Bush biking toward nowhere?



Like Iraq...

If you want to see what our efforts in Afghanistan achieved, read the
best seller: "Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini. It's a sad story of
remembrance of what Kabul was when he left as a youth and what has
been made of it. When asked by Terri Gross whether there is a
possibility of a democratic government, after some thought, he
answered "No". We don't have that answer in Baghdad yet but it's
close.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-8122705-9490559
http://www.afghan-web.com/index.html

> Ride bike!


Jobst Brandt
 
Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Mark Hickey" wrote: (clip)I'd wager most people don't know she DID
> already meet with GWB). (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I knew about it. I also know the nature of that meeting, where GWB
> made a hasty appearance. There is NO WAY she could have presented
> him with her perfectly valid questions in that setting.


Is that why she praised him afterwards and put a photo of him kissing her on
the cheek on her website? (Since pulled, of course, but published around
lately.)

Also... http://www.thereporter.com/republished

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy said
after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss.
And I know he's a man of faith."

The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke
about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for
something. They also spoke of their faith.

The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.

For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They
laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.

For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.

"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being
together," Cindy said.

******
Now she gives a drastically different account of the EXACT SAME MEETING.

> By now you've got me labeled as another uninformed and biased person.
> Well, from YOUR informed and unbiased vantage point, tell me what is
> wrong with the questions she has for President Bush.


Have you read ANYTHING she's said in the past two weeks? She's surrounded
(or rather WAS -- they've since tried to tone it down) by people with
impeachment and chickenhawk and much worse signs. You think she has "honest
questions" for the President? Or is she out to embarrass him, and
succeeding with an all-too-willing press?

Try this:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124500/?nav=mpp
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Not only that, but GWB fired the man who knew and had experience in
> such matters, Colin Powell, when he advised against attacking Iraq.


Why do you lie like that, Jobst (Brandt @ Stanford...yeah, we know)?

Bush did NOT fire Powell. You can make your blatantly biased points without
resorting to distortions (OK, maybe you can't) --- but flat out untruths are
unnecessary and discredit your warped opinions that much more.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/15/powell/ (one of about a jilliion)
 
Rich wrote:

> First, Bill Clinton did not appease Bin Laden, he actaully tried
> killing him with a cruise missile, for which he was ridiculed in the
> press.


Two words: Able Danger.

> Secondly, Iraq had NOTHING to do with Bin Ladon or 9/11. It was Bush
> and his chicken-hawks that linked Iraq with 9/11


This AGAIN? That Iraq had ties to terrorist groups (including AQ) does not
mean it had any direct part in the 9-11 attacks.
 
Pat wrote:
>> C Sheehan's son Casey volunteered to go into the Army. He further
>> volunteered to go in Iraq where it was dangerous.
>>
>> He was not forced to go. He was not drafted.
>>
>> C sheehan has her own agenda and is using her son's death for
>> political gain.
>>
>> Why doesn't she run for office. The fall elections are coming up.
>>
>> Then, she would be a Congressperson and really have a say.

>
> Tom, you've been listening to too much hate radio. Ask yourself, "Why
> is the right wing so desperate to smear/slam/slur this grieving
> mother who has every right to question the "leader of the free world"
> about his taking us into war?".


Despite being a top-posting whiner re. parks, Tom's right about this one.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124500/?nav=mpp

Bill "hey, I'm just like Jobst when he gets a new link* -- keep posting it
and posting it" S.

*at least it isn't that friggin' picture of himself leaning into a curve for
like the 905th time
 
On 2005-08-18, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pat who? writes:
>
>>> George Bush gives bicyclists a bad name.

>
>> He gives Texans a bad name.

>
> Forget about bicycles and Texas, he is destroying the USA as a law
> abiding member of the world, not only its name. War and hate mongers!
> Why do you think the whole nation is so polarized and in-your-face
> rude. They take their cues from the top.
>
> Jobst Brandt


It's in his genes. I goes way back to Bert Walker and Prescott Bush
supplying both sides of WWII. They should have been charged with treason
just like GW should be charged with war crimes by not abiding with the
UN.
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Sheehan is just another example, and the media has pretty much made it
> impossible for 90% of the country to have an intelligent discussion
> about her by selectively eliminating facts (like her prior
> well-received meeting with Bush, for example - I'd wager most people
> don't know she DID already meet with GWB).


Just what is [another] meeting with Bush supposed to accomplish?

She claims the intelligence failures over Iraq didn't come to
light until after her previous meeting with him, so now a new
meeting is required. Huh??? She's also demanded the withdrawal
of Israeli forces from the West Bank.

Sounds to me there is more to this than the death of her son.

