Interbike

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Cross bikes are the biggest offender. In my
perfect world, you market a 'cross bike as the perfect 2nd bike in the
garage. It's a commute machine. It's your rain bike. It's a touring bike.
And heck, if you want, you can even race it. But the racing label is what
scares people off.

Most of the high quality cx bikes lack eyelets for fenders and some of
them even for a water bottle. Narrow mindedness goes deeper than just
marketing.

Jan

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that claims to be "practical", I
cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on something entirely
aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

While the aesthetics are important to me (like the grace of a Cinelli
quill stem), I have a friend whose bike has a dent in the top tube bad
enough to require replacement of the tube. Will probably never happen to
me, but easier tube replacement is an added benefit.

Bob Koreis

Getting back to "practical", one needs to point out that an entire new
welded steel frame isn't much different in cost from having a tube replaced
(and the frame repainted) on a lugged steel frame. Yes, it's cool that you
can replace a tube, but it's more of a psychic "feature" (something that
makes you feel good) than practical.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

C'mon Mike, a talk with a frame builder is in order for you. Mark
Nobilette has replaced single tubes in Frames for us, like one in a
Pinarello, and it was $200, plus a $300 paint job...NO lugged steel
frame of this quality could be found for $500..

How many people have furniture repaired for $ that are more than a
'new' piece of furniture, or cars repaired way more than a new car?
Asthetics and the love of the frame play a large part. It is not always
'get a new bike', type of answer. But in steel bicycle frames, it is
not more expensive. The point is that I doubt anybody is so in love
with an old 5200 OCLV they would repair it rather than replace
it...recognizing Treks and others marketing.

Quoting Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Getting back to "practical", one needs to point out that an entire new
welded steel frame isn't much different in cost from having a tube replaced
(and the frame repainted) on a lugged steel frame.

Mark Nobilette has replaced single tubes in Frames for us, like one in a
Pinarello, and it was $200, plus a $300 paint job...NO lugged steel
frame of this quality could be found for $500..

But he didn't say that. He said a new _welded_ frame costs not much more
than a tube replacement on a lugged steel frame.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Gloucesterday, September.

Quoted message said:

I thought the Breezer bicycles were the most appropriate offering for
the day. They address a real use and offer alternatives to the car.

http://www.breezerbikes.com/

So they've basically reinterpreted the classic english roadster with more
gears (yay!), less chaincase (boo! hiss!), and shorter fenders (Boo!
though I guess it's probably what they were able to get). I still don't
see the value in the 650B tyres though, given that these things originally
had 700B or 700C, usually. I don't know about the .us market, but in the
..nl market, there are 5 or 6 manufacturers at least offering a similar
range (although with fully enclosed chaincase) with 37/622 tyres (since
those are *the* standard tyre around here).

Jasper

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While the aesthetics are important to me (like the grace of a Cinelli
quill stem), I have a friend whose bike has a dent in the top tube bad
enough to require replacement of the tube. Will probably never happen to
me, but easier tube replacement is an added benefit.

Bob Koreis

I kind of enjoy hearing stories about the battle scars on a bike. Unless the
dent is a safety issue, I don't think I would replace the top tube.
My friend and I also fly-fish, he has an old Pflueger medalist that is just
beat to hell. It's the only reel he uses and calls it his lucky charm.
That ugly thing as well as his cane rod still catches fish, and I love
looking at it because it's been all over the world and has many stories to
tell.
-tom

Don't forget that Calfee can *easily* replace any of his carbon tubes
for a reasonable price too:

http://damonrinard.com/photos/calfeedoh.jpg

AND, on most Calfees, no paint is needed!

Well, here's one disadvantage of 650B (584mm) wheels on most bikes it
does need a brake caliper that is longer than the "long-reach" one put
out by Shimano. However, Grant and others are also trying to bring back
CENTERPULL brakes. There are several available like the Dia Compe 750
and the Paul Component's version that cost a whopping $300 or $350!
Nevertheless, those who use CENTERPULL love them and say that combined
with Kool Stop Salmon pads, they work "as well", if not better than the
current sidepull that's currently in fashion.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation when
in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way of
touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
and no ability to carry loads.

