Discovery in disarray.... ?

[cyclingheroes]

No DS has a career start like Bruyneel. Bruyneel still has his career ahead of him as a DS. Granted, Bruyneel did have LA as his main rider. What Bruyneel has done is remarkable.
But Bruyneel's real test is the next few years. Even though everyone sees Discovery in disarry, I see it as a year in which Bruyneel gets to see what he has. Which rider is going to step up? He also knows Hincapie and Eki are not too far from retirement. major changes are on the horizon.
The TDF is going to tell Bruyneel many things. Does he have a rider that can compete for the podium? Does he have to go outside DC's riders to find that man? [My personel opinion is yes. He needs to dump Spanish riders]
I feel next year he will go after a rider that can compete. The riders will line up , not because Bruyneel is there, but the fact that they may be designated team leader and the money.
As long as DC is the sponsor, the TDF is the only race that will count. The Classics/Giro/Vuelta are important to us as fans, but outside Europe they do not carry the weight that they should. And as we argue every fine point on this forum to "Jans gut", LA's "personality", Riis's "mind games" we forget that the sponsor dictates what the agenda of the team is. They are the silent "DS ".
Bruyneel has to be under some pressue to perform over the next few years because the Discovery sponsors contract must be coming up for a re-sign. And I think Discovery will be done with cycling.
I believe Riis was under pressure in the last little while. Seems to me he went thru a stressfull resigning.

Historically, I think the DS's job has gone thru a transformation. The riders of today have much more say in what they want to accomplish. The DS's of old were little dictators. I think Lemond had a lot to do with that.
Todays DS must deal with several specialized riders on each team. But Discovery and T-mobile did not do it that way. They focused on the TDF and one rider. And the last 7 years shows them both to be the 2 best teams.

As Lim said: some interesting points here. I think Bruyneel was an important piece in the puzzle that made LA a 7 time winner of the TdF. He wasn't (in my opinion) that important to make Savoldelli win the 2005 Giro. Now he has to build a new team with a new teamleader and he needs results in the TdF in order to keep the sponsor happy. Discovery is in serious trouble but i wouldn't be surprised when Bruyneel get the team back on track in 2007, depends on who is leaving and who joins the team in the coming 2 years.

The power of the sponsors is much bigger as many people think. At TM the company is doing all the press work, the people who decide if and when you get an interview with a rider are not paid by the team they are working for the company, as the whole website is made by TM (the company) and not by Olaf Ludwigs company (or untill last year Walter Godefroots company). In another thread i already wrote that Verschueren (DS of Unibet) had to give some Spanish riders a contract because Unibet (the company) wanted to expend in Spain. In the old days this was unthinkable, nobody was going to tell Peter Post what he has to do.

And yes your correct, the riders have more to say as in the old days. Most DS's where real dictators. In the old days sometimes riders just didn't listen. Peter Winnen didn't listen at his first Alpe d' Huez win, Godefroot, DS at Ijsboerke at that time, said to Winnen to take a bit out, Winnen didn't listen and had the biggest win of his carreer, he won the stage and was third of the overall in Paris. Godefroot was really angry at Peter.... for years! Steven Rooks had to leave at the Peter Post team because he didn't listen, after that he had great results with De Gibraldy (Rooks won LBL) which was a dictator as well, but he was a very good DS who managed to give difficult characters or maybe better strong characters more influence in tactical decisions and they performed better with the De Gibraldy team. Maybe he was the first DS who started to change the DS-riders relation in that way??

 

[wolfix]

[size=-1]The story in Velonews......

""Hamilton's alleged collaboration began with Fuentes soon after he left the U.S. Postal Service cycling team to join CSC for the 2002-03 seasons and continued upon his arrival at Phonak in the 2004 season."

They leave Discovery for the world of dopers. All these names out there and so far they haven't came across a Discovery name..... This is a week after the Discovery rider was vindicated for doping.



[/size]

 

[limerickman]

[size=-1]The story in Velonews......

""Hamilton's alleged collaboration began with Fuentes soon after he left the U.S. Postal Service cycling team to join CSC for the 2002-03 seasons and continued upon his arrival at Phonak in the 2004 season."

