Interbike

Robin Hubert said:

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

This is THE future of cycling. A tire size that allows fat, cushy tires
to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort and style!

What is it that 650B can do that a 700C can't? Bigger wheels roll
better, period. You can bet 700C tires in 38mm. Bigger diameter wheel
with same width tire is better than smaller diameter wheel with same
size tire. Frames are available to accept this tire size.

FWIW, I ride 28mm tires at 70-75psi. 38mm tires would seem to be a
little over-pumped at 50psi.

I ride my 700x25mm tires (at 90psi) just about everywhere these "country
bikes" are intended to be ridden.

What is the attraction again?

You folks need to learn some math, and how it affects bike design.
Sure, you can put a 700cx38 tire on a bike, but that combination is
38mm larger in diameter than a 584x38 wheel. That is 1.5", or 3/4"
more in radius. That affects BB height, standover height, geometric
trail, etc. Much more difficult to design a frame for those of small
to medium height if you assume a 700 wheel with 622 rims and fat tires
than if you go for a smaller diameter rim and fat tires. And very,
very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can take
a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders. I bet if I went to
Mike J.'s shop (one of the 10 closest to me) I would be lucky to find 1
that fits that latter; only the Trek 520 would fit them without fenders
..... Too many frames built with too little room these days.

- rick

Phil said:

I'm sure 700c CX tires can handle going off-road.

Sure, but they are much firmer tires, not as soft and forgiving as the
Col de Vie's, available is 650B but not 559 or 622.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is THE future of cycling.

Ooh, ooh, where can I get one? Lookie here! $1600 for a Saluki frame!
Please don't tell me you can't find a complete bike for that price. If you
like made-in-the-USA, good on you. And the Bleriot is Taiwan-made.

You need to read more carefully. The Saluki is not made in the US, it
is made in Japan. And a lot of the cost is due to the administrations
soft dollar policy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A tire size that allows fat, cushy
tires to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort
and style!

Are you serious??? Use 26x 1 3/8" tires, for which there are a multitude of
tire selections, and tell me there's any kind of difference between that and
650B. The 6mm bead seat diameter difference does what again?

Since you are using '26"' that is only 6mm different from 650B you are
apparently advocating for 650A, another odd tire size from the past
that is associated with bikes of lower quality and is a tire size that
is hard to find and most bike shops. In other words, your argument
here for an alternative has all the failings of 650B that you bring up
below. You cannot have it both ways, anti-650B and pro-650A without
your arguments failing.

Quoted message said:

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded by a
typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked those tires in
decades."

And they can order them from QBP and have them in a couple of days. I
have all 700c bikes, I keep maybe 4-5 extra tires hanging around here
at all times. I do not depend on the LBS having a tire in stock at
this very minute. And most bike shops around here are closed on either
Sunday or Monday, so on those two days I have to search anyway.

Quoted message said:

It looks to me that people are getting all caught up in cult-status
marketing with nice-looking classic lugged frames, something that's fully
doable with an prevalent tire size.

Which size? 559? Too small for big bikes, and most of the rims are
heavy and clunky, and the tire situation is abyssmal unless you want
big knobbies or slow slicks. Nothing in between. 622? Not good for
small bikes and wide tires, and the bigger the tire the more odd the
geometry has to get at any size 56 cm C-T or smaller - which means the
everything from the middle of the size curve on down. 584 at least
moves that point a bit to the left.

Quoted message said:

However, that tire size has the
unfortunate stigma of being associated with bikes that are junky.

Bzzzt. Wrong again. The 650B is mostly associated with classic French
touring bikes from the past. Not junky. The 650A you advocate above
is associated with 3-speeds, a class a bit lower on the quality scale
overall.

Quoted message said:

I think
the people you mentioned above are looking to be just a little different.

Different is not bad if there is a purpose. Now if you want to close
your eyes and not try to see the reasons, that is your issue. But at
least get consistent arguments.

- rick 'who rides 700c, only, but sees no reasonable argument against
650B'

Rick said:

And very,
very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can take
a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders.

The most common type of bike sold to the average person here has 700
wheels and tyres about 38 mm wide. They're not really touring bikes
because they typically have to racks or other necesary equipment,
though.

-as

Derk said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

The Merckx 7/11 frame is a beaut..100 frames that are about 1/2 sold
months before they are even made.

Which frame is that?

