Interbike

Quoting bfd <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Oh yeah, ALOT of people are now taking older 70s/80s and newer "racers"
that before had very little room for fenders and/or 700x25 tires and
are now converting those bikes into a more useable and cushy 650B
style. The esteem Sheldon Brown has an excellent article on it:

I don't think anyone's saying *that* doesn't make perfect sense. But new
650B bikes, you have to ask why; if people want new bikes with clearance
for big tyres, they could just make 700C bikes with clearance for big
tyres. Hell, Rivendell *do*. Shorter riders could use 26" - it's not like
26" tyres are hard to find.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Leicesterday, September.

I disagree. While its obvious that anybody buying a high end custom
steel frame from Riv/Goodrich/others or a Cycle Tournesol will not be
parking their bikes on the sidewall, I don't see how taking older
"racer" type bikes from the 80s and 90s, e.g., older miyata, nishiki,
derosa, bottechia, even trek steel frame bikes, and converting them
into more practical bikes via the use of 650B (584mm) wheels will all
of a sudden make them "$1000-2000 utility bikes"?

These bikes aren't worth that much as "racers". How could adding 650B
wheels and fenders make them worth that much now? 650B conversion makes
sense for many. With QBP now selling a 650B frameset and thus, now
carrying 650B tires and rims, alot of people can take these old
"racers" that are just sitting in the garage or basement and turn them
into useful productive bikes! What's not to like?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

And what's weird is that it doesn't get any better when you have 8000sq ft.
Seems like you can never set up bikes the way the professionals tell you
to... separate areas for the different types, display them along with the
stuff you'd buy with one, don't let things get cluttered... yeah, right.

The Rose Versand physical shop seems to have that stuff down pat (from the
pictures) -- but that's probably more like 50-100.000 sqft (ah, I found
specs: 60.000), and it's *just* a display room shop, the (huge) storage,
shipping, fabrication, assembly, and repair departments are separate.

http://www.roseversand.de/rose_main.cfm?mid=72&spr_id=3&cid=12&ktg_id=0&PLZ=-1&startdatum=0&enddatum=0&kategorie=

Jasper

What people don't realize is that the "magic" of 650B (584mm) tires is
that you can run 38mm wide tires at 50psi to get its fabled cushiness,
yet still have the same rolling diameter of a 700x23 tire. Many
consider this the best of both worlds.

In contrast, a 26" (559mm) tire is too small and doesn't roll like a
700. Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38. Those who
ride 650b wheels claim the Mitsuboshi Trimline or Panaracer Col de la
Vie make it feel like you're riding on "fast marshmellows". If you
want/need cushiness, then this is the size for you!

bfd said:

Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

Huh?

Note that the 650B crowd wants smaller wheels for a better ride, while
29er MTB types want bigger wheels for a better ride. I don't think we
can have it both ways.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

dvt said:

bfd said:

Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

Huh?

Note that the 650B crowd wants smaller wheels for a better ride, while
29er MTB types want bigger wheels for a better ride. I don't think we
can have it both ways.

Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend, probably because there is no
good argument for bringing 650B back other than that it's a different toy
for the high-end crowd. These contradictory arguments for it are now just
plain entertaining.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil states:

<Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend>

Maybe not, but he has said this:

"I expected to like the 650B wheels, but I didn't expect to like them
as much as I do. They're a great combination of speed and comfort, very
sure-footed feeling"

"I must say I really do like the ride of the 584s. It's got Panaracer
Col de la Vie tires, 38 mm width, running at about 50 psi, which makes
a HUGE improvment in the ride of the bike. The smaller diameter
compared to the original 622 mm (700C) tires turns niggardly clearance
into fairly generous clearance, viz. the fact that I was even able to
mount an SKS/ESGE P35 fender on the Winwood fork with the 38 mm tire,
where previously a 28 mm tire all by itself was a tight squeeze."

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/index.html

Doesn't sound too contracdictory to me....

Phil said:

dvt said:

bfd said:

Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

Huh?

Note that the 650B crowd wants smaller wheels for a better ride, while
29er MTB types want bigger wheels for a better ride. I don't think we
can have it both ways.

Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend, probably because there is no
good argument for bringing 650B back other than that it's a different toy
for the high-end crowd. These contradictory arguments for it are now just
plain entertaining.
--

You need to listen to his Interbike podcast. He states on that that he
is a fan of 650B.