- rick

Rick: There's a whole lot in-between the "racer crowd" and those who
ride/need a full-on touring bike. I haven't actively raced in three decades
(scary to think about that); my riding is what would be called "club rides",
centuries and two-hour cruises. For those rides, for me, a standard "racing"
bike fits the bill perfectly. I can ride 120 miles far more comfortably than
I'd feel had I sat in a chair all day. The dirt road across the top of
Bohlman/On Orbit, en route to Black, is no problem. For rain riding, I use
25c tires (normally I run 23c) along with SKS Blade fenders and do just
fine.

Editorial comment: Race Blades are OK, but in comparison with real
fenders they suck. Just gave mine away (bought the first month they
were on the market) since I no longer have a bike that will not fit the
real thing.

Quoted message said:

If I was using a bike for commuting, or carry-everything touring (as opposed
to credit-card touring, when you're not carrying a tent & sleeping bag), a
"touring" bike would be great. Or a cyclo-cross bike. Or, if the commute was
short enough (under 10 miles), even a hybrid.

So whose needs aren't being met? A very small number of people in the grand
scheme of things. And even that small number of people do have choices, just
not as many.

Mike, you missed the point entirely. The point is there is no choice.
I can find maybe 25-30 models of MTB's within a 25 mile radius of where
I live, I can find maybe 25-30 models of 'racing' bike in that same
radius, but I would be hard-pressed to find more than 1-2 models of
'touring' (full, sport, etc.) bikes in that same radius. I know I can
find Trek 520's, but what if that does not suit me. I can list maybe
15-20 models of "touring" bikes (not including Cross bikes), but
dealers do not have them on the floor. 1-2 out of 20 or so possible
models is not choice. How many shops in the area carry the new breed
of city bikes (Breezers, etc.). None that I have seen. I know it is a
risk for shops to carry something, but how do owners know there is no
demand when no one tries? A friend of mine has been looking for a
bike that can be used for light touring and commuting; she wants
generator powered lights, somewhat larger tires, braze-ons for racks
and fenders, somewhat more relaxed geometry (her main bike is a custom
built for PABW a few years back). Cannot find anything to fit the bill
on the shop floors so she is trying to get me to build it for her
though I am short on time resources at present. Opportunities are
being missed, potential customer needs are not being met. The industry
needs to get out of this narrow view look where MTB and racing are the
main markets and everything else gets shoved aside.

Quoted message said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical. Just because the product exists doesn't mean people will use it.
It has to be marketed appropriately, and that's where this industry really
sucks. We take bikes that can be used to realize all manner of dreams, but
market them far too narrowly. Cross bikes are the biggest offender. In my
perfect world, you market a 'cross bike as the perfect 2nd bike in the
garage. It's a commute machine. It's your rain bike. It's a touring bike.
And heck, if you want, you can even race it. But the racing label is what
scares people off.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

Yes, but you are part of the industry. You get to talk, face to face,
with the decision makers at one of the big movers and shakers in the
industry. You should not be telling this to Trek, you should be
shouting this at Trek.

Interesting discussion as it comes on heels of the news that bike sales
seem to be going up as oil prices are going up. I see more bike
commuters now, even with the shorter days, than I have seen in a long
time, Seems like the perfect time for the introduction of well-thought
out commuter bikes - fenders, somewhat wider tires, integrated lighting
systems (generator powered; batteries suck, esp. when they die on you
in the middle of nowhere), ability to carry things, etc. Except for
gearing (not enough range for hilly areas) the Bianchi Castro Valley is
along the lines of what I am talking about. Let's see the industry
respond.

- rick

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and
forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

Yes, but you are part of the industry. You get to talk, face to face,
with the decision makers at one of the big movers and shakers in the
industry. You should not be telling this to Trek, you should be
shouting this at Trek.