Greetings, Derk

I think it's the 7/11 frame.

http://www.7-eleven.com

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Antti Salonen said:

Rick said:

And very,
very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can take
a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders.

The most common type of bike sold to the average person here has 700
wheels and tyres about 38 mm wide. They're not really touring bikes
because they typically have to racks or other necesary equipment,
though.

Absolutely not the case in the US ... And touring bikes in the US are
very difficult to find, usually a special order item as other than the
Trek 520 (carried by most Trek dealers) very few shops have touring
bikes in stock. I live in an area with > 5M people, and I would guess
that fewer than 5% of the bike shops will have a touring bike in stock,
and almost all of those will be the aforementioned Trek's. Sad, very
sad.

- rick

- rick

Rick said:

Phil said:

I'm sure 700c CX tires can handle going off-road.

Sure, but they are much firmer tires, not as soft and forgiving as the
Col de Vie's, available is 650B but not 559 or 622.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you not allowed to lower the pressure
on CX tires?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is THE future of cycling.

Ooh, ooh, where can I get one? Lookie here! $1600 for a Saluki
frame! Please don't tell me you can't find a complete bike for that
price. If you like made-in-the-USA, good on you. And the Bleriot
is Taiwan-made.

You need to read more carefully. The Saluki is not made in the US, it
is made in Japan. And a lot of the cost is due to the administrations
soft dollar policy.

My apologies. I assumed that since there was nothing on the page you
referenced about it being made in Japan, it was made here in the US.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A tire size that allows fat, cushy
tires to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort
and style!

Are you serious??? Use 26x 1 3/8" tires, for which there are a
multitude of tire selections, and tell me there's any kind of
difference between that and 650B. The 6mm bead seat diameter
difference does what again?

Since you are using '26"' that is only 6mm different from 650B you are
apparently advocating for 650A, another odd tire size from the past
that is associated with bikes of lower quality and is a tire size that
is hard to find and most bike shops. In other words, your argument
here for an alternative has all the failings of 650B that you bring up
below. You cannot have it both ways, anti-650B and pro-650A without
your arguments failing.

Oops, yes, 650A. We stock ~20 650A tires at any time at our shop, and we
have zero 650B tires, and that count hasn't changed in the last 2 years.
Granted, we are a college-town shop, so people bring in their parents' old
650A bikes for fix-me-ups. We see them often enough that making new frames
around this size would be economical, since we'd have tires and tubes in
stock already. I've never seen a 650B bike come in our shop in the last 2
years. So in my experience, I'm anti-650B and pro-650A with good arguments,
but it may be just the area in which I live.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded by a
typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked those
tires in decades."

And they can order them from QBP and have them in a couple of days. I

Sorry... I meant that comment to be applicable when you're far away from
home and stranded. In other words, a tire slash equals a long walk home
intead of a short walk to the LBS.

Quoted message said:

have all 700c bikes, I keep maybe 4-5 extra tires hanging around here
at all times. I do not depend on the LBS having a tire in stock at
this very minute. And most bike shops around here are closed on
either Sunday or Monday, so on those two days I have to search anyway.

Quoted message said:

It looks to me that people are getting all caught up in cult-status
marketing with nice-looking classic lugged frames, something that's
fully doable with an prevalent tire size.

Which size? 559? Too small for big bikes, and most of the rims are
heavy and clunky, and the tire situation is abyssmal unless you want
big knobbies or slow slicks. Nothing in between. 622? Not good for
small bikes and wide tires, and the bigger the tire the more odd the
geometry has to get at any size 56 cm C-T or smaller - which means the
everything from the middle of the size curve on down. 584 at least
moves that point a bit to the left.

Good point. 650A (which we see far more than 650B) fulfills those
requirements, too.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, that tire size has the
unfortunate stigma of being associated with bikes that are junky.

Bzzzt. Wrong again. The 650B is mostly associated with classic French
touring bikes from the past. Not junky. The 650A you advocate above
is associated with 3-speeds, a class a bit lower on the quality scale
overall.

That's what I was saying, referring to the direct object in the previous
sentence. I'm sorry if it was unclear. "that tire size" = 650A.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think
the people you mentioned above are looking to be just a little
different.

Different is not bad if there is a purpose. Now if you want to close
your eyes and not try to see the reasons, that is your issue. But at
least get consistent arguments.

Hey that's all nice and happy, but in an age where we're finally getting
some standardization with 31.8 handlebars, we don't need another in-between
standard to fill the gap when it could be filled by existing tire sizes,
namely 650A. Again, in my experience, there are plenty of 650A bikes out
there, and I've never seen a 650B bike.

