Tour Power Data

[kopride]

KO,

Not really talking about personal issues or sickness but more the line of CNS issues related to the activity itself.
-js

But how do you distinguish the CNS issues from other stuff, as opposed to simple overtraining cycling plus resistance work? And, yes, the kettlebell workouts seem to take a big toll. As does squats and deadlifts. They just generally beat the heck out of you. And then when you jump on the bike, it seems to just redouble the toll.

 

[jsirabella]

I probably would not explain it well but I am going mostly by this article:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/the_thib_system_8212_fatigue_and_best_exercises

There has been others on the subject but this goes into detail about the difference of CNS depending on the exercise which should be able to be applied to the type of race you do.

-js

But how do you distinguish the CNS issues from other stuff, as opposed to simple overtraining cycling plus resistance work? And, yes, the kettlebell workouts seem to take a big toll. As does squats and deadlifts. They just generally beat the heck out of you. And then when you jump on the bike, it seems to just redouble the toll.

 

[velomanct]

Velo,

Sorry i didn't respond sooner, I was out riding today instead of posting. I confess that didn't look at your data, only the post below that stated the average and NP. Now that I have looked at the data, you're sprints are off the board, which explains why your NP is off the board. Initially, many of your claims appeared on the very edge of possibility, if not downright improbable. My skepticism does not come from a closed mind. In my line of work (attorney), most of my day is spent listening to people lie, and trying to figure out which part of the story, if any is true. Most of the time, if people's story consistently verges too far away from reasonable expectations, then it is reasonable to conclude that there might be an element of outright fiction or just exageration. Here was your original story:


It certainly had an air of mendacity about it, particularly coming from a guy who never posted a single race result, despite being a claimed Cat 3 (then 2). and who allegedly road a bike fast enough to get a ticket on the Interstate. But, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even it true, it did have that element of the local softball stud that thinks he can hit off a major league pitcher. ("those pros aren't even including the zero's for chrissake")

As for "giving in" and conceding to sub pro performance. At 42, you face different choices than you had at 24. There are kids, careers, etc, and being a "lackluster parent" or "lackluster professional" isn't really a competing option. So you grab whatever available time and try and make the best of it and progress within those limits. For many of us, "lackluster weekend warrior" is a hard earned badge of honor, and requires us to train our butts off to get to that level. Many of our contemporaries are satisfied with being "fantasy football participants" so the bar is set rather low.

In any event, I am satisfied that what initially appeared to be nonsense was actually a combination of youthful bravado coupled with a misunderstanding of the software, and not another internet tall tale teller. This is about as good an apology as you're going to get from a grouchy skeptical attorney weekend warrior who has to chase youngsters with more time to train. Truce?

Thanks.

My main error was the 450w estimate. I can't find a file to back that up. Although it seems if I can get a NP of 350 during a zone 1 ride with sprints, then maybe it is possible.

As an experiment, on my ride saturday I did a 10 minute section of nothing but accelerations and coasting. NP wasn't all that high, so obviously the 0s are included still.

 

[velomanct]

Sorry (to velomanct)...when I wrote that I didn't realize that it could be read as an insult. I was really just trying to emphasize velomanct's own evaluation of/perspective on his relative aerobic ability, i.e., he's clearly a bit better-than-average, but not on his way to becoming a professional.

This is correct, I'm a "good" rider, but would get my butt handed to me in any endurance event with pros.


However, Andy, my real goal is to make you rewrite that 5 sec column
.......



(There was mention of 'clean' racers in this thread before. I just want to say that I'm as organic as they come, I don't even use protein powder or Endurox anymore, LOL)

 

[Alex Simmons]

I am impressed with Alex. If I read his post correctly last night, he is doing a crit soon. That takes some spirit.

I still have not done my first race this year so I have come to the conclusion what is my excuse and will start.

-js

I figure if can ride a bike, why the hell wouldn't I race? It's what I love doing.

