Wrong to confront?

Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:41:43 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

Eric S. Sande said:

Of course I didn't have a pen.

I carry one now, but I'd hate to be caught in a gun-fight with nothing
but my Krypto lock.

Be careful out there. There's a lot of "empty boats".
--
zk

Eric S. Sande said:

Imagine my surprise when I discovered two middle-aged church ladies
operating this engine of intimidation,

Church ladies can be unbelievably vicious when in control of a motor
vehicle. Do not obstruct them from their devotions--they will mow you down
while praying that God damns your soul to Hell at the same time. They
usually don't take kindly to being spoken to by gutterpunk cyclists--even
when that same gutterpunk cyclist happens to be a coreligionist.

I have always been surprised at just how much ill-will lurks within
churchgoers. The kiss of peace is forgotten once the time to pull out of
the parking lot comes around; it's every man for himself, and the Devil
take the hindmost.

The one instance I can recall where I've had a motorist actively bent on
causing me harm was that infamous Sunday which saw me and my brother riding
to church. An old lady drove up behind us, honked, drove up along side and
then actually swerved her car to the right while looking at us and waving
frantically, and honking. Her intention was to push us right off the
road--which she did.

She turns into the same church parking lot we turn into. Since we're
cyclists, we're locking up our bikes just as she walks to the door. She is
shaking with holy wrath: What business have I endangering that boy by
taking him out onto the highway?

The whole mess reminds me of G.K. Chesterton's old saw that the trouble with
Christianity was not that it was tried once and abandoned; but that it had
never been attempted in the first place at all.

-Luigi

--
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

Eric S. Sande said:

They lay on the horn. Major horn blowing.

What they don't know is that I have this road timed, clocked and
dialed in as far as lights and traffic are concerned.

Blow as you may, I'll be in Scotland afore ye.

Quoted message said:

So it was. I stopped, got off, and pulled my trusty Kryptonite
EVO 2000 out of the pannier pocket. I hung it on my bar and walked
up to the (natch) SUV.

At this point I was not interested in a violent confrontation, all
I wanted was a valuable dialogue. But I was spitting mad.

And I did not know what subhuman scum were piloting the offending
vehicle, hence the Kryptonite.

I only get mad at drivers who ignore traffic safety and because of it
nearly gets me killed or injured. When getting honked at from behind I
try to let the driver pass even pulling over if necessary to
accommodate. So what, if this causes me to lose a couple of minutes at a
signal light. Approaching a driver after displaying a blunt metal object
is way over-the-top. Control your rage. I think this incident is one way
"the man upstairs" is trying to remind you of what is important and what
is trivial.

Kenny Lee

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
|| Eric S. Sande wrote:
||
||| Imagine my surprise when I discovered two middle-aged church ladies
||| operating this engine of intimidation,
||
|| Church ladies can be unbelievably vicious when in control of a motor
|| vehicle. Do not obstruct them from their devotions--they will mow
|| you down while praying that God damns your soul to Hell at the same
|| time. They usually don't take kindly to being spoken to by
|| gutterpunk cyclists--even when that same gutterpunk cyclist happens
|| to be a coreligionist.
||
|| I have always been surprised at just how much ill-will lurks within
|| churchgoers. The kiss of peace is forgotten once the time to pull
|| out of the parking lot comes around; it's every man for himself,
|| and the Devil take the hindmost.
||
|| The one instance I can recall where I've had a motorist actively
|| bent on causing me harm was that infamous Sunday which saw me and my
|| brother riding to church. An old lady drove up behind us, honked,
|| drove up along side and then actually swerved her car to the right
|| while looking at us and waving frantically, and honking. Her
|| intention was to push us right off the road--which she did.
||
|| She turns into the same church parking lot we turn into. Since we're
|| cyclists, we're locking up our bikes just as she walks to the door.
|| She is shaking with holy wrath: What business have I endangering
|| that boy by taking him out onto the highway?
||
|| The whole mess reminds me of G.K. Chesterton's old saw that the
|| trouble with Christianity was not that it was tried once and
|| abandoned; but that it had never been attempted in the first place
|| at all.

Wow....I had a very similar experience on my first trip out riding in the
roads....I could not believe it. I still tell people of it today. Amazing.

But to the OP: don't confront people. It's not good practice for someone on
a bicycle. You sound like the cyclist who supposedly pulled out a gun on a
supposedly road-raging truck driver, ramping the situation up to serious
levels. Just exactly who is displaying road rage in that case and in
yours?