Interesting discussion as it comes on heels of the news that bike sales
seem to be going up as oil prices are going up. I see more bike
commuters now, even with the shorter days, than I have seen in a long
time, Seems like the perfect time for the introduction of well-thought
out commuter bikes - fenders, somewhat wider tires, integrated lighting
systems (generator powered; batteries suck, esp. when they die on you
in the middle of nowhere), ability to carry things, etc. Except for
gearing (not enough range for hilly areas) the Bianchi Castro Valley is
along the lines of what I am talking about. Let's see the industry
respond.

Rick: The bikes you believe are so cool... especially when you start talking
about esoterica such as generator-powered lighting system... do not have a
large-enough audience to justify full-scale production from a major
manufacturer. The inevitably become closeouts at the end of the year.
Nevertheless Trek does have them, as you can see here-
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/Index.php.

Please note we've carried these bikes in the past, and they do not sell.
They sit & rot on the floor, because the customer wanting this type of bike
has not an approximate but an *exact* idea of what they're looking for.
Anything else is an unacceptable compromise. That's fine, providing you have
others who weren't aware of their existence, and see them as an opportunity.
But truth is, Joe & Jane customer are generally put off by the pricing, and
find a basic hybrid to be a more attractive commute machine. A la carte is
the way to go in the US, as opposed to overseas, particularly Germany, where
bikes are marketed fully set up & ready to go.

Rick, it's not a conspiracy. It's all about what will sell in large-enough
quantities to be profitable.

As for the chicken vs egg thing (how can customers get interested in
something that doesn't exist), again, there are options that exist, and some
more on the way (including the new "Portland" model that, as yet, doesn't
have info on the Trek website). But the bike industry doesn't have enough
marketing power to drive demand in the way larger industries do.

And, at present, this market suffers from what I'd call "recumbent
syndrome." What's that? "Recumbent syndrome" is when you have customers
wanting something that's not quite exactly what you have, and nearly always
seem to know more about the product than the salesperson. The last part
isn't as unusual as you'd think; it's normal for someone looking for just
about any highly-specialized item, whether it be high-end stereo, computer
or bikes, to know more about a *specific* product than the salesperson,
simply because the customer has devoted untold hour into researching just
that one thing.

And when you have "RS" (Recumbent Syndrome), it's often a very uncomfortable
situation for salesperson & potential buyer (since the salesperson may know
less than the buyer) and that discourages a lot of shops from carrying such
items. Thus we have ever-fewer shops carrying Recumbents, even though it's a
legit product.

Let's look at this another way. There are more products out there than you
think, as I've pointed out already. You can look at the positive side of
this and say hey, look there are options now that didn't exist before. Or
you can be negative and say hey, if it doesn't have these exact specs, it's
no good. The latter approach will forever relegate the type of bikes you
want to RS status.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation when
in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way of
touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
and no ability to carry loads.

- rick

Rick: There's a whole lot in-between the "racer crowd" and those who
ride/need a full-on touring bike. I haven't actively raced in three
decades
(scary to think about that); my riding is what would be called "club
rides",
centuries and two-hour cruises. For those rides, for me, a standard
"racing"
bike fits the bill perfectly. I can ride 120 miles far more comfortably
than
I'd feel had I sat in a chair all day. The dirt road across the top of
Bohlman/On Orbit, en route to Black, is no problem. For rain riding, I
use
25c tires (normally I run 23c) along with SKS Blade fenders and do just
fine.

Editorial comment: Race Blades are OK, but in comparison with real
fenders they suck. Just gave mine away (bought the first month they
were on the market) since I no longer have a bike that will not fit the
real thing.

Quoted message said:

If I was using a bike for commuting, or carry-everything touring (as
opposed
to credit-card touring, when you're not carrying a tent & sleeping bag),
a
"touring" bike would be great. Or a cyclo-cross bike. Or, if the commute
was
short enough (under 10 miles), even a hybrid.

