S
Slugger
Guest
In article <saIKc.117664$IQ4.50374@attbi_s02>, Mark Leuck
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Slugger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:180720042037201523%[email protected]...
> >
> > Macs don't even compete with windows. Apple innovates and M$ theives.
> > Plain and simple.
>
> One could say Apple does the same thing, in the case of the mac they got
> much of the technology from Xerox, even the Ipod was somewhat based on
> existing MP3 players, they do have a great design but also got exclusive use
> of new and smaller hard drives which other companies couldn't get when they
> created the first hard drive based players
Apple innovated this field..i never said they started it.
Apple never stole the Xerox stuff. They paid for it.
>
> > Mac's are expensive?
> > Compared to a Dell they are cheaper.
> > Go to Dell's website and configure an XPS(their top of the line
> > home/office PC), then go to Apple's site and configure a G5.
>
> Apples to oranges (pun intended), Apple now only deals with dual processor
> models whereas Dell does not at least for consumer systems, I could go
> elsewhere and get a dual AMD Opteron system with a better graphics card for
> less than what I just looked at with Apple
>
> > The mac wins in price and performance.
> > Bottom of the line G5 for 1999.00 is a dual 1.8ghz
>
> Wanna know WHY Apples only offers dual processor models? Because IBM can't
> produce anything as fast as what Intel and AMD currently put out (yet). The
> only way Apple can even come close speedwise is with the dualies, note they
> are also all water cooled because it is almost a requirement with the G5 but
> isn't with AMD (note Intel now is running into heat problems on the new
> Northgate processors)
Actually thats not true.
The single 1.8ghz is comparable to the single pentiums and AMD's.
My point was that you get 2 CPU's for the price of one of Dell's single
CPU.
Two CPU's don't make the mac twice as fast but it helps with apps that
have SMP specific code. Heavy rendering apps specifically, which is
where speed really counts. Also it shines in multitasking.
Only the 2.5 dually is liquid cooled. (thermally conductive fluid)
Many PC's have that feature. Cooling is always going to be an issue
with computing as processors are made faster/hotter. So no they are
not all liquid cooled..i wish they were though because they would all
run a bit faster. You make it sound like thats a bad feature! Its an
advantage.
>
> Apple has in the past made outlandish claims as far as performance that has
> never been backed up and refuted many times dating back to the original
> imac, while the G4 and 5 are good processors they aren't nearly as powerful
> as Intel or AMD. (remember last years "fastest desktop made?" campaign? It
> was bogus when actual independent tests were done
I agree whole heartedly that apple overstated the G5 but the CPU is
comparable and competitive to any Pentium/AMD on the market, single CPU
32 bit or 64 bit.
>
> Here's a few benchmarks from a quick Google search
>
>
> http://www.alienware.com/review_pages/review_template.aspx?FileName=review_mac
> world_1203.asp
>
> http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/desktops/0,39023846,39117451,00.htm
>
> http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp
>
> Look em up all you want, the result is the same, while it is a step up for
> Apple it still doesn't beat a high end PC
>
Sure from PCworld and PC manufacturers.
zdnet is also anti mac.
http://www.barefeats.com will give you some mac specific benchmarks
against the PC. Yes its a mac info site. No the mac doesn't win in all
tests. Yes they are configured fairly.
>
> > top of the line XPS is 3.2ghz for 1999.00 add 3.4ghz upgrade the the
> > Dell for another 760.00 because it will need a speed boost(not that it
> > will make much difference.). There was no option to add a second CPU to
> > match the Dual CPU's on the low end mac so i just upgraded the XPS to
> > 3.4ghz, i'm sure adding another similar CPU would cost another 700
> > bux.)
>
> Yes if you went Intel, if you went AMD it would be much cheaper and far more
> powerful. And Dell doesn't deal with dual processors for regular customers
> however we have quite a few dual and quad Dells at work
Bet they cost an arm and a leg too.
>
> > Now add the firewire ports to the XPS. Since they don't offer the FW800
> > ports we'll add 4 FW400's to match the mac's 2x400's and 2x800's
> > thats 50 bux each. In fact it doesn't look possible to add more than
> > one FW port, at least not on the site.
>
> Don't need to, the vast majority use USB
I guess you don't own a DV cam then?