They leave Discovery for the world of dopers. All these names out there and so far they haven't came across a Discovery name..... This is a week after the Discovery rider was vindicated for doping.



[/size]

Wolf - let's not open the DC debate again.
We know that a clean rider will never beat a doper.

If the doping is a widespread as El Pais suggests - it is inconceivable that any clean rider did beat a doper in the last few years.

Cycling is in crisis - as you well know.
The teams/riders/managers/sponsors have got us to this point - with the willing conivance of the UCI.

 

[musette]

[size=-1]The story in Velonews......

""Hamilton's alleged collaboration began with Fuentes soon after he left the U.S. Postal Service cycling team to join CSC for the 2002-03 seasons and continued upon his arrival at Phonak in the 2004 season."

They leave Discovery for the world of dopers. All these names out there and so far they haven't came across a Discovery name..... This is a week after the Discovery rider was vindicated for doping.

[/size]

Yeah, this shows he was not collaborating with Fuentes at USPS.

 

[patch70]

Yeah, this shows he was not collaborating with Fuentes at USPS.

USPS had Dr Ferrari so no need for Dr Fuentes.

 

[rejobako]

We know that a clean rider will never beat a doper.

Actually, we don't know that. No one knows that. It's conjecture, because that's the way you'd like the world to be to justify your dislike of a particular cyclist. If you don't want the "DC debate" re-opened, stop baiting by claiming opinions as fact.

Or perhaps you have a link you'd like to share. (Rhetorical question -- you never do.)

 

[limerickman]

Actually, we don't know that. No one knows that. It's conjecture, because that's the way you'd like the world to be to justify your dislike of a particular cyclist.

It's not conjecture actually.

If you read statements by riders who have doped - they all say that their performance levels increased substantially and they performed beyond their (natural) limits.

Not to state the bleeding obvious - but that's why people dope!
In order to get a competitive advantage.

If you don't want the "DC debate" re-opened, stop baiting by claiming opinions as fact.

The truth hurts.

 

[rejobako]

It's not conjecture actually.

If you read statements by riders who have doped - they all say that their performance levels increased substantially and they performed beyond their (natural) limits.

Not to state the bleeding obvious - but that's why people dope!
In order to get a competitive advantage.

You previously said, very plainly:

We know that a clean rider will never beat a doper.

You now say that dopers take drugs to gain a competitive advantage to peform beyond their natural limits. No one denies that doping will allow a rider to perform better than he would otherwise. But your previous statement is that no clean rider will ever beat a doper. Those are far different statements.

 

[Rhubarb]

It's not conjecture actually.

It is conjecture! It can't be proven for sure one way or another.

The truth hurts.

And yes, all to often you portray your opinion as fact. Get over it!

 

[doctorSpoc]

USPS had Dr Ferrari so no need for Dr Fuentes.

c'mon, he couldn't even pay his Fuentes bill, how do you expect him to continue to afford the Ferrari bill without the USPS group discount??

 

[DV1976]

Ok Lets be more precise. That any doper would win any clean is probably an exaggeration. But i would think that that if the difference was anything up to 20% (the doper being less talented performance-wise by that much) then it is most likely true. And I doubt that in the professional peloton there are guys who are 20% better than anyone else...
BTW... Assuming that JU was in the client list of Dr Fuentes where does that leave LA? I mean 6 minutes over a dopeur with the "greatest natural talent" (according to LA) does say something about LA's methods... The question is what...

 

[whiteboytrash]

The sorry season of Discovery continues... T-Mobile notch up another win and the Discovery boys fall further and further back...... its going to be a long Tour and an even longer season for Discovery with no wins to their name.....

 

[bobke]

The sorry season of Discovery continues... T-Mobile notch up another win and the Discovery boys fall further and further back...... its going to be a long Tour and an even longer season for Discovery with no wins to their name.....

Kessler did a good ride.
Hmmmm....two days in a row strong enough to attack at the end of 2 of the tours longest stages, in 100 degree heat, drop Boonen and Boogerd like they were standing still.
Yes, very very strong ride.
A guy who I think has never won a race except a small one day race.

Sevilla and Jan may not have been the only two visiting Fuentes lets recall.
I wonder what Kessler's dogs name is?

