
fail) is OK... makes you wonder.

But for the trip to the Amazon they had better be riding 559, or 630;
not going to find 584, 571, 590, or any of those down there :-) And
they will probably not be along the Amazon, at least not during the wet
season.

- rick 'who used to live and work in the Amazon basin'

Does the Amazon actually have a dry season, or just less-wet? And, curiosity
has the best of me, what line of work were you in? And were you a cyclist
then?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Longer calipers would need high-leverage levers.

Shimano currently offers longer-reach calipers, which seem to work
just fine. Trek & Klein are using them on a whole lot of bikes.

Whoops, I was under the impression that the parent poster was stating that
even longer-reach-calipers would be nice.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training