It won't be that impressive, it's the local E grade. I would typically line up in B when not so fit or A when fit.

 

[jsirabella]

Alex,

You say it very "matter of fact". All I can say is that I am impressed with your tenacity and will power.

Good luck...

-js

I figure if can ride a bike, why the hell wouldn't I race? It's what I love doing.

It won't be that impressive, it's the local E grade. I would typically line up in B when not so fit or A when fit.

 

[kopride]

There has been others on the subject but this goes into detail about the difference of CNS depending on the exercise which should be able to be applied to the type of race you do.

-js

There is not enough info to help us guys who are trying to mix an endurance sport like cycling with resistance training. Sure, don't deadlift to failure. But what about doing deadlifts on Monday below failure and then a 2 x 20 interval set on Tuesday, kettlebells Wed, 2 x 20s Th, Fri rest and then 2 days of weekend riding and some bodyweight exercises. What does that do to you? There is no question that you can stimulate a level of fatigue, (CNS and muscular) by combining these activities and working them hard, that causes almost total meltdown in both activities even if trying to stay in then sweet spot for cardio, and below failure for resistance training. IOW, you stop seeing gains in either area. This is where I have been hovering since mid June when I posted my best FTP numbers. I find myself struggling to complete workouts I easily did before in both areas. My "recovery time" is spent playing "disney dad" on weekends/vacations and/or a heavy work schedule during the week.

The answer seems to be drop one and focus on the other, but I just can't.

 

[kopride]

I figure if can ride a bike, why the hell wouldn't I race? It's what I love doing.

It won't be that impressive, it's the local E grade. I would typically line up in B when not so fit or A when fit.

That's the key. There are people who do things because they are good at them, so when they can no longer compete on the elite level, they don't bother. Then there are the folks that just plain love something. The latter are more rare and special. Every once and a while, you see that rare athlete who just seems to love the game. It can happen on any level, from pee wee to pro, but it is darn beautiful to watch. Those E boys won't know what hit them. Good luck and I am sorry I won't see it.

 

[jsirabella]

The answer seems to be drop one and focus on the other, but I just can't.

I understand and agree with you 100% but my question was a bit simpler and directed simply at TSS and TSB. Meaning was there any consideration for CNS fatigue in its calculation for a certain type of ride be it an L3 vs. L4. Or does it look just at muscular fatigue and recovery. I do not want to bring in personal issues or cross training..simply calculating TSS and TSB and I would imagine CTL for a cyclist who just does cycling and has proper time to recover.

If CNS fatigue is not correct to talk about when dealing with cycling training, fine.
-js

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...If CNS fatigue is not correct to talk about when dealing with cycling training, fine. ...-js

There's at least one coach who's talking about CNS fatigue quite a bit regarding cycling training but personally it seems awfully qualitative and not very well supported by sports science.

But to answer your question, no CNS fatigue is not directly accounted for (as no one has found a way to identify much less quantify such fatigue) nor are life stresses, poor nutrition, lack of sleep, work stress, illness.... TSS, CTL, ATL, and TSB just account for training stress and the time constants associated with them implictly account for your own ability to recover from training stress. Nothing else is accounted for in Bannister's model or Andy's PMC tool.

So use the PMC to track what you're doing in training but also pay attention to other life stresses, illnesses, nutritional issues, work and family stresses, etc. to plan your training and recovery. CTL, TSB alone won't tell you the whole story.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[frost]

So use the PMC to track what you're doing in training but also pay attention to other life stresses, illnesses, nutritional issues, work and family stresses, etc. to plan your training and recovery. CTL, TSB alone won't tell you the whole story.