Quoted message said:

- rick 'who rides 700c, only, but sees no reasonable argument against
650B'

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training 'who has a 650A bike and has absolutely no trouble
finding tires and tubes even at Wal-Mart for his bike!"

Quoted message said:

Wednesday morning and into the afternoon was a crush at our booth. By
Thursday the crowds started to thin out. Friday was slower yet. We
still did manage to give out 4,000 samples.

Of? What was your booth?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Rick said:

Antti Salonen said:

Rick said:

And very,
very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can
take a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest
to you and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm
tire, even more challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders.

The most common type of bike sold to the average person here has 700
wheels and tyres about 38 mm wide. They're not really touring bikes
because they typically have to racks or other necesary equipment,
though.

Absolutely not the case in the US ... And touring bikes in the US are
very difficult to find, usually a special order item as other than the
Trek 520 (carried by most Trek dealers) very few shops have touring
bikes in stock. I live in an area with > 5M people, and I would guess
that fewer than 5% of the bike shops will have a touring bike in
stock, and almost all of those will be the aforementioned Trek's.
Sad, very sad.

- rick

- rick

He was referring to hybrids, of which all can take 38mm tires.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil states:

<Oops, yes, 650A. We stock ~20 650A tires at any time at our shop, and
we
have zero 650B tires, and that count hasn't changed in the last 2
years.
Granted, we are a college-town shop, so people bring in their parents'
old
650A bikes for fix-me-ups. We see them often enough that making new
frames
around this size would be economical, since we'd have tires and tubes
in
stock already. I've never seen a 650B bike come in our shop in the
last 2
years. So in my experience, I'm anti-650B and pro-650A with good
arguments,
but it may be just the area in which I live. >

And that is the genius of Grant Petersen. He knows that a 650B (584mm)
tire is a *new* in USA. He also knows that if he kepted it limited to
Rivendell and its customers, it would probably die. By making a deal
with QBP, not only will there be a reasonably priced frame available to
any shop that deals with QBP, there will also be tires and rims
available too.

For all you doubters out there, what you need to do is find a shop that
has a 650B (584mm) bike build up and test ride it. You'll find the
fable cushiness those on the ibob/rbw/650b list are raving about! Do
it, you won't regret it!!!!!

Phil said:

Rick said:

Antti Salonen said:

Rick <[email hidden]> wrote:

> And very,
> very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can
> take a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest
> to you and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm
> tire, even more challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders.

The most common type of bike sold to the average person here has 700
wheels and tyres about 38 mm wide. They're not really touring bikes
because they typically have to racks or other necesary equipment,
though.

Absolutely not the case in the US ... And touring bikes in the US are
very difficult to find, usually a special order item as other than the
Trek 520 (carried by most Trek dealers) very few shops have touring
bikes in stock. I live in an area with > 5M people, and I would guess
that fewer than 5% of the bike shops will have a touring bike in
stock, and almost all of those will be the aforementioned Trek's.
Sad, very sad.

- rick

- rick

He was referring to hybrids, of which all can take 38mm tires.

1) Not all.
2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation when
in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way of
touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
and no ability to carry loads.

- rick

Rick said:

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded by a
typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked those
tires in decades."

IMO the most important argument against strange rim diameters. Recently
a friend had to give up a sunday tour on her bike with 571 rims because
two valve stems gave up. Everybody had a 622 spare tube in the saddle
bag to give her. Being rather on the short side the oddball 571 wheels
do solve a multitude of problems for her. But I would not recommend an
unusual tire size to anybody who can do with standard 406, 622 or 559
also.

Quoted message said:

And they can order them from QBP and have them in a couple of days.

Which will be too late in many situations. It will be better to use a
wheel size your buddies also have on their bikes.

Quoted message said:

Which size? 559? Too small for big bikes,

A purely aesthetic problem IMHO

Quoted message said:

and most of the rims are heavy and clunky,

Yes, there are not many 559-13 rims and AFAIK no tubular rims on the
market, but the choices for 559-17 rims are quite large. The most light
ones are slightly above 400g. What is the weight and width for the
lighest rim in 650B (584 mm)?

Quoted message said:

and the tire situation is abyssmal unless you want
big knobbies or slow slicks.