So whose needs aren't being met? A very small number of people in the
grand
scheme of things. And even that small number of people do have choices,
just
not as many.

Mike, you missed the point entirely. The point is there is no choice.
I can find maybe 25-30 models of MTB's within a 25 mile radius of where
I live, I can find maybe 25-30 models of 'racing' bike in that same
radius, but I would be hard-pressed to find more than 1-2 models of
'touring' (full, sport, etc.) bikes in that same radius. I know I can
find Trek 520's, but what if that does not suit me. I can list maybe
15-20 models of "touring" bikes (not including Cross bikes), but
dealers do not have them on the floor. 1-2 out of 20 or so possible
models is not choice. How many shops in the area carry the new breed
of city bikes (Breezers, etc.). None that I have seen. I know it is a
risk for shops to carry something, but how do owners know there is no
demand when no one tries? A friend of mine has been looking for a
bike that can be used for light touring and commuting; she wants
generator powered lights, somewhat larger tires, braze-ons for racks
and fenders, somewhat more relaxed geometry (her main bike is a custom
built for PABW a few years back). Cannot find anything to fit the bill
on the shop floors so she is trying to get me to build it for her
though I am short on time resources at present. Opportunities are
being missed, potential customer needs are not being met. The industry
needs to get out of this narrow view look where MTB and racing are the
main markets and everything else gets shoved aside.

Quoted message said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical. Just because the product exists doesn't mean people will use
it.
It has to be marketed appropriately, and that's where this industry
really
sucks. We take bikes that can be used to realize all manner of dreams,
but
market them far too narrowly. Cross bikes are the biggest offender. In my
perfect world, you market a 'cross bike as the perfect 2nd bike in the
garage. It's a commute machine. It's your rain bike. It's a touring bike.
And heck, if you want, you can even race it. But the racing label is what
scares people off.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and
forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

Yes, but you are part of the industry. You get to talk, face to face,
with the decision makers at one of the big movers and shakers in the
industry. You should not be telling this to Trek, you should be
shouting this at Trek.

Interesting discussion as it comes on heels of the news that bike sales
seem to be going up as oil prices are going up. I see more bike
commuters now, even with the shorter days, than I have seen in a long
time, Seems like the perfect time for the introduction of well-thought
out commuter bikes - fenders, somewhat wider tires, integrated lighting
systems (generator powered; batteries suck, esp. when they die on you
in the middle of nowhere), ability to carry things, etc. Except for
gearing (not enough range for hilly areas) the Bianchi Castro Valley is
along the lines of what I am talking about. Let's see the industry
respond.

- rick

sheeeet
that looks like my raleigh and paid $50 for it in good condition.

You're lucky. Not everybody finds a "good condition" raleigh for $50.
Nevertheless, one thing the new Bleriot has that most older bikes don't
is the nice head tube extension so you can get those bars up nice and
HIGH! Here's a few more shots:

Next 5 shots are close-ups of hte Bleriot:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2005/pages/18.html

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So anytime I see lugs on a modern bike that claims to be "practical", I
cringe a bit. Because somebody's spending $$$ on something entirely
aesthetic, but trying to push the "practical" label.

While the aesthetics are important to me (like the grace of a Cinelli
quill stem), I have a friend whose bike has a dent in the top tube bad
enough to require replacement of the tube. Will probably never happen to
me, but easier tube replacement is an added benefit.

Bob Koreis

Getting back to "practical", one needs to point out that an entire new
welded steel frame isn't much different in cost from having a tube replaced
(and the frame repainted) on a lugged steel frame. Yes, it's cool that you
can replace a tube, but it's more of a psychic "feature" (something that
makes you feel good) than practical.

Not entirely. Consider a frame a that fits the rider very
well. The fit, geometry, looks, and various elements of
the frame compound to produce a frame that is very
difficult to duplicate today. My Raleigh International had
the top tube and down tube replaced. The frame maker also
added cable routing under the bottom bracket and shifter
bosses, thus reducing the clutter of two clamps. The front
fork is one of those thin Reynolds jobs that suits my 68
kg very well.