She, or perhaps others who have gathered around her, are now
using her own son's death for their own political agendas. What
a shame. Can't think of more disrespect being shown to her son
than what she and others are doing in his name. He joined the
service of his own volition, actually went to Iraq rather than
suddenly "finding conscience" and asking for political asylum in
Canada, and gets his choices used to feed a political movement.

Apparently her husband has had enough. He's divorcing her.

And as far as Bush and bicycles go, you'd think the bicycling
community would be pleased to have a President interested in
the activity, as it seems he truly is.

But nope, he's the "wrong type of bicyclist" or "gives bicyclists
a bad name". There's joyful glee when he crashes which is taken
as confirmation that he's a dummy. More warping of events to suit
a political need.

At least he doesn't seem to show interest in the bike for public
purposes such as Kerry during a Presidential run or at the Tour
de France.

I think Kerry probably is a genuine bike enthusiast. I just have
never heard much about his biking until the last election,
after which, it's disappeared again. And I'm in MA so he's a
watched persona here.

Wonder if there are a couple Serottas hanging in the rafters of
the Senate parking garage?


SMH
 
Chuck wrote:

> It's in his genes. I goes way back to Bert Walker and Prescott Bush
> supplying both sides of WWII. They should have been charged with treason
> just like GW should be charged with war crimes by not abiding with the
> UN.


"Abiding with the UN"???

Ahh boy!

Where were you when Kosovo flared up? (We're still there and in Bosnia
ya know).

Like to give me the UN resolution number that authorized that?

And this Bush supplying the Nazis ****! Read some other web sites
beyond Michael Moore's will ya?


SMH
 
: > Tom, you've been listening to too much hate radio. Ask yourself, "Why
: > is the right wing so desperate to smear/slam/slur this grieving
: > mother who has every right to question the "leader of the free world"
: > about his taking us into war?".
:
: Despite being a top-posting whiner re. parks, Tom's right about this one.
:
: http://slate.msn.com/id/2124500/?nav=mpp
:
: Bill "hey, I'm just like Jobst when he gets a new link* -- keep posting it
: and posting it" S.

Okay, I read that article. Basically, the guy is saying "how come she has
all this free time?" and "How dare she try to speak for her son?" Tom's not
right. He can disagree with her point of view, but this smearing of her
character that the far right wing is wrong. Yesterday, I heard Glenn Beck
call her a "tragedy ****". That's going beyond the pale, there.

Pat in TX
 
:
: > Not only that, but GWB fired the man who knew and had experience in
: > such matters, Colin Powell, when he advised against attacking Iraq.
:
: Why do you lie like that, Jobst (Brandt @ Stanford...yeah, we know)?
:
: Bush did NOT fire Powell. You can make your blatantly biased points
without
: resorting to distortions (OK, maybe you can't) --- but flat out untruths
are
: unnecessary and discredit your warped opinions that much more.

Jobst is looking at the bigger picture. Maybe Bush didn't use the exact
words, "I fire you", but he and his inner circle froze Colin Powell out of
the "loop" (as Bush's father claimed about Iran Contra). They did
everything they could to marginalize Powell until he stepped aside. It is
juvenile to say that "Bush did not fire Powell" when his actions were the
direct cause of Powell leaving the government post.

Pat in TX
 
: The nation is so polarized and rude because waaaaay too many people on
: the right and on the left believe all the nonsense their respective
: talking heads feed them (that should be obvious reading these
: threads).
:
: Sheehan is just another example, and the media has pretty much made it
: impossible for 90% of the country to have an intelligent discussion
: about her by selectively eliminating facts (like her prior
: well-received meeting with Bush, for example - I'd wager most people
: don't know she DID already meet with GWB).
:
: Those who only listen to one talking head (be that Limbaugh or
: Franken) don't have a clue what's really going on. The sad thing is
: that most of 'em don't WANT to have a clue if it disagrees with their
: position.
:
: Sad.
:
: Mark Hickey

I agree with your post. I am amazed that so many of the right wing news
media like our "own" Mark Davis have taken an attack dog stance on the
woman's protest. All they would have to do is ignore her, but no, they are
attacking on every front and attacking visiously. Sometimes I wonder if the
people who listen to the Limbaughs, Glenn Becks, and Mark Davises of the
world are held in contempt by those same talking heads. I can just
visualize Mark Davis saying, "Geez, this is easy! Those listeners will
believe any darn thing I say without question!"

Pat in TX
 
"Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>Surely you jest.


Not at all

> First, Bill Clinton did not appease Bin Laden, he actaully tried killing
> him with a cruise missile, for which he was ridiculed in the press.