It varies between 25-559 (Continental Grand Prix) and something like
94-559 (Surly). I am not aware of a rim diameter with a larger choice
of tires though it would be nice to have a broader selection in the
narrow high pressure range. IMHO the existence of 571 is a hindrance
for making this kind of tires and tubulars for 559 also. But a medium
wide tire with comparatively low rolling resistance like the
Specialized Fat Boy is not hard to find, at least around here.

Quoted message said:

Nothing in between. 622? Not good for
small bikes and wide tires, and the bigger the tire the more odd the
geometry has to get at any size 56 cm C-T or smaller

ACK, but for those applications 559 works nicely. No need for odd sizes
from the past like 584 or 590.

Guenther

Phil said:

Rick said:

Phil said:

I'm sure 700c CX tires can handle going off-road.

Sure, but they are much firmer tires, not as soft and forgiving as the
Col de Vie's, available is 650B but not 559 or 622.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you not allowed to lower the pressure
on CX tires?

You are allowed, but few of them ride well that low. And none of them
have the suppleness of the casing of the Col de Vie so the ride will
not be anywhere near comparable.

Quoted message said:

My apologies. I assumed that since there was nothing on the page you
referenced about it being made in Japan, it was made here in the US.

1) I did not reference a page.
2) Anyone who wants to act intelligent should at least read more than
three lines before striking words out on the keyboard. Research first,
type later.

Quoted message said:

Oops, yes, 650A. We stock ~20 650A tires at any time at our shop, and we
have zero 650B tires, and that count hasn't changed in the last 2 years.
Granted, we are a college-town shop, so people bring in their parents' old
650A bikes for fix-me-ups. We see them often enough that making new frames
around this size would be economical, since we'd have tires and tubes in
stock already. I've never seen a 650B bike come in our shop in the last 2
years. So in my experience, I'm anti-650B and pro-650A with good arguments,
but it may be just the area in which I live.

The 650A size is an artifact of the past, every bit as much as 650B.
The only differences are there is an organization to keep the 650B
alive, and there are people making new 650B bikes. The only argument
for 650A over 650B is one of emotional preference for things anglo
rather than things French. Silly reason.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded by a
typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked those
tires in decades."

And they can order them from QBP and have them in a couple of days. I

Sorry... I meant that comment to be applicable when you're far away from
home and stranded. In other words, a tire slash equals a long walk home
intead of a short walk to the LBS.

I am in bike shops and stores regularly, all around a metro area of 5M
+ folks (major metro area, get the picture). I never see 650A tires
hanging anywhere, and I have looked through everyone's tire collection.
Again, your argument fails miserably.

Quoted message said:

Good point. 650A (which we see far more than 650B) fulfills those
requirements, too.

Yes, but no one is building 650A bikes. Folks are making 650B bikes.

Quoted message said:

That's what I was saying, referring to the direct object in the previous
sentence. I'm sorry if it was unclear. "that tire size" = 650A.

So what's your point: we should flock in droves to a (dead) tire size
for older low quality bikes?

Quoted message said:

Hey that's all nice and happy, but in an age where we're finally getting
some standardization with 31.8 handlebars, we don't need another in-between
standard to fill the gap when it could be filled by existing tire sizes,
namely 650A.

650A is no more an 'existing' tire size than 650B. Just because you
have a 650A bike and seem to be an anglophile is no real reason to
prefer one over the other.

And give me a break. Standardization in handlebar diameter. Right!
About 50 years after I am dead, if then.

Quoted message said:

Again, in my experience, there are plenty of 650A bikes out
there, and I've never seen a 650B bike.

So, get off your duff and go find one. Not so hard to find, even the
old French ones.

Quoted message said:

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training 'who has a 650A bike and has absolutely no trouble
finding tires and tubes even at Wal-Mart for his bike!"

Wal-Mart is a big reason not to buy something - never shop at China
Inc.

- rick

Quoted message said:

a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders. I bet if I went to
Mike J.'s shop (one of the 10 closest to me) I would be lucky to find 1
that fits that latter; only the Trek 520 would fit them without fenders
.... Too many frames built with too little room these days.

Rick: The 520 you mentioned obviously would, along with just about any
cyclocross bike. People tend to overlook 'cross bikes as the "utility"
machines they ought to be. Too bad that most manufacturers are now making
"real" 'cross bikes that have just two chainrings up front...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

This is THE future of cycling. A tire size that allows fat, cushy tires
to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort and style!