Good luck,
-Dave

Hello Dave, you mention that CTL and TSB alone won't tell the story but still keep intensity out of it (I think Velomanct was actually meaning IF when talking about AP/NP earlier). Imagine identical twins, with identical training background, CTL and TSB participating race in five days. Twin A decides to ride couple of hours L2 every day, resulting ~100TSS. Twin B hits 5x5min L5 every day, with 1.2 IF for intervals resulting ~100TSS with warm up and cool down. Both do the same workouts every day for remaining 4 days.
Assuming that the Twin B is able to complete his workouts in the first place, whom would you put your money in the race?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

To be honest, neither of those sound like good peaking strategies for an important race. Posing questions as hypothetical extremes doesn't really help. It's a pretty good rhetorical trick but a game I'm not gonna play.

Intensity definitely plays into the equation on a lot of levels including identifying a particular rider's strengths and weaknesses. Knowing a bit about how they recover from certain kinds of efforts, looking at their training racing history and knowing a bit about the event to determine if you need to emphasize freshness or fitness on race day. There is no "one size fits all" answer and the reason why good coaches are worth what they charge.

My only comment on this thread is in response to the idea that an effective intensity level as predicted by the NP algorithm should have left the rider exhausted. In isolation neither AP nor NP will tell you how exhausted you'll be the next day. There are other training metrics that describe overall load and the balance of fitness vs. freshness.

-Dave

 

[simplyred]

Back to talking about pros - pros are awesome.

Even IF some of the forum posters can push 6W/kg for a hour - that's just the engine to the machine. Pros are also fearless and experienced.

Descending at the speed of light, taking turns our mothers would scorn at, playing the game like Bobby Fischer, repeatedly lighting matches like a fireworks display, and reading the peleton like a professor reads through papers.

No amount of ergo training will ever develop these skills.

 

[acoggan]

Hello Dave, you mention that CTL and TSB alone won't tell the story but still keep intensity out of it (I think Velomanct was actually meaning IF when talking about AP/NP earlier). Imagine identical twins, with identical training background, CTL and TSB participating race in five days. Twin A decides to ride couple of hours L2 every day, resulting ~100TSS. Twin B hits 5x5min L5 every day, with 1.2 IF for intervals resulting ~100TSS with warm up and cool down. Both do the same workouts every day for remaining 4 days.
Assuming that the Twin B is able to complete his workouts in the first place, whom would you put your money in the race?

See caveat #8 here:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanagerscience.asp

In particular:

"While the Performance Manager is an extremely valuable tool for analyzing training on a macro scale, it is important to also consider things on a micro scale as well, i.e., the nature and demands of the individual training sessions that produce the daily TSS values. That is, the “composition” of training is just as important as the overall “dose”, and the usefulness and predictive ability of the Performance Manager obviously depends on the individual workouts being appropriately chosen and executed in light of the individual’s competition goals."

 

[kopride]

Back to talking about pros - pros are awesome.

Even IF some of the forum posters can push 6W/kg for a hour - that's just the engine to the machine. Pros are also fearless and experienced.

Descending at the speed of light, taking turns our mothers would scorn at, playing the game like Bobby Fischer, repeatedly lighting matches like a fireworks display, and reading the peleton like a professor reads through papers.

No amount of ergo training will ever develop these skills.

True. I can go out and buy Ricky Charmichael's dirt bike or Nicky Hayden's motorcycle, but I am not going to outride them. Still the pros ability to churn these kinds of numbers day after day is amazing.

 

[frost]

See caveat #8 here:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanagerscience.asp

In particular:

"While the Performance Manager is an extremely valuable tool for analyzing training on a macro scale, it is important to also consider things on a micro scale as well, i.e., the nature and demands of the individual training sessions that produce the daily TSS values. That is, the “composition” of training is just as important as the overall “dose”, and the usefulness and predictive ability of the Performance Manager obviously depends on the individual workouts being appropriately chosen and executed in light of the individual’s competition goals."

That is of course the "correct" answer and not seeing that is not seeing the forest from the trees.