Ridiculed for such a failure, using a multi-million dollar cruise missle to
blow up a few tents in the desert without any real intelligent data as to
who was there.

> Clinton was wayyyyyy to smart to think a middle-eastern, largly muslim
> country could be invaded and converted into a democracy by the U.S.


Clinton didn't have time to think about what was going on in the Middle
East, he was to busy playing around in the Whitehouse, the government and
office was nothing but an amusement park for him.

> Rich
 
[email protected] wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>> The nation is so polarized and rude because waaaaay too many people on
>> the right and on the left believe all the nonsense their respective
>> talking heads feed them (that should be obvious reading these
>> threads).
>>
>> Sheehan is just another example, and the media has pretty much made it
>> impossible for 90% of the country to have an intelligent discussion
>> about her by selectively eliminating facts (like her prior
>> well-received meeting with Bush, for example - I'd wager most people
>> don't know she DID already meet with GWB).

>
>I know she did, and I know something about the circumstances. Good
>job, W. Lasso a grieving mother into posing for your mindless
>patriotism tableau.


Oh give me a break... the POTUS takes time to meet with a grieving
mother and "that's a bad thing" in Frank's book. Better if he didn't?
Or perhaps he should invite each family over to the White House for a
month, and let them share the stage with him during all press
conferences?

>> Those who only listen to one talking head (be that Limbaugh or
>> Franken) don't have a clue what's really going on. The sad thing is
>> that most of 'em don't WANT to have a clue if it disagrees with their
>> position.
>>
>> Sad.

>
>I'm still waiting for the Limbaugh fans to say "We were wrong. There
>were no WMDs."


Actually, there WERE WMDs - no one (who's ever read anything on the
subject) would disagree with that. We just don't know what happened
to them.

>I'm still waiting for them to say "We engaged in an immoral invasion on
>false pretenses."


You might have quite a wait on your hands.

>And I'm still waiting for them to notice that it's Saudis, not Iraqis,
>who flew planes into buildings, AND who bombed subways in London.


Are you building the future invasion plans?

>If they ever do notice, perhaps they can explain why we invaded Iraq,
>but continue to shovel money at the Saudis.


You might look over the UN documents on why we invaded Iraq (doesn't
take a rocket scientist to figure it out). And the Saudis (hardly a
model society) are at least cracking down on terrorism enough to
become targets themselves, as opposed to the Baathist regime that
openly supported terrorism.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
[email protected] wrote:

>Mark Hickey writes:


>> Those who only listen to one talking head (be that Limbaugh or
>> Franken) don't have a clue what's really going on. The sad thing is
>> that most of 'em don't WANT to have a clue if it disagrees with
>> their position.

>
>It's not about agreeing or disagreeing but what GWB has done to our
>nation. Lies about torture,


Any citation, Jobst - are are you just parroting your favorite talking
head?

> lies about WMD, lies about terror cells
>in Saddam Hussein's government


Are you capable of discerning a difference between receiving less than
accurate intelligence and lying? It doesn't seem so. Again, the
bipartisan commissions have picked over the runup to the war with a
fine tooth comb and have universally concluded that you are wrong.

>and lies about why we are destroying
>Iraq then and now. The whole sad mess is going to anarchy.


We did far less damage to Iraq than Saddam had done (excluding his
palaces of course), and far less than any war of that scale had ever
done to the civilian sector. Blaming the current destruction on the
US is a bit like blaming the cops for a riot.

> Iraq has
>become the center for world terror and we are not the better for it.
>As I said, I cannot see how anyone can defend this policy. It's not
>about right or left wing talk shows. It's the government itself.


Have you ever taken the time to ponder exactly WHY the terrorists are
so intensely involved in disrupting the democratization of Iraq?
They're not targeting the coalition forces much any more, but are
desperately trying to prevent democracy from working? Because they
(unlike you, apparently) realize that if Afghanistan and Iraq become
successful democracies their time is over, finished, kaput.

>Ride bike!


Beats this!

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

>Jobst Brandt
 
[email protected] wrote:

>Like Iraq...
>
>If you want to see what our efforts in Afghanistan achieved, read the
>best seller: "Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini. It's a sad story of
>remembrance of what Kabul was when he left as a youth and what has
>been made of it. When asked by Terri Gross whether there is a
>possibility of a democratic government, after some thought, he
>answered "No". We don't have that answer in Baghdad yet but it's
>close.
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-8122705-9490559
>http://www.afghan-web.com/index.html


The link didn't work.

Does his book take into account the ravages of Russia's occupation
(historians might want to compare that one with ours), and the rule of
the Taliban? I'm assuming Mr. hosseini is more than 20 years old, and
didn't leave just before the US took out the Taliban.