- rick

bfd said:

Phil states:

<Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend>

Maybe not, but he has said this:

"I expected to like the 650B wheels, but I didn't expect to like them
as much as I do. They're a great combination of speed and comfort,
very sure-footed feeling"

"I must say I really do like the ride of the 584s. It's got Panaracer
Col de la Vie tires, 38 mm width, running at about 50 psi, which makes
a HUGE improvment in the ride of the bike. The smaller diameter
compared to the original 622 mm (700C) tires turns niggardly clearance
into fairly generous clearance, viz. the fact that I was even able to
mount an SKS/ESGE P35 fender on the Winwood fork with the 38 mm tire,
where previously a 28 mm tire all by itself was a tight squeeze."

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/index.html

Doesn't sound too contracdictory to me....

This is not at all what the subject is. I'm talking about creating new
frames around 650B. Sheldon's talking about using 584 wheels with an
existing 622 frame.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Rick said:

Phil said:

dvt said:

bfd wrote:
> Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

Huh?

Note that the 650B crowd wants smaller wheels for a better ride,
while 29er MTB types want bigger wheels for a better ride. I don't
think we can have it both ways.

Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend, probably because
there is no good argument for bringing 650B back other than that
it's a different toy for the high-end crowd. These contradictory
arguments for it are now just plain entertaining.
--

You need to listen to his Interbike podcast. He states on that that
he is a fan of 650B.

That's exactly what I am talking about. He is a fan of it, but he's not
defending it.

Producing 622 frames/forks with good fender clearance is just as easy as
producing 584 frames/forks, except there are apparently three decent tire
choices for 584, whereas there are > 3 decent tire choices for 622. Go
ahead and cut your tire/rim/spoke choices if you like, I don't care. I just
think it's purposeless.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Rick said:

Phil said:

dvt wrote:
> bfd wrote:
>> Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.
>
> Huh?
>
> Note that the 650B crowd wants smaller wheels for a better ride,
> while 29er MTB types want bigger wheels for a better ride. I don't
> think we can have it both ways.

Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend, probably because
there is no good argument for bringing 650B back other than that
it's a different toy for the high-end crowd. These contradictory
arguments for it are now just plain entertaining.
--

You need to listen to his Interbike podcast. He states on that that
he is a fan of 650B.

That's exactly what I am talking about. He is a fan of it, but he's
not defending it.

Producing 622 frames/forks with good fender clearance is just as easy
as producing 584 frames/forks, except there are apparently three
decent tire choices for 584, whereas there are > 3 decent tire
choices for 622. Go ahead and cut your tire/rim/spoke choices if you
like, I don't care. I just think it's purposeless.

Whoops, I forgot that you can always "upgrade" the 584 wheels to 622. Uhh,
okay free burgers for everyone!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

bfd said:

What people don't realize is that the "magic" of 650B (584mm) tires is
that you can run 38mm wide tires at 50psi to get its fabled cushiness,
yet still have the same rolling diameter of a 700x23 tire. Many
consider this the best of both worlds.

The cushiness would be just as nice at 622/559. I don't think anyone except
those trying to retrofit old race bikes would really care if it has the same
rolling diameter as a 700x23 wheel.

Quoted message said:

In contrast, a 26" (559mm) tire is too small and doesn't roll like a
700. Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

This doesn't make sense at all. 584 is between 559 and 622. So 584 also
doesn't roll as well as 622 assuming the same width tire.

Quoted message said:

Those who
ride 650b wheels claim the Mitsuboshi Trimline or Panaracer Col de la
Vie make it feel like you're riding on "fast marshmellows". If you
want/need cushiness, then this is the size for you!

If those tires are so special, I'm sure it would be infinitely easier to
have them made for 559/622 than to try to establish an essentially new wheel
size standard (for the US) and build new frames and rims around that. It is
really weird to be hearing praise for the tire selection in the 584 size
when there are probably many tens if not hundreds of choices for 559/622
and, what, 3 tires (just going by Harris Cyclery site) to choose from in
584.

In article <[email hidden]>, Rick

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

bfd said:

Not according to people like Grant Petersen, Sheldon Brown, Jan Heine,
Mike Berry, Douglas Brooks and many, many others. There's a
mini-revival going on. Thing about it. Where else can you get the
"comfort" and "cushiness" of a 38mm wide tires pumped up to 50psi, that
has basically the same size as a 700x23? With 650B (584mm) tires, you
can do alot more than just ride on the road.