What was discussed above however was if rider should feel fatigued after a certain workout or not and TSS/TSB is the only (besides the external stressors of life) measure for that or if NP/AP (or IF to be more precise) also counts (or should I maybe say, sometimes counts more because IF already a part of TSS).
Quote from Velomanct: "Had I done a TT at 324 for 80 minutes, I would be extremely sore and 'blown' upon completion, and that is assuming I could even average such an output, which I'm almost certain that I could not". That agrees with my N=1 personal experience and I was trying to illustrate the point by exaggarated example of twins preparing to a race.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...What was discussed above however was if rider should feel fatigued after a certain workout or not and TSS/TSB is the only (besides the external stressors of life) measure for that or if NP/AP (or IF to be more precise) also counts (or should I maybe say, sometimes counts more because IF already a part of TSS). ....

Wow, how did you get from what was posted to what you just posted?

The discussion above was that Velomanct dismissed the NP algorithm because he wasn't sufficiently fatigued the following day after recording a particular NP. All I added was that neither AP nor NP should be viewed in isolation when it comes to predicting fatigue. Now you've turned that discussion on its head to suggest that I disregard IF and compare two hypothetical peaking strategies to prove your point. My entire point was forest and trees. I never said nor implied that IF, AP or NP are meaningless and that TSS tells all - just that AP and NP should not be viewed in isolation.

Same thing when John wondered whether the PMC takes into account other stresses. I suggested that he not get hung up on a single metric, always view the big picture.

Yes I didn't explicitely mention IF nor did either of us explicitely mention enviromental differences (riding in extreme heat, cold, humidity, etc.) or a host of other things that could influence fatigue and recovery. The point is that lack of fatigue doesn't invalidate the NP algorithm and the PMC doesn't account for every stress. Please don't suggest that I'm disregarding specific workout intensity or the training blend that contributes to the overall load.

-Dave

 

[frost]

Wow, how did you get from what was posted to what you just posted?

The discussion above was that Velomanct dismissed the NP algorithm because he wasn't sufficiently fatigued the following day after recording a particular NP. All I added was that neither AP nor NP should be viewed in isolation when it comes to predicting fatigue. Now you've turned that discussion on its head to suggest that I disregard IF and compare two hypothetical peaking strategies to prove your point. My entire point was forest and trees. I never said nor implied that IF, AP or NP are meaningless and that TSS tells all - just that AP and NP should not be viewed in isolation.

Same thing when John wondered whether the PMC takes into account other stresses. I suggested that he not get hung up on a single metric, always view the big picture.

Yes I didn't explicitely mention IF nor did either of us explicitely mention enviromental differences (riding in extreme heat, cold, humidity, etc.) or a host of other things that could influence fatigue and recovery. The point is that lack of fatigue doesn't invalidate the NP algorithm and the PMC doesn't account for every stress. Please don't suggest that I'm disregarding specific workout intensity or the training blend that contributes to the overall load.

-Dave

Sorry, that was a bad example because I mentioned the race which lead to think about peaking. What I meant to say was just I think that Twin B in the example is more fatigued after four days of L5 even both of the riders have same CTL and TSB. That was to exaggarate the point that at least I can be fatigued and have lowered performance after one high IF workout even the TSS actually is relatively small and I understand the Velomancts point when he's saying that he doesn't feel as fatigued as "he should".

I agree with looking at the big picture and don't get me wrong I think PMC is absolutely wonderful tool.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...I agree with looking at the big picture and don't get me wrong I think PMC is absolutely wonderful tool.

Sounds like we're in violent agreement

 

[kopride]

Sounds like we're in violent agreement

Your twin hypo is too hypothetical now that we have real pro tour data. What will be more interesting is when more of the tour pros share their data, training regieme and race. From that data, it might be possible to have a sufficient sample size to start to see how different training strategies prepare riders for particular events. The more transparent this data becomes, the more helpful it will be when it filters down.

On second thought, if twin A and B look like any of these girls, I want to be involved in your hypo.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/224124/