Or perhaps he longs for the good ol' days when girls were kept out of
schools, women dressed in potato bags, and religious nonconformists
were strung up in the local soccer field?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Good
> >job, W. Lasso a grieving mother into posing for your mindless
> >patriotism tableau.

>
> Oh give me a break... the POTUS takes time to meet with a grieving
> mother and "that's a bad thing" in Frank's book. Better if he didn't?
> Or perhaps he should invite each family over to the White House for a
> month, and let them share the stage with him during all press
> conferences?


Something like that. Or maybe a compromise position: At least let the
public see the caskets coming home. At least let them see the faces of
those who have really sacrificed for this astounding mistake.

As it is, this is a nice, sanitary war for oil. It's our patriotic
duty to keep shopping. My God, don't consider conserving oil! Why,
anything smaller than a Ford F-100 would be unpatriotic, because it
couldn't carry enough magnetic ribbons!

Oh, and don't mind those oil company profit sheets. Don't mind that we
never _declared_ war. Don't pay attention to those grieving mothers.
Let's all just take a month off - maybe invite our Saudi friends to an
oil-fueled barbecue.



> >I'm still waiting for the Limbaugh fans to say "We were wrong. There
> >were no WMDs."

>
> Actually, there WERE WMDs - no one (who's ever read anything on the
> subject) would disagree with that. We just don't know what happened
> to them.


Mark, that's pitiful. The claim was that there were WMDs ready to go
in 45 minutes. The claim was that we had to invade ASAP to prevent
Saddam using them on other countries.

You will apparently be the last man alive to admit that was totally
false.

>
> >I'm still waiting for them to say "We engaged in an immoral invasion on
> >false pretenses."

>
> You might have quite a wait on your hands.


I already have. Morality is out the window when there's money to be
made.

> >And I'm still waiting for them to notice that it's Saudis, not Iraqis,
> >who flew planes into buildings, AND who bombed subways in London.

>
> Are you building the future invasion plans?


Nope. Although this is beyond you, I don't believe in taking over
entire countries based on foggy intelligence. Preemptive attacks don't
meet the centuries-old definition of a "just war."

> >If they ever do notice, perhaps they can explain why we invaded Iraq,
> >but continue to shovel money at the Saudis.

>
> You might look over the UN documents on why we invaded Iraq (doesn't
> take a rocket scientist to figure it out).


:) Yet somehow, almost the entire UN - hell, the entire world -
decided against us. We managed to get a few hundred personnel out of
the countries that we could hit up the hardest. It doesn't take a
rocket scientist to know why.


> And the Saudis (hardly a
> model society) are at least cracking down on terrorism enough to
> become targets themselves, as opposed to the Baathist regime that
> openly supported terrorism.


Whoa! Did they crack down on those guys that attacked London? Are
there no more of them waiting around in Saudi Arabia? Are their
aggressive fundamantalist training camps now out of commission?

And say - what exactly HAVE we said to the Saudis about the fact that
they seem to be sending out more civilian killers than anybody?
(Excepting us, of course...)

Seems to me the only thing we've told them is "We'll take another few
million barrels of your oil, please. Price is no object."

- Frank Krygowski
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Like Iraq...
>
> If you want to see what our efforts in Afghanistan achieved, read the
> best seller: "Kite Runner" by Khaled Hosseini. It's a sad story of
> remembrance of what Kabul was when he left as a youth and what has
> been made of it. When asked by Terri Gross whether there is a
> possibility of a democratic government, after some thought, he
> answered "No". We don't have that answer in Baghdad yet but it's
> close.


Excellent book. But nor RWW would ever read it.
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Have you ever taken the time to ponder exactly WHY the terrorists are
> so intensely involved in disrupting the democratization of Iraq?
> They're not targeting the coalition forces much any more, but are
> desperately trying to prevent democracy from working? Because they
> (unlike you, apparently) realize that if Afghanistan and Iraq become
> successful democracies their time is over, finished, kaput.


It's not about democracy, it's not about oil -- it's a crusade vs. jihad
thing. I don't want my kids (or anyone else's) to be cannon fodder in a
religious war. GWB & his Christian right are just replaying the middle ages.

Over time, people will see through tyrannies like Communism and
theocracy, but it's too expensive in blood and money to push the issue.
It will take a long time yet for people to get beyond irrational and
divisive ideology/theology. We're still in the dark ages. The "my god
vs. your god" isn't worth me or mine dying for, especially when I don't
have a god in the fight. Besides the Islamic countries, Israel and the
US have a bit of evolving to do. We're cultural hillbillies.