Eric S. Sande wrote:
|| The scenario is I'm riding East on L Street in moderate traffic. This
|| is in rush hour, traffic moving at about 10-15 mph.
||
|| I'm centered in the leftmost clear lane (L Street is one way) and
|| I'm up to traffic speed.
||
|| A clog up ahead gets removed and now the traffic is faster, say 20
|| mph. So I gear up and accelerate, say to 25 mph, the speed limit.
||
|| Note that I am going at legal max speed and the curb lane is lousy
|| with delivery vans and people pulling out of parking garages at the
|| end of their day.
||
|| My judgement and experience tells me that I need to be in this
|| lane and mode to be safe.
||
|| So a driver decides that because there's a momentary clear space
|| in front of me that I'm going too slowly.
||
|| They lay on the horn. Major horn blowing.
||
|| What they don't know is that I have this road timed, clocked and
|| dialed in as far as lights and traffic are concerned.
||
|| Blow as you may, I'll be in Scotland afore ye.
||
|| In actual fact, I knew that with a mild sprint I'd be on their
|| bumper at the Rite-Aid and they'd be facing a good long red
|| light.
||
|| So it was. I stopped, got off, and pulled my trusty Kryptonite
|| EVO 2000 out of the pannier pocket. I hung it on my bar and walked
|| up to the (natch) SUV.
||
|| At this point I was not interested in a violent confrontation, all
|| I wanted was a valuable dialogue. But I was spitting mad.
||
|| And I did not know what subhuman scum were piloting the offending
|| vehicle, hence the Kryptonite.
||
|| Imagine my surprise when I discovered two middle-aged church ladies
|| operating this engine of intimidation, the operator frantically
|| trying to close the windows and her passenger asking calmly, "What
|| are you trying to do with the windows?"
||
|| I was, nonplussed. As the windows went up and down.
||
|| It was bizarre, but not too bizzare for me to forego the opportunity
|| to deliver my road use lecture. Somewhat obstructed by involuntary
|| convulsions.
||
|| The capper was, as soon as the HCL had mastered her windows, she
|| stated, "Ah'm rat, ah works for the bahsicle program and you're
|| wrong."
||
|| Apparently the bicycle program involves riding your horn when behind
|| bicycles. OK, I thought, that has to be cool.
||
|| This definitely wasn't a battle I was going to win, so I made a
|| great show of reading off her license plate, pulling into the ATM
|| that was my original objective, and pretending to write down said
|| license number.
||
|| Of course I didn't have a pen.

I really think you might want to consider using a car instead of riding a
bicycle if you don't learn to control yourself. You might hurt someone.

Roger Zoul said:

Eric S. Sande wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

|| But I was spitting mad.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

|| It was bizarre, but not too bizzare for me to forego the opportunity
|| to deliver my road use lecture. Somewhat obstructed by involuntary
|| convulsions.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I really think you might want to consider using a car instead of riding a
bicycle if you don't learn to control yourself. You might hurt someone.

He apparently has the most basic qualifications for operating a motor
vehicle...getting angry in traffic.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

Luigi de Guzman wtote-

Quoted message said:

The whole mess reminds me of G.K. Chesterton's old saw that the trouble

with

Quoted message said:

Christianity was not that it was tried once and abandoned; but that it

had

Quoted message said:

never been attempted in the first place at all.

We have a pretty major Mormon facility in the neighbourhood and I was
delighted to see the elders had provided the young lads they use to spread
the good word with entry level mountain bikes, on the basis that wheels and
gears would get more conversions than shoe leather alone - but they seem to
have to leave them securely locked to street signs for hours rather than
chatting from the saddle as it were.

The one thing I hate worse than sin is seeing decent bikes not ridden -
perhaps we could get those fit looking young men out on the Sunday ride -
and if they have enough breath left over after the sprints are all done then
they can preach all they want - sort of the Church of the Everlasting
Lactate.

best, Andrew

Andrew Price said:

Luigi de Guzman wtote-

Quoted message said:

The whole mess reminds me of G.K. Chesterton's old saw that the trouble

with

Quoted message said:

Christianity was not that it was tried once and abandoned; but that it

had

Quoted message said:

never been attempted in the first place at all.

We have a pretty major Mormon facility in the neighbourhood and I was
delighted to see the elders had provided the young lads they use to spread
the good word with entry level mountain bikes, on the basis that wheels
and gears would get more conversions than shoe leather alone -

I believe it's in the Rule of Mother Theresa's Missionaries of Charity, that
the sisters should all learn to ride bicycles to enable them to go more
places.