It has a horizontal top tube, horizontal Campagnolo drop
outs, Campagnolo lugs in front, small diameter tubing,
longish chain stays, room for 27" x 1" 1/4 tires and mud
guards; and corners very well. It is a good looking
bicycle. This is a frame worth keeping.

I also have a modern frame with modern equipment that I
value very much.

--
Michael Press

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by
product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and
forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

Yes, but you are part of the industry. You get to talk, face to face,
with the decision makers at one of the big movers and shakers in the
industry. You should not be telling this to Trek, you should be
shouting this at Trek.

Interesting discussion as it comes on heels of the news that bike sales
seem to be going up as oil prices are going up. I see more bike
commuters now, even with the shorter days, than I have seen in a long
time, Seems like the perfect time for the introduction of well-thought
out commuter bikes - fenders, somewhat wider tires, integrated lighting
systems (generator powered; batteries suck, esp. when they die on you
in the middle of nowhere), ability to carry things, etc. Except for
gearing (not enough range for hilly areas) the Bianchi Castro Valley is
along the lines of what I am talking about. Let's see the industry
respond.

Rick: The bikes you believe are so cool... especially when you start
talking about esoterica such as generator-powered lighting system... do
not have a large-enough audience to justify full-scale production from a
major manufacturer. The inevitably become closeouts at the end of the
year. Nevertheless Trek does have them, as you can see here-
http://www2.trekbikes.com/Bikes/Specialty_Bikes/Trekking/Index.php.

Please note we've carried these bikes in the past, and they do not sell.
They sit & rot on the floor, because the customer wanting this type of
bike has not an approximate but an *exact* idea of what they're looking
for. Anything else is an unacceptable compromise. That's fine, providing
you have others who weren't aware of their existence, and see them as an
opportunity. But truth is, Joe & Jane customer are generally put off by
the pricing, and find a basic hybrid to be a more attractive commute
machine. A la carte is the way to go in the US, as opposed to overseas,
particularly Germany, where bikes are marketed fully set up & ready to go.

Rick, it's not a conspiracy. It's all about what will sell in large-enough
quantities to be profitable.

As for the chicken vs egg thing (how can customers get interested in
something that doesn't exist), again, there are options that exist, and
some more on the way (including the new "Portland" model that, as yet,
doesn't have info on the Trek website). But the bike industry doesn't have
enough marketing power to drive demand in the way larger industries do.

And, at present, this market suffers from what I'd call "recumbent
syndrome." What's that? "Recumbent syndrome" is when you have customers
wanting something that's not quite exactly what you have, and nearly
always seem to know more about the product than the salesperson. The last
part isn't as unusual as you'd think; it's normal for someone looking for
just about any highly-specialized item, whether it be high-end stereo,
computer or bikes, to know more about a *specific* product than the
salesperson, simply because the customer has devoted untold hour into
researching just that one thing.

And when you have "RS" (Recumbent Syndrome), it's often a very
uncomfortable situation for salesperson & potential buyer (since the
salesperson may know less than the buyer) and that discourages a lot of
shops from carrying such items. Thus we have ever-fewer shops carrying
Recumbents, even though it's a legit product.

Let's look at this another way. There are more products out there than you
think, as I've pointed out already. You can look at the positive side of
this and say hey, look there are options now that didn't exist before. Or
you can be negative and say hey, if it doesn't have these exact specs,
it's no good. The latter approach will forever relegate the type of bikes
you want to RS status.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Rick" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

> 2) And I was talking of the poor situation in the US where bike shops
> cater to the racer crowd and little else. It is a sorry situation
> when
> in a metro area of 5M plus folks there is almost nothing in the way
> of
> touring bikes, but far too many carbon wonders with no tire clearance
> and no ability to carry loads.
>
> - rick

Rick: There's a whole lot in-between the "racer crowd" and those who
ride/need a full-on touring bike. I haven't actively raced in three
decades
(scary to think about that); my riding is what would be called "club
rides",
centuries and two-hour cruises. For those rides, for me, a standard
"racing"
bike fits the bill perfectly. I can ride 120 miles far more comfortably
than
I'd feel had I sat in a chair all day. The dirt road across the top of
Bohlman/On Orbit, en route to Black, is no problem. For rain riding, I
use
25c tires (normally I run 23c) along with SKS Blade fenders and do just
fine.