What is it that 650B can do that a 700C can't? Bigger wheels roll
better, period. You can bet 700C tires in 38mm. Bigger diameter wheel
with same width tire is better than smaller diameter wheel with same
size tire. Frames are available to accept this tire size.

FWIW, I ride 28mm tires at 70-75psi. 38mm tires would seem to be a
little over-pumped at 50psi.

I ride my 700x25mm tires (at 90psi) just about everywhere these "country
bikes" are intended to be ridden.

What is the attraction again?

You folks need to learn some math, and how it affects bike design.
Sure, you can put a 700cx38 tire on a bike, but that combination is
38mm larger in diameter than a 584x38 wheel. That is 1.5", or 3/4"
more in radius. That affects BB height, standover height, geometric
trail, etc. Much more difficult to design a frame for those of small
to medium height if you assume a 700 wheel with 622 rims and fat tires
than if you go for a smaller diameter rim and fat tires. And very,
very, very, very, very few modern frames built for 700 wheels can take
a 38mm tire; think touring frames. Visit the 10 LBS' closest to you
and see how many frames on their floor will fit a 38mm tire, even more
challenging how many can fit a 38mm with fenders. I bet if I went to
Mike J.'s shop (one of the 10 closest to me) I would be lucky to find 1
that fits that latter; only the Trek 520 would fit them without fenders
.... Too many frames built with too little room these days.

- rick

Quoted message said:

And that is the genius of Grant Petersen. He knows that a 650B (584mm)
tire is a *new* in USA. He also knows that if he kepted it limited to
Rivendell and its customers, it would probably die. By making a deal
with QBP, not only will there be a reasonably priced frame available to
any shop that deals with QBP, there will also be tires and rims
available too.

No. The genius of Grant Petersen is his recognition that there's a niche
market out there that isn't being pandered to, and that niche markets will
generally pay quite a bit more than the market rate for items, believing
that they (the niche players) recognize something that has value that goes
beyond what most can understand. That's all well and good; it's a legit
market, and easier to find now that we have the Internet, where no matter
what you believe, you'll find lots of people to support you.

However, just because QBP carries something doesn't mean it's going to be
easy to get at your LBS. Easy to order, yes. For those who don't need
something yesterday, no problem. But given how much grief the "real" tourist
gives a shop over the idea of STI levers, which *might* fail on the trip to
the Amazon that they might never take... and yet something that wears out
often (a tire) and is far more difficult to find (and far more likely to
fail) is OK... makes you wonder.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil states:

<Oops, yes, 650A. We stock ~20 650A tires at any time at our shop, and
we
have zero 650B tires, and that count hasn't changed in the last 2
years.
Granted, we are a college-town shop, so people bring in their parents'
old
650A bikes for fix-me-ups. We see them often enough that making new
frames
around this size would be economical, since we'd have tires and tubes
in
stock already. I've never seen a 650B bike come in our shop in the
last 2
years. So in my experience, I'm anti-650B and pro-650A with good
arguments,
but it may be just the area in which I live. >

And that is the genius of Grant Petersen. He knows that a 650B (584mm)
tire is a *new* in USA. He also knows that if he kepted it limited to
Rivendell and its customers, it would probably die. By making a deal
with QBP, not only will there be a reasonably priced frame available to
any shop that deals with QBP, there will also be tires and rims
available too.

For all you doubters out there, what you need to do is find a shop that
has a 650B (584mm) bike build up and test ride it. You'll find the
fable cushiness those on the ibob/rbw/650b list are raving about! Do
it, you won't regret it!!!!!

(PeteCresswell) said:

Quoted message said:

Come on, the biggest buzz coming out of Interbike this year is the
"Country Bike" being pushed by Rivendell/Grant P and QBP. QBP will
be offering through its vast distribution network a, get this,
lugged steel frameset that is made in Taiwan (same factory that
builds Kogswell) and will use 650B (584mm) tires. Not sure of the
brakes required (looong sidepull/Centerpull/cantis), but at $395
wholesale/$700-750 retail, its a relative bargain.

Quoted message said:

I wonder why they don't use 26" wheels - with are probably the most
widely-available. "Country" <> "City" ==> Not a lot of availability
of oddball tires/rims...?

I thought the Breezer bicycles were the most appropriate offering for
the day. They address a real use and offer alternatives to the car.

http://www.breezerbikes.com/

Jobst Brandt

G?nther Schwarz said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded
by a typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked
those tires in decades."