Our local mormon proselytizers are the same way. Pity nobody taught them
about riding on the road, properly. They weave through the sidewalks and
driveways, counterflow.

If I ever encounter them when I'm on my bike, I intend to ask them, "Excuse
me, but have you accepted the Uniform Vehicle Code as your personal code
and savior?"

If I should be able to effect their conversion to proper vehicular cycling,
the possibility of bringing more souls into the light and out of the
sidewalk increases.

Suddenly, I had this mental image of a Dominican friar on a bicycle. I
should ask the next friar I meet whether it is possible to cycle in their
habit.

-Luigi

--
www.livejournal.com/users/ouij
Photos, Rants, Raves

AustinMN said:

Roger Zoul wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I really think you might want to consider using a car instead of riding

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bicycle if you don't learn to control yourself. You might hurt

someone.

Quoted message said:

He apparently has the most basic qualifications for operating a motor
vehicle...getting angry in traffic.

Austin

The OP did not brandish the Kryptonite, nor did he use it to vandalize the
SUV, nor did he assault or batter anyone with it. He merely kept it visible
so that the motorist he was talking to (who was displaying a fair bit of
inappropriate anger herself) wouldn't be as likely to get nasty with him. He
did take the risk that the motorist was carrying something more effective
than a rubber coated bicycle lock, but that was his choice.

The two paragons of Christian virtue in the Stupid Useless Vehicle weren't
hurt, and they will probably think twice before they harass other road users
in the future.
--
mark

"mark" wrote

Quoted message said:

AustinMN said:

Roger Zoul wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I really think you might want to consider using a car instead of

riding

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bicycle if you don't learn to control yourself. You might hurt

someone.

Quoted message said:

He apparently has the most basic qualifications for operating a motor
vehicle...getting angry in traffic.

Austin

The OP did not brandish the Kryptonite, nor did he use it to vandalize

the

Quoted message said:

SUV, nor did he assault or batter anyone with it. He merely kept it

visible

Quoted message said:

so that the motorist he was talking to (who was displaying a fair bit of
inappropriate anger herself) wouldn't be as likely to get nasty with him.

He

Quoted message said:

did take the risk that the motorist was carrying something more effective
than a rubber coated bicycle lock, but that was his choice.

The two paragons of Christian virtue in the Stupid Useless Vehicle

weren't

Quoted message said:

hurt, and they will probably think twice before they harass other road

users

Quoted message said:

in the future.

High risk, low reward.

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:41:43 -0400, "Eric S. Sande" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This definitely wasn't a battle I was going to win, so I made a
great show of reading off her license plate, pulling into the ATM
that was my original objective, and pretending to write down said
license number.

Of course I didn't have a pen.

Can't blame you for your reaction, but just remember, when you're out there
on the bike, you're pumped up and probably not thinking calmly. It's better
to devise a strategy so that your hyped up physical state doesn't get you
into trouble. Easier said than done. Glad you weren't hurt, etc.

-B

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:41:43 -0400, "Eric S. Sande" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

This definitely wasn't a battle I was going to win, so I made a
great show of reading off her license plate, pulling into the ATM
that was my original objective, and pretending to write down said
license number.

Of course I didn't have a pen.

Can't blame you for your reaction, but just remember, when you're out there
on the bike, you're pumped up and probably not thinking calmly. It's better
to devise a strategy so that your hyped up physical state doesn't get you
into trouble. Easier said than done. Glad you weren't hurt, etc.

-B

"mark" wrote: (clip) they will probably think twice before they harass
other road users in the future.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We wish. More likely, after they have had time to think about it, they will
"gerymander" the memories so that they will perceive themselves as
blameless, heroic victims, and the cyclist as the villain. In the
retelling, the story will have lines in it like, "He was blocking my way, so
I tapped politely on my horn, and he flew into a rage, and threatened me
with some kind of a heavy piece of metal. I was lucky to get my windows
closed in time."

By the time HER friends have repeated the story, it will include, perhaps,
"Something needs to be done about all those lawless bicycle riders. They
don't belong on OUR streets."