Editorial comment: Race Blades are OK, but in comparison with real
fenders they suck. Just gave mine away (bought the first month they
were on the market) since I no longer have a bike that will not fit the
real thing.

Quoted message said:

If I was using a bike for commuting, or carry-everything touring (as
opposed
to credit-card touring, when you're not carrying a tent & sleeping bag),
a
"touring" bike would be great. Or a cyclo-cross bike. Or, if the commute
was
short enough (under 10 miles), even a hybrid.

So whose needs aren't being met? A very small number of people in the
grand
scheme of things. And even that small number of people do have choices,
just
not as many.

Mike, you missed the point entirely. The point is there is no choice.
I can find maybe 25-30 models of MTB's within a 25 mile radius of where
I live, I can find maybe 25-30 models of 'racing' bike in that same
radius, but I would be hard-pressed to find more than 1-2 models of
'touring' (full, sport, etc.) bikes in that same radius. I know I can
find Trek 520's, but what if that does not suit me. I can list maybe
15-20 models of "touring" bikes (not including Cross bikes), but
dealers do not have them on the floor. 1-2 out of 20 or so possible
models is not choice. How many shops in the area carry the new breed
of city bikes (Breezers, etc.). None that I have seen. I know it is a
risk for shops to carry something, but how do owners know there is no
demand when no one tries? A friend of mine has been looking for a
bike that can be used for light touring and commuting; she wants
generator powered lights, somewhat larger tires, braze-ons for racks
and fenders, somewhat more relaxed geometry (her main bike is a custom
built for PABW a few years back). Cannot find anything to fit the bill
on the shop floors so she is trying to get me to build it for her
though I am short on time resources at present. Opportunities are
being missed, potential customer needs are not being met. The industry
needs to get out of this narrow view look where MTB and racing are the
main markets and everything else gets shoved aside.

Quoted message said:

Now, we could say that greater availability of road bikes that can
handle
35-38c tires, along with fenders, might encourage more commuting. I'm
skeptical. Just because the product exists doesn't mean people will use
it.
It has to be marketed appropriately, and that's where this industry
really
sucks. We take bikes that can be used to realize all manner of dreams,
but
market them far too narrowly. Cross bikes are the biggest offender. In
my
perfect world, you market a 'cross bike as the perfect 2nd bike in the
garage. It's a commute machine. It's your rain bike. It's a touring
bike.
And heck, if you want, you can even race it. But the racing label is
what
scares people off.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that bikes are designed & defined too narrowly, by
product
managers who focus too much on what *they* think is really cool, and
forget
about broadening the product's appeal to a wider audience.

Yes, but you are part of the industry. You get to talk, face to face,
with the decision makers at one of the big movers and shakers in the
industry. You should not be telling this to Trek, you should be
shouting this at Trek.

Interesting discussion as it comes on heels of the news that bike sales
seem to be going up as oil prices are going up. I see more bike
commuters now, even with the shorter days, than I have seen in a long
time, Seems like the perfect time for the introduction of well-thought
out commuter bikes - fenders, somewhat wider tires, integrated lighting
systems (generator powered; batteries suck, esp. when they die on you
in the middle of nowhere), ability to carry things, etc. Except for
gearing (not enough range for hilly areas) the Bianchi Castro Valley is
along the lines of what I am talking about. Let's see the industry
respond.

Hear, hear! We have that same problem, too. The Specialized Globe is
similar to those Trek bikes, and we had one special-ordered because we don't
have the floor space to keep these bikes in stock and moving.