>
> I have a firewire drive and a couple of ports, almost never used since to me
> USB is more convenient and much more supported. The new FW800 is twice as
> fast but its also fairly new and not that many devices take advantage of the
> speed.
>
> Apple shot themselves in the foot with firewire, one of the reasons USB
> became so popular even when it wasn't as good was because of the high
> royalty price Apple wanted for it, motherboard makers chose USB instead
On the contrary,
Every PC/DV owner that didn't get a FW card in their PC has to go and
buy one. Apple didn't shoot themselves in the foot.
They won a freaking oscar for the FW port. All DV cam companies
support FW as a standard. Forget the motherboard, its the peripheral
companies that drive port adoption. You will not find USB on any
HDDVcams as it won't be able to handle the bandwidth that HDDV will
require. Thanks to Apple, FW800 is available to those who want to edit
high def. digital video straight off the camera.
Apple wins over hollywood.
I'm not saying there is no use for USB but it loses in the
highbandwidth products.
Great for printers and keyboards, mice, joysticks.
>
> > Add another 30 bux for the media software to match Apple's iLife apps
> > that come free with the system.
>
> Why are you bringing the PC up to Mac standards? Instead you need to go the
> other way. For instance if you are a gamer the Mac is out of the picture
> completely, even with the same video card the Mac doesn't come close in
> sheer performance
>
> And since we are now talking software consider the fact the PC has far more
> titles available for it than the Mac
Plenty of games available to the mac. I don't have all damn day to play
games but i like UT 2004, Medal of Honor, Tony Hawk and Doom3 whenever
that surfaces. Games are not my life but i do play some. I often
consider buying a nice little shuttle PC for gaming and then i realize
thats a waste of money. I could just buy an Xbox or PS2 ow whatever.
Anyways there are tons of games for mac. Not as many granted, but more
than i have time for.
As for the video card...well how aboout i add an ATI Radeon 9800XT with
256mb of RAM? is that good enough?
>
> > Add Norton because your PC isn't safe with out it.
>
> Lol Norton sucks in my opinion, use McAffee, if you want a firewall don't
> use either and get a router
Norton, mcaffee, same **** different stack.
>
> > Add another 80 bucks for the XP pro edition. You know, for the added
> > security!!
>
> We've discussed that in previous threads but for now you are correct
>
> > Security is free with the mac.
>
> Nonsense, the fact is no hacker will waste his time on 3% of the market when
> he can do far more damage to 90% which is why exploits on the Mac haven't
> been found yet, no software is perfect and neither is OSX. Since it appears
> Apple is starting to move away from computers in general I doubt they ever
> go beyond the share of the market they currently have.
I never claimed that OSX isn't hackable.
I claim that Doze is, ships with all the ports open!!
What a ****around! You can't go online with a brand new computer with
out virus software and you may get hit right away before updating your
virus ware. **** all that ****. I don't have the time for it. I think
some of you PC users don't know any better. Its a hostile environment
on the web and windows is not ready for it out of the box. Period.
>
> > Ok in all fairness the XPS gives you a monitor with it. A value of
> > about 150 bux. And also in all fairness the PC comes with elcheapo
> > kodak camera. a value of 100 bux.
>
> Actually the camera is pretty nice and worth more than $100, a couple of
> guys at work got Dells and the cameras, and in all honesty $150 will get you
> a shitty monitor
>
i dunno about the camera. It looks budget to me and so does the monitor
but thats why i gave Dell the benefit of the doubt. Neither is worth
more than 250.00
> > The PC comes with more RAM so add 75 bux to the mac.
> > And another 50 bux to get the video card to be similar(in RAM) to the
> > PC's.
> > The mac's total without monitor is 2124.00
>
> I was pricing the 2.5ghz dual G5 which came out to almost $3,000
The 2.5ghz would stomp the PC.
Its just not a fair comparison.
neither is the dual1.8 but thats all they had.
A single 1.8 would compete and run along side the PC.
> > The PC with imaginary 4 FW ports and monitor and free crappy camera
> > comes to 3058.00
> > Lets be good to Dell and take off 500 bux for the monitor and crappy
> > camera.