Leo Lichtman said:

"mark" wrote: (clip) they will probably think twice before they harass
other road users in the future.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
We wish. More likely, after they have had time to think about it, they will
"gerymander" the memories so that they will perceive themselves as
blameless, heroic victims, and the cyclist as the villain. In the
retelling, the story will have lines in it like, "He was blocking my way, so
I tapped politely on my horn, and he flew into a rage, and threatened me
with some kind of a heavy piece of metal. I was lucky to get my windows
closed in time."

By the time HER friends have repeated the story, it will include, perhaps,
"Something needs to be done about all those lawless bicycle riders. They
don't belong on OUR streets."

Exactly. Same kind of thing happens on my bike/MU trail. You be polite and
thank everyone for letting you pass, but there's still a few people who
think you don't belong, since that trail is -their- venue to use for their
dogs to [censored] everywhere and chase people, jump on peds, and run up from a
dunk in the river and shake on hapless hikers (OK, that part is funny).

They break the law constantly by letting dogs off the leash on 'leash days'
(Fri-Mon), but get very upset if you ask them "ma'am, why is your dog
charging and jumping on me? please control him" They reply "he's charging
and jumping on you b/c you're going too fast." Of course at the time, I'm
dead stopped or coasting at about 1mph trying to get by them. It's all
their little pea-brain can think of to say, since they'll never admit to
being a scoflaw and public nuisance.

Then they have the nerve to post a rant in the local paper about the crazy
bikers who ride by and don't stop when they see them with their precious
doggies. I mean c'mon, we're supposed to stop and pull the bike over when
encountering a dog? But that's their take on it.

Fortunately more and more bikers are using the trail and the doggie walkers
will just have to adjust and/or go elsewhere.

-B

Luigi de Guzman said:

Our local mormon proselytizers are the same way. Pity nobody taught them
about riding on the road, properly. They weave through the sidewalks and
driveways, counterflow.

DON'T mess with them.

They're the Mighty Mormon Power Rangers.

Luigi de Guzman said:

Our local mormon proselytizers are the same way. Pity nobody taught them
about riding on the road, properly. They weave through the sidewalks and
driveways, counterflow.

DON'T mess with them.

They're the Mighty Mormon Power Rangers.

mark wrote:
|| "AustinMN" wrote:
||| Roger Zoul wrote:
||
|||| I really think you might want to consider using a car instead of
|||| riding a bicycle if you don't learn to control yourself. You
|||| might hurt someone.
|||
||| He apparently has the most basic qualifications for operating a
||| motor vehicle...getting angry in traffic.
|||
||| Austin
||
|| The OP did not brandish the Kryptonite, nor did he use it to
|| vandalize the SUV, nor did he assault or batter anyone with it. He
|| merely kept it visible so that the motorist he was talking to (who
|| was displaying a fair bit of inappropriate anger herself) wouldn't
|| be as likely to get nasty with him. He did take the risk that the
|| motorist was carrying something more effective than a rubber coated
|| bicycle lock, but that was his choice.

If he approached me with a weapon, I would assume he intended to use it. It
is a threatening act that is likely to incite violence. There was no need
for that...he should have let them be. Hey did nothing more than blow a
horn and there is no law against being ignorant - but there are laws against
threatening people with violence.

||
|| The two paragons of Christian virtue in the Stupid Useless Vehicle
|| weren't hurt, and they will probably think twice before they harass
|| other road users in the future.

Them being Christian has little to do with it. They were just to ignorant
old biddies.

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 13:58:36 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

did nothing more than blow a
horn and there is no law against being ignorant - but there are laws against
threatening people with violence.

In many cases it seems like bikers, myself included, experience a passive
aggressive incident and then respond in an actively aggressive manner.

Of course it's understandable, b/c there's only a short step between the
horn blowing and being run off the road, at least in the biker's mind.

But your words are wise and on target. Don't give the bozos anything to
reflect off of. If it's possible to ignore them, it's best to do so. Easier
said than done, though. It's best to practice mentally blowing off such
things and then try to remember and resolve to do so in practice.

-B

Eric S. Sande wrote:

<snip tale of woe>

Eric,

I thought you were a vet street rider. Is
getting honked at really that big of a deal
to necessitate that whole production?
Don't you have more important things to
worry about?

Also, if you're in the left lane and can't keep
up with the flow, you have a legal obligation to
move right, even if you don't like the delivery
vans, etc. in the right lane.

If you're into legal obligations.

And what's with this passive-aggressive
pretending to write down license plate
numbers? Very disappointed to hear you
pulling that one. I don't want to hear about
any more cyclists pulling that [censored].
It's embarrassing.

Let your riding do the talking.

Robert