We do however, have a Castro Valley in stock. People loooove to look at it
and say it's so cool. But that's it. No sales.

Recumbent syndrome... I like that one!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, here's one disadvantage of 650B (584mm) wheels on most bikes it
does need a brake caliper that is longer than the "long-reach" one put
out by Shimano. However, Grant and others are also trying to bring back
CENTERPULL brakes. There are several available like the Dia Compe 750
and the Paul Component's version that cost a whopping $300 or $350!
Nevertheless, those who use CENTERPULL love them and say that combined
with Kool Stop Salmon pads, they work "as well", if not better than the
current sidepull that's currently in fashion.

I guess I'll say this: If the market can sustain a 650B revival, so be it.
I don't think it'll happen though.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Hear, hear! We have that same problem, too. The Specialized Globe is
similar to those Trek bikes, and we had one special-ordered because we
don't have the floor space to keep these bikes in stock and moving.

We do however, have a Castro Valley in stock. People loooove to look at
it and say it's so cool. But that's it. No sales.

On the other hand, if such bikes are presented as a legitimate category,
it's difficult for them to get off the ground. When a shop brings in just
one of something, it tends to become something of an orphan. When you bring
in a bunch of them, it obtains legitimacy.

So how do you present such bikes as an option, without sinking a whole lot
of money into a category that might not sell? Best way is to present it as
an extension of something you already sell, a super-hybrid commuter or some
such. But you've got to make a conscious effort to bring it up in your
normal presentation of hybrids... you never know, but you might find
yourself expanding on someone's dream of how they might use a bike. That's
the key thing. Get them to think of new ways to ride, new opportunities.

Quoted message said:

Recumbent syndrome... I like that one!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Hear, hear! We have that same problem, too. The Specialized Globe
is similar to those Trek bikes, and we had one special-ordered
because we don't have the floor space to keep these bikes in stock
and moving. We do however, have a Castro Valley in stock. People loooove
to
look at it and say it's so cool. But that's it. No sales.

On the other hand, if such bikes are presented as a legitimate
category, it's difficult for them to get off the ground. When a shop
brings in just one of something, it tends to become something of an
orphan. When you bring in a bunch of them, it obtains legitimacy.

So how do you present such bikes as an option, without sinking a
whole lot of money into a category that might not sell? Best way is
to present it as an extension of something you already sell, a
super-hybrid commuter or some such. But you've got to make a
conscious effort to bring it up in your normal presentation of
hybrids... you never know, but you might find yourself expanding on
someone's dream of how they might use a bike. That's the key thing.
Get them to think of new ways to ride, new opportunities.

Quoted message said:

Recumbent syndrome... I like that one!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Interesting way of thought...

The problem is we have something like 1000-1200 square feet of total space
(office, work stands, storage, showroom, boxes) to work with, and probably
120 bikes. We have to wheel our entry-level stuff and repair bikes out on
racks outside every day to have enough space to move around.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

I don't know, it sounds like its catching on. Heck, besides production
bikes from Riv and now QBP, you can get high end custom steel bikes
from MIke Berry (Mariposa), Rivendell (via Curt Goodrich, Toyo and now
the mysterious Taiwanese builder), Curt Goodrich (individually and for
Rivendell), Matt G's Kogswell (using that same mysterious Taiwanese
builder), and Cycle Tournesol, which offers its 650B frames in steel
(Martin Tweedy), titanium (Moots) AND CARBON FIBER (Bob Parlee).
Further, there are other custom framebuilders out there who will build
you a 650B (584)mm tire bike.

With QBP, now selling a 650B frame, it will also carry tires and rims,
so 650B will only be a phone call away. With this kind of
"distribution", ANY shop in America that does business with QBP can now
get you all-things 650B. Its growing.