> > Still the total equals 2558.00 for the XPS and the Mac for a mere
> > 2124.00
> >
> > Sure you could go to Walmart and buy a vanilla PC for cheap, but it
> > won't be half the computer that Apple or Dell is selling.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>
> Sorry but that was a funny one, the reason why I build my own PC's is
> because I could get a far better machine without going through proprietary
> Apple stuff and semi-proprietary Dell stuff (Dell has non-standard
> motherboards with non-standard power supplies and they only seem to work
> with Dell keyboards)
Thats nice that you have the knowledge to build your own PC and
support it when something goes wrong. You will save some good coin
there. Ed don't have a hope in hell however.
> But since most do not build their own machines please continue
>
> > Ok so never mind the price, the mac wins,whatever.
> > The Dual G5 will run circles around the XPS.
>
> Again comparing Apples to oranges
>
> > The G5 beats AMD chips in 4 out of 5 speed tests.
>
> According to who? I hope you aren't getting this from Apple, they tend to
> inflate figures quite a bit (see above)
>
Once again i point you to http://www.barefeats.com for the performance
minded mac user. Look for the PC comparisons. They are objective
because the PC chips beat the G4's no doubt.
But the G5 wins many tests.
The site is updated frequently, when ever he gets his hands on a system.
> > AMD is faster than
> > intel chips on single operations. intel excels over AMD on multitasking
> > operations.
>
> Actually the tests go back and forth between Intel and AMD regardless of
> multitasking, while Intel does have Hyperthreading the AMD chip is much more
> efficient, remember the AMD is running a full gigahertz below the compared
> Intel chip
>
> > The G5 is a true speed champ.
>
> Only in Apples mind, unfortunatly for them the rest of the world knows
> better which is why Apple has only 3% of the market down from a high of 5%
> 10 years ago
>
Apparently in VT's mind also.
I urge you to look at Virginia Tech's G5 mac cluster. 1100 G5 duallies
producing 13 Teraflops for dirt cheap. It's the 3rd fastest
super-computer in the world and the cheapest of the clusters
price/performance ratio according to the school. I'm sure they did
their research. I think its currently disassembled to upgrade to
Xserve 2.5ghz G5's. They may even get second place.
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Slugger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:180720042037201523%[email protected]...
> >
> > Macs don't even compete with windows. Apple innovates and M$ theives.
> > Plain and simple.
>
> One could say Apple does the same thing, in the case of the mac they got
> much of the technology from Xerox, even the Ipod was somewhat based on
> existing MP3 players, they do have a great design but also got exclusive use
> of new and smaller hard drives which other companies couldn't get when they
> created the first hard drive based players
Apple innovated this field..i never said they started it.
Apple never stole the Xerox stuff. They paid for it.
>
> > Mac's are expensive?
> > Compared to a Dell they are cheaper.
> > Go to Dell's website and configure an XPS(their top of the line
> > home/office PC), then go to Apple's site and configure a G5.
>
> Apples to oranges (pun intended), Apple now only deals with dual processor
> models whereas Dell does not at least for consumer systems, I could go
> elsewhere and get a dual AMD Opteron system with a better graphics card for
> less than what I just looked at with Apple
>
> > The mac wins in price and performance.
> > Bottom of the line G5 for 1999.00 is a dual 1.8ghz
>
> Wanna know WHY Apples only offers dual processor models? Because IBM can't
> produce anything as fast as what Intel and AMD currently put out (yet). The
> only way Apple can even come close speedwise is with the dualies, note they
> are also all water cooled because it is almost a requirement with the G5 but
> isn't with AMD (note Intel now is running into heat problems on the new
> Northgate processors)
Actually thats not true.
The single 1.8ghz is comparable to the single pentiums and AMD's.
My point was that you get 2 CPU's for the price of one of Dell's single
CPU.
Two CPU's don't make the mac twice as fast but it helps with apps that
have SMP specific code. Heavy rendering apps specifically, which is
where speed really counts. Also it shines in multitasking.
Only the 2.5 dually is liquid cooled. (thermally conductive fluid)
Many PC's have that feature. Cooling is always going to be an issue
with computing as processors are made faster/hotter. So no they are
not all liquid cooled..i wish they were though because they would all
run a bit faster. You make it sound like thats a bad feature! Its an
advantage.