 

[Orla_24]

The sorry season of Discovery continues... T-Mobile notch up another win and the Discovery boys fall further and further back...... its going to be a long Tour and an even longer season for Discovery with no wins to their name.....

They didn't really try though, did they?

BG was in yellow last stage, came in second on the prologue, his times are good - he wasn't going for the stage win today.

Maybe my cycling understand is a big lacking (and it really is - I'm a fan and a new one, too - not a racer) so help me figure it out - was it really the stage for any of the big contenders to show their strentgh? I mean, we didn't see Landis or Levi or any of the big names up there trying to get ahead, it seems like the GC contenders were playing it pretty easy today - no attacks yet.

GH and Savo are in the top 5, what more can Disco ask for at this stage?

The test would be the mountains.

I don't know much about Rogers, is he likely to podium?

 

[Mansmind]

They didn't really try though, did they?

BG was in yellow last stage, came in second on the prologue, his times are good - he wasn't going for the stage win today.

Maybe my cycling understand is a big lacking (and it really is - I'm a fan and a new one, too - not a racer) so help me figure it out - was it really the stage for any of the big contenders to show their strentgh? I mean, we didn't see Landis or Levi or any of the big names up there trying to get ahead, it seems like the GC contenders were playing it pretty easy today - no attacks yet.

GH and Savo are in the top 5, what more can Disco ask for at this stage?

The test would be the mountains.

I don't know much about Rogers, is he likely to podium?

You're right. WBT just had a chance to throw a dart with T-Mobile's stage win today, and he's not one to pass up an opportunity. Probably will not see a "big" effort from the GC guys until the time trial (stage 7).

 

[patch70]

I don't know much about Rogers, is he likely to podium?

Very, very unlikely. He is a decent time trialler and an okay climber and is thus talked about as a GC type rider but just doesn't seem to have the killer instinct.

 

[JRMDC]

They didn't really try though, did they?

Orla, you just joined the forum, you have yet to master the intricacies of the pro-DC/anti-DC forces, the pro-LA/anti-LA forces, the ...

well, those are the big 2!

Let's just say that this thread in particular has nothing to do with an honest, balanced assessment of "disarray." Just people having their fun venting against DC.

 

[Orla_24]

Orla, you just joined the forum, you have yet to master the intricacies of the pro-DC/anti-DC forces, the pro-LA/anti-LA forces, the ...

well, those are the big 2!

Let's just say that this thread in particular has nothing to do with an honest, balanced assessment of "disarray." Just people having their fun venting against DC.

Well, I HAVE been following this forum for a while so I do know the way it is divided, but I'm still busy figuring out who are the major players in each team

 

[cyclingheroes]

The sorry season of Discovery continues... T-Mobile notch up another win and the Discovery boys fall further and further back...... its going to be a long Tour and an even longer season for Discovery with no wins to their name.....[/QUOT]

To behonest, if it goes on like this the whole peloton could be in disarray...

 

[whiteboytrash]

Well, I HAVE been following this forum for a while so I do know the way it is divided, but I'm still busy figuring out who are the major players in each team

Stick with me and you'll be fine !


To be honest Landis, Mayo, Levi and Hincapie were all struggling yesterday and this Tour is different than previous years... riders need to be up the front grabbing time bonuses when they can... I have watched the first 3 stages in full and there is something exciting in the peleton. With the dismantling of the Ferrari charged Discovery there is a new lease of life in the bunch. Riders are going for it and not sitting back waiting for Discovery to time trail the peleton to the last 30km.... even the sprints are chaotic... I like it.... this year the rider who wears yellow won't win it in the traditional way... the rider who wins will come from a team that is not strong... I think Rogers has a big chance of a podium... Virenque touted him as a future winner when he rode for Quickstep... he is good and he works hard..... mark my words we the winner of this Tour will not come from the usual suspects....

One final point... T-Mobile have suffered some hits over the last few days but at least they have to he balls to publicly state there riders will not work with any doctor who has a shady past... this is in stark contrast to Discovery who still work with Ferrari and worst still won't admit they do... they are leaving a trail of lies and deception where-ever they go... Discovery is not in disarray on the medical front but still do not have a win to their name this year therefore are in disarray on the road.