Quoted message said:

IMO the most important argument against strange rim
diameters. Recently a friend had to give up a Sunday tour on her
bike with 571 rims because two valve stems gave up. Everybody had a
622 spare tube in the saddle bag to give her. Being rather on the
short side the oddball 571 wheels do solve a multitude of problems
for her. But I would not recommend an unusual tire size to anybody
who can do with standard 406, 622 or 559 also.

You can use a non fitting tube both a bit too short or too long. One
gets a little stretch, the other a wrinkle or two but they work.
Don't be so restrictive in thinking that it has to be a perfect fit in
such a situation. The idea is to make the bicycle ridable.

Jobst Brandt

Günther Schwarz said:

Quoted message said:

and the tire situation is abyssmal unless you want
big knobbies or slow slicks.

It varies between 25-559 (Continental Grand Prix) and something like
94-559 (Surly). I am not aware of a rim diameter with a larger choice
of tires though it would be nice to have a broader selection in the
narrow high pressure range. IMHO the existence of 571 is a hindrance
for making this kind of tires and tubulars for 559 also. But a medium
wide tire with comparatively low rolling resistance like the
Specialized Fat Boy is not hard to find, at least around here.

I have yet to find a 559 rim that I like for anything other than
bombing downhill - all too wide and too heavy for road use. And again,
the tire selection is abyssmal - just having a lot of choices does not
mean there are good choices in the lot. Still have not seen a single,
good 559 tire for the road (a few passable, none good), and very few
that are even halfway decent for a mixture of road/light off-road.

- rick

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

However, just because QBP carries something doesn't mean it's going to be
easy to get at your LBS. Easy to order, yes. For those who don't need
something yesterday, no problem. But given how much grief the "real" tourist
gives a shop over the idea of STI levers, which *might* fail on the trip to
the Amazon that they might never take... and yet something that wears out
often (a tire) and is far more difficult to find (and far more likely to
fail) is OK... makes you wonder.

But for the trip to the Amazon they had better be riding 559, or 630;
not going to find 584, 571, 590, or any of those down there :-) And
they will probably not be along the Amazon, at least not during the wet
season.

- rick 'who used to live and work in the Amazon basin'

Jobst Brandt said:

Günther Schwarz said:

Quoted message said:

> What do you do when your tire gets slashed and you're surrounded
> by a typical bike shop? They say: "Sorry sir, we haven't stocked
> those tires in decades."

Quoted message said:

IMO the most important argument against strange rim
diameters. Recently a friend had to give up a Sunday tour on her
bike with 571 rims because two valve stems gave up. Everybody had a
622 spare tube in the saddle bag to give her.

Quoted message said:

You can use a non fitting tube both a bit too short or too long. One
gets a little stretch, the other a wrinkle or two but they work.
Don't be so restrictive in thinking that it has to be a perfect fit in
such a situation. The idea is to make the bicycle ridable.

That is what I did suggest in the given situation. However, she refused
to experiment with the tubes and preferred to walk home, mind you.
Anyway, with a standard wheel size the puncture would have been not
even worth remembering.

Guenther

Rick said:

Günther Schwarz said:

Quoted message said:

and the tire situation is abyssmal unless you want
big knobbies or slow slicks.

It varies between 25-559 (Continental Grand Prix) and something like
94-559 (Surly). I am not aware of a rim diameter with a larger choice
of tires though it would be nice to have a broader selection in the
narrow high pressure range.

Quoted message said:

I have yet to find a 559 rim that I like for anything other than
bombing downhill - all too wide and too heavy for road use.

Would you mind to be a bit more explicit in your statements? Do you
consider a 559-17 rim like the Sun CR18 or Mavic X517 to be too wide
and heavy? Which rim would you prefer for road use in the 584mm size?
You made a statement in favor for the Panaracer "Col de la Vie" 38-584
tire. In order to fit such a tire the rim will have to be at least 17mm
wide. 19mm might well be a better choice.

Quoted message said:

And
again, the tire selection is abyssmal - just having a lot of choices
does not mean there are good choices in the lot. Still have not seen a
single, good 559 tire for the road (a few passable, none good),

Which ones of the slick tires available do you consider to be bad
choices?

Quoted message said:

and very few
that are even halfway decent for a mixture of road/light off-road.

Try a cross country racing tire like the Schwalbe "Racing Ralph" - works
nicely for mixed road and off-road tours. Rolling resistance and noise
of off-road tires have improved a lot.

Guenther