>
> Apple has in the past made outlandish claims as far as performance that has
> never been backed up and refuted many times dating back to the original
> imac, while the G4 and 5 are good processors they aren't nearly as powerful
> as Intel or AMD. (remember last years "fastest desktop made?" campaign? It
> was bogus when actual independent tests were done
I agree whole heartedly that apple overstated the G5 but the CPU is
comparable and competitive to any Pentium/AMD on the market, single CPU
32 bit or 64 bit.
>
> Here's a few benchmarks from a quick Google search
>
>
> http://www.alienware.com/review_pages/review_template.aspx?FileName=review_mac
> world_1203.asp
>
> http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/desktops/0,39023846,39117451,00.htm
>
> http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112749,pg,8,00.asp
>
> Look em up all you want, the result is the same, while it is a step up for
> Apple it still doesn't beat a high end PC
>
Sure from PCworld and PC manufacturers.
zdnet is also anti mac.
http://www.barefeats.com will give you some mac specific benchmarks
against the PC. Yes its a mac info site. No the mac doesn't win in all
tests. Yes they are configured fairly.
>
> > top of the line XPS is 3.2ghz for 1999.00 add 3.4ghz upgrade the the
> > Dell for another 760.00 because it will need a speed boost(not that it
> > will make much difference.). There was no option to add a second CPU to
> > match the Dual CPU's on the low end mac so i just upgraded the XPS to
> > 3.4ghz, i'm sure adding another similar CPU would cost another 700
> > bux.)
>
> Yes if you went Intel, if you went AMD it would be much cheaper and far more
> powerful. And Dell doesn't deal with dual processors for regular customers
> however we have quite a few dual and quad Dells at work
Bet they cost an arm and a leg too.
>
> > Now add the firewire ports to the XPS. Since they don't offer the FW800
> > ports we'll add 4 FW400's to match the mac's 2x400's and 2x800's
> > thats 50 bux each. In fact it doesn't look possible to add more than
> > one FW port, at least not on the site.
>
> Don't need to, the vast majority use USB
I guess you don't own a DV cam then?
>
> I have a firewire drive and a couple of ports, almost never used since to me
> USB is more convenient and much more supported. The new FW800 is twice as
> fast but its also fairly new and not that many devices take advantage of the
> speed.
>
> Apple shot themselves in the foot with firewire, one of the reasons USB
> became so popular even when it wasn't as good was because of the high
> royalty price Apple wanted for it, motherboard makers chose USB instead
On the contrary,
Every PC/DV owner that didn't get a FW card in their PC has to go and
buy one. Apple didn't shoot themselves in the foot.
They won a freaking oscar for the FW port. All DV cam companies
support FW as a standard. Forget the motherboard, its the peripheral
companies that drive port adoption. You will not find USB on any
HDDVcams as it won't be able to handle the bandwidth that HDDV will
require. Thanks to Apple, FW800 is available to those who want to edit
high def. digital video straight off the camera.
Apple wins over hollywood.
I'm not saying there is no use for USB but it loses in the
highbandwidth products.
Great for printers and keyboards, mice, joysticks.
>
> > Add another 30 bux for the media software to match Apple's iLife apps
> > that come free with the system.
>
> Why are you bringing the PC up to Mac standards? Instead you need to go the
> other way. For instance if you are a gamer the Mac is out of the picture
> completely, even with the same video card the Mac doesn't come close in
> sheer performance
>
> And since we are now talking software consider the fact the PC has far more
> titles available for it than the Mac
Plenty of games available to the mac. I don't have all damn day to play
games but i like UT 2004, Medal of Honor, Tony Hawk and Doom3 whenever
that surfaces. Games are not my life but i do play some. I often
consider buying a nice little shuttle PC for gaming and then i realize
thats a waste of money. I could just buy an Xbox or PS2 ow whatever.
Anyways there are tons of games for mac. Not as many granted, but more
than i have time for.
As for the video card...well how aboout i add an ATI Radeon 9800XT with
256mb of RAM? is that good enough?
>
> > Add Norton because your PC isn't safe with out it.
>
> Lol Norton sucks in my opinion, use McAffee, if you want a firewall don't
> use either and get a router
Norton, mcaffee, same **** different stack.