Oh yeah, ALOT of people are now taking older 70s/80s and newer "racers"
that before had very little room for fenders and/or 700x25 tires and
are now converting those bikes into a more useable and cushy 650B
style. The esteem Sheldon Brown has an excellent article on it:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/650b.html

bfd said:

I don't know, it sounds like its catching on. Heck, besides production
bikes from Riv and now QBP, you can get high end custom steel bikes
from MIke Berry (Mariposa), Rivendell (via Curt Goodrich, Toyo and now
the mysterious Taiwanese builder), Curt Goodrich (individually and for
Rivendell), Matt G's Kogswell (using that same mysterious Taiwanese
builder), and Cycle Tournesol, which offers its 650B frames in steel
(Martin Tweedy), titanium (Moots) AND CARBON FIBER (Bob Parlee).
Further, there are other custom framebuilders out there who will build
you a 650B (584)mm tire bike.

With QBP, now selling a 650B frame, it will also carry tires and rims,
so 650B will only be a phone call away. With this kind of
"distribution", ANY shop in America that does business with QBP can
now get you all-things 650B. Its growing.

Oh yeah, ALOT of people are now taking older 70s/80s and newer
"racers" that before had very little room for fenders and/or 700x25
tires and are now converting those bikes into a more useable and
cushy 650B style. The esteem Sheldon Brown has an excellent article
on it:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/650b.html

Nice... a $1000-$2000 utility bike that you'll be afraid to lock up outside
because it might get stolen. In other words, useless for those that can't
stay with their bike the whole time.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Please note we've carried these bikes in the past, and they do not sell.
They sit & rot on the floor, because the customer wanting this type of bike
has not an approximate but an *exact* idea of what they're looking for.
Anything else is an unacceptable compromise. That's fine, providing you have
others who weren't aware of their existence, and see them as an opportunity.
But truth is, Joe & Jane customer are generally put off by the pricing, and
find a basic hybrid to be a more attractive commute machine. A la carte is
the way to go in the US, as opposed to overseas, particularly Germany, where
bikes are marketed fully set up & ready to go.

Is the difference in bike markets in some European countries and US that
you don't have Joe&Jane buying bikes? Is the US clientele more
polarized? The ones that buy bikes are already deep into RS, and there
are only two types of customers: the freak and the no-show?

What is the bike shop owner's view?

Jan

Quoted message said:

The problem is we have something like 1000-1200 square feet of total space
(office, work stands, storage, showroom, boxes) to work with, and probably
120 bikes. We have to wheel our entry-level stuff and repair bikes out on
racks outside every day to have enough space to move around.

And what's weird is that it doesn't get any better when you have 8000sq ft.
Seems like you can never set up bikes the way the professionals tell you
to... separate areas for the different types, display them along with the
stuff you'd buy with one, don't let things get cluttered... yeah, right.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:UbH0f.3853$U%5.1707@lakeread05...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Hear, hear! We have that same problem, too. The Specialized Globe
is similar to those Trek bikes, and we had one special-ordered
because we don't have the floor space to keep these bikes in stock
and moving. We do however, have a Castro Valley in stock. People
loooove to
look at it and say it's so cool. But that's it. No sales.

On the other hand, if such bikes are presented as a legitimate
category, it's difficult for them to get off the ground. When a shop
brings in just one of something, it tends to become something of an
orphan. When you bring in a bunch of them, it obtains legitimacy.

So how do you present such bikes as an option, without sinking a
whole lot of money into a category that might not sell? Best way is
to present it as an extension of something you already sell, a
super-hybrid commuter or some such. But you've got to make a
conscious effort to bring it up in your normal presentation of
hybrids... you never know, but you might find yourself expanding on
someone's dream of how they might use a bike. That's the key thing.
Get them to think of new ways to ride, new opportunities.

Quoted message said:

Recumbent syndrome... I like that one!

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Interesting way of thought...

The problem is we have something like 1000-1200 square feet of total space
(office, work stands, storage, showroom, boxes) to work with, and probably
120 bikes. We have to wheel our entry-level stuff and repair bikes out on
racks outside every day to have enough space to move around.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training