This is THE future of cycling. A tire size that allows fat, cushy tires
to be mounted with fenders and be ridden anywhere in comfort and style!

Here's lies the problem.. Fat cushy tires are already available with
26" wheels. Fenders friendly too. 26" fenders are available from
Planet BIke. 26" wheels are the defacto standard equipment for world
tourers, not 700c! So now, they want us to buy into the 650B tires?

Somehow, I smell desperate marketing people planning their next year's
sales quota.

David.

bfd said:

Phil states:

<Note this: Sheldon hasn't chimed in to defend>

Maybe not, but he has said this:

"I expected to like the 650B wheels, but I didn't expect to like them
as much as I do. They're a great combination of speed and comfort, very
sure-footed feeling"

"I must say I really do like the ride of the 584s. It's got Panaracer
Col de la Vie tires, 38 mm width, running at about 50 psi, which makes
a HUGE improvment in the ride of the bike. The smaller diameter
compared to the original 622 mm (700C) tires turns niggardly clearance
into fairly generous clearance, viz. the fact that I was even able to
mount an SKS/ESGE P35 fender on the Winwood fork with the 38 mm tire,
where previously a 28 mm tire all by itself was a tight squeeze."

http://sheldonbrown.org/iro/index.html

Doesn't sound too contracdictory to me....

He's comparing a 38mm tyre to a 25 mm tyre, not a 622-38 to a 584-38. Of
course the 38mm tyre is cushier.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Quoting bfd <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

What people don't realize is that the "magic" of 650B (584mm) tires is
that you can run 38mm wide tires at 50psi to get its fabled cushiness,
yet still have the same rolling diameter of a 700x23 tire. Many
consider this the best of both worlds.

Given the well known magic properties of that diameter, I suppose. What
rubbish.

Quoted message said:

In contrast, a 26" (559mm) tire is too small and doesn't roll like a
700. Further, a 700x35/38 tire is "harsher" than the 650x38.

More rubbish; larger wheels mean a softer ride; a 700x38 at a given
pressure will be marginally gentler than a 650x38.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Brieday, September.

Quoting bfd <[email hidden]>:
[Quoting Sheldon]

Quoted message said:

"I must say I really do like the ride of the 584s. It's got Panaracer
Col de la Vie tires, 38 mm width, running at about 50 psi, which makes
a HUGE improvment in the ride of the bike. The smaller diameter
compared to the original 622 mm (700C) tires turns niggardly clearance
into fairly generous clearance,

But _again_ that's about converting existing small-clearance 700C bikes
into 650B, which _again_ seems like a perfectly reasonable idea that
no-one is arguing with.

But new 650B? That doesn't make sense.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Brieday, September.

David Damerell said:

But _again_ that's about converting existing small-clearance 700C bikes
into 650B, which _again_ seems like a perfectly reasonable idea that
no-one is arguing with.

But new 650B? That doesn't make sense.

Well, I dunno. If you go with the idea that different sizes of bikes need
different sizes of wheels, and quite a few frame makers use 559 in smaller
bikes and 620 in larger ones, I suppose it could vaguely make sense to
have an in-between size. OTOH, I remain unconvinced that a 60 mm
difference is large enough to want a size in between.

Jasper

David Damerell said:

Quoting bfd <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

What people don't realize is that the "magic" of 650B (584mm) tires is
that you can run 38mm wide tires at 50psi to get its fabled cushiness,
yet still have the same rolling diameter of a 700x23 tire. Many
consider this the best of both worlds.

Given the well known magic properties of that diameter, I suppose. What
rubbish.

Well, you won't have to adjust your gearing.

Jasper

Dave asks:

<But new 650B? That doesn't make sense. >

But it does. If you want to keep 650B alive, why not start offering it
as a frame/complete bike. That will then get people to start looking at
it as *an alternative*, and with QBP distribution power, make 650B
tires and rims available for the masses!

bfd said:

Dave asks:

<But new 650B? That doesn't make sense. >

But it does. If you want to keep 650B alive, why not start offering it
as a frame/complete bike. That will then get people to start looking
at it as *an alternative*, and with QBP distribution power, make 650B
tires and rims available for the masses!

The cost for one of these Riv frames is prohibitive, so the masses is out of
the question.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training