>
> > Add another 80 bucks for the XP pro edition. You know, for the added
> > security!!
>
> We've discussed that in previous threads but for now you are correct
>
> > Security is free with the mac.
>
> Nonsense, the fact is no hacker will waste his time on 3% of the market when
> he can do far more damage to 90% which is why exploits on the Mac haven't
> been found yet, no software is perfect and neither is OSX. Since it appears
> Apple is starting to move away from computers in general I doubt they ever
> go beyond the share of the market they currently have.
I never claimed that OSX isn't hackable.
I claim that Doze is, ships with all the ports open!!
What a ****around! You can't go online with a brand new computer with
out virus software and you may get hit right away before updating your
virus ware. **** all that ****. I don't have the time for it. I think
some of you PC users don't know any better. Its a hostile environment
on the web and windows is not ready for it out of the box. Period.
>
> > Ok in all fairness the XPS gives you a monitor with it. A value of
> > about 150 bux. And also in all fairness the PC comes with elcheapo
> > kodak camera. a value of 100 bux.
>
> Actually the camera is pretty nice and worth more than $100, a couple of
> guys at work got Dells and the cameras, and in all honesty $150 will get you
> a shitty monitor
>
i dunno about the camera. It looks budget to me and so does the monitor
but thats why i gave Dell the benefit of the doubt. Neither is worth
more than 250.00
> > The PC comes with more RAM so add 75 bux to the mac.
> > And another 50 bux to get the video card to be similar(in RAM) to the
> > PC's.
> > The mac's total without monitor is 2124.00
>
> I was pricing the 2.5ghz dual G5 which came out to almost $3,000
The 2.5ghz would stomp the PC.
Its just not a fair comparison.
neither is the dual1.8 but thats all they had.
A single 1.8 would compete and run along side the PC.
> > The PC with imaginary 4 FW ports and monitor and free crappy camera
> > comes to 3058.00
> > Lets be good to Dell and take off 500 bux for the monitor and crappy
> > camera.
> > Still the total equals 2558.00 for the XPS and the Mac for a mere
> > 2124.00
> >
> > Sure you could go to Walmart and buy a vanilla PC for cheap, but it
> > won't be half the computer that Apple or Dell is selling.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
>
> Sorry but that was a funny one, the reason why I build my own PC's is
> because I could get a far better machine without going through proprietary
> Apple stuff and semi-proprietary Dell stuff (Dell has non-standard
> motherboards with non-standard power supplies and they only seem to work
> with Dell keyboards)
Thats nice that you have the knowledge to build your own PC and
support it when something goes wrong. You will save some good coin
there. Ed don't have a hope in hell however.
> But since most do not build their own machines please continue
>
> > Ok so never mind the price, the mac wins,whatever.
> > The Dual G5 will run circles around the XPS.
>
> Again comparing Apples to oranges
>
> > The G5 beats AMD chips in 4 out of 5 speed tests.
>
> According to who? I hope you aren't getting this from Apple, they tend to
> inflate figures quite a bit (see above)
>
Once again i point you to http://www.barefeats.com for the performance
minded mac user. Look for the PC comparisons. They are objective
because the PC chips beat the G4's no doubt.
But the G5 wins many tests.
The site is updated frequently, when ever he gets his hands on a system.
> > AMD is faster than
> > intel chips on single operations. intel excels over AMD on multitasking
> > operations.
>
> Actually the tests go back and forth between Intel and AMD regardless of
> multitasking, while Intel does have Hyperthreading the AMD chip is much more
> efficient, remember the AMD is running a full gigahertz below the compared
> Intel chip
>
> > The G5 is a true speed champ.
>
> Only in Apples mind, unfortunatly for them the rest of the world knows
> better which is why Apple has only 3% of the market down from a high of 5%
> 10 years ago
>
Apparently in VT's mind also.
I urge you to look at Virginia Tech's G5 mac cluster. 1100 G5 duallies
producing 13 Teraflops for dirt cheap. It's the 3rd fastest
super-computer in the world and the cheapest of the clusters
price/performance ratio according to the school. I'm sure they did
their research. I think its currently disassembled to upgrade to
Xserve 2.5ghz G5's. They may even get second place.
