Discovery in disarray.... ?

[limerickman]

Well, DC won 1 stage and has the blue jersey (Combination Classification) in Milan.

A very poor return for a team containing the defending Giro title holder.

And a very poor return for a team who claimed that they were going to try to defend the title.

Hmm, then, I wonder what we should say to TM -- whatever outcome DC achieved, TM achieved less.

DC were attempting to retain the Giro title.
TMO never targetted the Giro for overall victory.

A subtle but distinct difference.

If one never targets anything but the Tour de France, and hasn't won the Tour since 1997, is one absolved of poor performances in all the other races one doesn't target?

If you look at TMO's record - and I've provided that same analysis before when you made your infamous "shitty management" jibe - TMO's TDF record,
TMO's CYCLING SEASON record is top class between 1996-2004.
It's the best record there is the peloton between 1996-2004.

 

[musette]

"It's the best record there is the peloton between 1996-2004."

Are you kidding -- USPS/DC had a much better record, even if you include the 1996-1998 period!

 

[Dead Star]

"It's the best record there is the peloton between 1996-2004."

Are you kidding -- USPS/DC had a much better record, even if you include the 1996-1998 period!

yeah, but you seem to completely ignore T-Mobile's wins in the Classics, which don't seem to register much importance to you! :O.

 

[saluki]

TMO never targetted the Giro for overall victory.

And why wouldn't the supposedly best team not target the Giro? Got nobody? The only reason a team wouldn't taget a win in any race is if they had no reasonable expectation of winning. That doesn't exactly make them a great team.

 

[cyclingheroes]

And why wouldn't the supposedly best team not target the Giro? Got nobody? The only reason a team wouldn't taget a win in any race is if they had no reasonable expectation of winning. That doesn't exactly make them a great team.

But why do you post under the name Saluki? The first post you made was after the TTT (Giro), the day that Mussette disapeared for a few days....

 

[rejobako]

And why wouldn't the supposedly best team not target the Giro? Got nobody? The only reason a team wouldn't taget a win in any race is if they had no reasonable expectation of winning. That doesn't exactly make them a great team.

I think it's pretty clear that TM had its sights set on peaking for the TdF. That being said, I do find it interesting that those who, in the past, have criticized other teams for focusing on the TdF to the exclusion of the other grand tours are now nodding their heads at the great wisdom of TM for doing exactly that.

Similarly, I think it's funny that at the outset of the Giro, some of you were lambasting Disco for being so obvious in sending an inferior team to the Giro to support Il Falco, and now those same people are crowing about Disco's "failure" to win it. Can't have it both ways. Personally, I think there's a truth in the middle ground somewhere. I think Bruyneel hedged his bets and sent a respectable (but not superlative) team with Salvo, hoping to have some of the other riders peaking for the TdF and thinking Salvo might be able to win it anyway -- like he did last year.

But Basso was obviously too strong not only for Salvo, but everyone else in the field. Salvo took his shots at trying to bridge the gap, and suffered for it, finishing a gallant (in my opinion) 5th anyway. Could have been easy for him to just mail it in when the outcome was inevitable, but he fought all the way through the last mountain stage.

You win some, you lose some. Discovery hasn't had a great season so far, but I don't see any reason to suggest they are in "disarray" heading toward Paris any more than TM or any other team that doesn't have Ivan Basso as its anchorman. He's entering the peak of his career, and I suspect there's a good possibility that all of you who cursed the name Armstrong because he made the TdF "boring" are going to be twiddling your thumbs again this year.

 

[limerickman]

"It's the best record there is the peloton between 1996-2004."

Are you kidding -- USPS/DC had a much better record, even if you include the 1996-1998 period!

TMO's record for the entire season 1996-2004 is far, far superior to DC/USPS.

I can repost the entire TMO palmares for the period 1996/2004 - as I did when you made your infamous comment about "shitty management" thread.

If I recall, you also ran from that discussion too.

 

[limerickman]

I think it's pretty clear that TM had its sights set on peaking for the TdF. That being said, I do find it interesting that those who, in the past, have criticized other teams for focusing on the TdF to the exclusion of the other grand tours are now nodding their heads at the great wisdom of TM for doing exactly that.

Similarly, I think it's funny that at the outset of the Giro, some of you were lambasting Disco for being so obvious in sending an inferior team to the Giro to support Il Falco, and now those same people are crowing about Disco's "failure" to win it. Can't have it both ways. Personally, I think there's a truth in the middle ground somewhere. I think Bruyneel hedged his bets and sent a respectable (but not superlative) team with Salvo, hoping to have some of the other riders peaking for the TdF and thinking Salvo might be able to win it anyway -- like he did last year.

But Basso was obviously too strong not only for Salvo, but everyone else in the field. Salvo took his shots at trying to bridge the gap, and suffered for it, finishing a gallant (in my opinion) 5th anyway. Could have been easy for him to just mail it in when the outcome was inevitable, but he fought all the way through the last mountain stage.

You win some, you lose some. Discovery hasn't had a great season so far, but I don't see any reason to suggest they are in "disarray" heading toward Paris any more than TM or any other team that doesn't have Ivan Basso as its anchorman. He's entering the peak of his career, and I suspect there's a good possibility that all of you who cursed the name Armstrong because he made the TdF "boring" are going to be twiddling your thumbs again this year.

Personally, I prefer teams to concentrate on all races for the duration of the cycling season.

To me neither Ullrich or Armstrong are anywhere near the all time greats such as Merckx, Indurain, Coppi, Hinault, Anquetil, Kelly.

In terms of the quality of the T'sDF since 1990, except for a few editions, the races have failed to live up to it's prior reputation.

 

[tcklyde]

Personally, I prefer teams to concentrate on all races for the duration of the cycling season.

To me neither Ullrich or Armstrong are anywhere near the all time greats such as Merckx, Indurain, Coppi, Hinault, Anquetil, Kelly.

In terms of the quality of the T'sDF since 1990, except for a few editions, the races have failed to live up to it's prior reputation.

I'm hoping the new generation will continue to ride more races. Cunego has raced throughout the season and won a classic in the fall. Basso and Valverde have also raced in classics and early season stage races to win -- not just for training. Landis seems to have made a commitment to race hard in the American stage races. And Basso riding the Giro is a very good thing.

 

[limerickman]

I'm hoping the new generation will continue to ride more races. Cunego has raced throughout the season and won a classic in the fall. Basso and Valverde have also raced in classics and early season stage races to win -- not just for training. Landis seems to have made a commitment to race hard in the American stage races. And Basso riding the Giro is a very good thing.

I agree T.

Valverde's two classic wins, Cunego winning Lombadria are welcome changes.
Landis Paris-Nice too.

I have to say that's why I always favoured the roadmen like Freire, Zabel, Bettini. They race all season.
Freire really doesn't get the coverage that he deserves (three times world champion) in my opinion.

 

[bobke]

Discovery Channel Management have set up a phone help line to assist fans of the team to overcome the abysmal display at the Giro.

The number is: 1800 10 10 10 - won nothing, won nothing, won nothing....

Exactly, but after this week maybe we know why!!!!!!!!

Oh give me a home, where the buffalo roam
where the deer and the antelope play...

the buffalo needs food in Italy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rejobako]

Personally, I prefer teams to concentrate on all races for the duration of the cycling season.

I agree, although realistically speaking, professional cycling is like every other occupation in the sense that there is increased specialization among the participants, which I think affects the teams as well. Certain teams are built for Grand Tour success, others for the classics, etc. In the case of Disco, of course, because so many Americans identify professional cycling with one race, they have concentrated on a single event above all others. I still think it's a minor miracle that Savoldelli managed to win the Giro last year despite the disadvantages of being on a team that was built for one man to win one race.

If I had my way, now that their raison d'etre has changed, I'd like to see Discovery spread out its resources and not focus so exclusively on the Grand Tours, particularly the TdF. American cycling can only benefit from exposing the fans to the world that exists beyond the 3 week races. That being said, it would be folly for them not to do everything possible to have some success in the TdF. Other success would be welcome, but the TdF ratings in July pays the bills.

 

[JRMDC]

If I had my way, now that their raison d'etre has changed, I'd like to see Discovery spread out its resources and not focus so exclusively on the Grand Tours, particularly the TdF. American cycling can only benefit from exposing the fans to the world that exists beyond the 3 week races. That being said, it would be folly for them not to do everything possible to have some success in the TdF. Other success would be welcome, but the TdF ratings in July pays the bills.

They have also focused on the Belgian classics, and not just with Hincapie, but with Devolder and Hoste (and Hammond?). I would like them to focus on the later spring classics more; outside of LA trying to win Amstel, they haven't been strong in those races and haven't tried to develop talent for them (or tried and failed?).

 

[saluki]

But why do you post under the name Saluki? The first post you made was after the TTT (Giro), the day that Mussette disapeared for a few days....

A saluki is an Arabic coursing dog. They are structured something like a greyhound, except lighter and better at running long distances. I own three of them.

 

[saluki]

Discovery Channel Management have set up a phone help line to assist fans of the team to overcome the abysmal display at the Giro.

The number is: 1800 10 10 10 - won nothing, won nothing, won nothing....

And T Mobile has set up a food bank to help restock Jan's refrigorator. Call 1-800-EAT EAT EAT.

 

[saluki]

TD is fighting for his own sake on GC and to prove he can be DC team leader in the Vuelta. So, they were certainly motivated for different reasons.

I think you forgot about TD having the flu during the race.

 

[rejobako]

A saluki is an Arabic coursing dog. They are structured something like a greyhound, except lighter and better at running long distances. I own three of them.

And it's also the mascot of Southern Illinois University.

 

[limerickman]

TD is fighting for his own sake on GC and to prove he can be DC team leader in the Vuelta. So, they were certainly motivated for different reasons.

I think you forgot about TD having the flu during the race.

you're replying to yourself.

 

[musette]

Don't worry, L. I always post in my own name, because I don't need to post any other way to expose the weaknesses in your positions.

And, yes, I have a life, including vacation to places spent with people I adore. So I am not always looking out for ways to probe the weaknesses in your arguments.

 

[limerickman]

Don't worry, L. I always post in my own name, because I don't need to post any other way to expose the weaknesses in your positions.

The forum don't agree that you do.

And in respect of your points of view on matters cycling - that debate was won by me a long time back.