Tour Power Data

[acoggan]

I just got back from my sprint ride tonight. 80 minutes, average REAL watts of 138, with about 6 or 7 sprints, everything else zone 1.

NP = 324 for 80 minutes. What a load of sheet.

1. The algorithm used to calculate normalized power has never changed - the only difference between earlier and more recent versions of CyclingPeaks/WKO+ is the minimal duration for which such values are provided.

2. What objective evidence can you provide that your ride last night wasn't physiologically equivalent (in terms of the overall strain) to a steady-state effort of 324 W?

 

[velomanct]

1. The algorithm used to calculate normalized power has never changed - the only difference between earlier and more recent versions of CyclingPeaks/WKO+ is the minimal duration for which such values are provided.

2. What objective evidence can you provide that your ride last night wasn't physiologically equivalent (in terms of the overall strain) to a steady-state effort of 324 W?

Thank you for clearly stating your question. Makes for much better communication.

I finished last night's ride with no muscle soreness or anything more than slight fatigue. Today I feel as if I did not train "hard" yesterday. Had I done a TT at 324 for 80 minutes, I would be extremely sore and 'blown' upon completion, and that is assuming I could even average such an output, which I'm almost certain that I could not, since I have not been doing endurance training.

I don't know about pure objective evidence, that is hard to find since I am not doing a race today. My legs have no muscle soreness right now, and they surely would if I had done an all out TT yesterday.

 

[acoggan]

Thank you for clearly stating your question. Makes for much better communication.

I finished last night's ride with no muscle soreness or anything more than slight fatigue. Today I feel as if I did not train "hard" yesterday. Had I done a TT at 324 for 80 minutes, I would be extremely sore and 'blown' upon completion, and that is assuming I could even average such an output, which I'm almost certain that I could not, since I have not been doing endurance training.

I don't know about pure objective evidence, that is hard to find since I am not doing a race today. My legs have no muscle soreness right now, and they surely would if I had done an all out TT yesterday.

So here's the problem: you claim that the normalized power algorithm significantly overestimates the equivalent (in terms of physiological strain, e.g., glycogen utilization) steady-state power. but lack any objective evidence that this is indeed the case.

As for your subjective evaluation (which seems to be primarily based on how you feel today, vs. during yesterday's workout), I'd say that normalized power is the wrong metric to be focussing upon - TSS would be a better predictor, and your sensations seem to be well-aligned with those data (since the ride was relatively short, TSS wasn't particularily high).

 

[jsirabella]

I guess if you have a 300 ftp, you can come in 13th in Hungarian nationals and than race with a pro team in europe. Imagine what you can do with like a 350...

ok...tyson pack your bags!!

-js

Sorry, I was referring to the Hungarian rider's recent CT ride, not the tour data. Not really the same ballpark.

 

[velomanct]

Yes and that is why I believe NP is not a good training metric for my type of riding. It may work well for others though. This was all I was trying to say, but some people here love to make me a target because of my "wild and crazy" numbers.

For people like kopride, you need to open your mind a bit. You'll never make significant progress if you are always saying how impossible things are. It starts with the perception that you can produce simular numbers as the pros. Think about it. Who's more likely to actually do big numbers - the one who sees pros as gods, who can do the impossible, or the one who says "you know what, if I work my butt off and train like hell, I bet I can do comparable performances"? So what if you never actually do, you'll still be a lot faster than you would if you 'gave in' and conceeded that you always just be a lackluster weekend warrior.

I will end this discussion with a quote I like:

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

 

[acoggan]

that is why I believe NP is not a good training metric

Why is that again? So far, you've failed to provide any objective evidence to support this conclusion.

 

[velomanct]

Why is that again? So far, you've failed to provide any objective evidence to support this conclusion.

Because I should be sore and fatigued today. I'm not.

What kind of objective evidence are you looking for?


All of this is pointless though, because none of my current training has any pertinence to endurance performance (TT, threshold, etc).

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Because I should be sore and fatigued today. I'm not....

You really don't get it do you? Power whether Normalized or Average doesn't predict fatigue by itself. You've got to consider how long you held the effort relative to your accumulated training base. TSS and TSB do that but neither NP nor AP do that in isolation.

You rode for a bit over an hour, burned less than 700 Calories and earned a TSS somewhere around 100 based on your previously posted FTP estimate. With a decent training base a ride of 100 TSS should leave you pretty fresh the next day regardless of the NP.

Killer 5 second and peak power BTW. You've got one hell of a jump! That's one reason your NP seems so high, a few 1600+ watt sprints can really drive up the NP but that doesn't mean they don't also drive up your metabolic stress even if the average power isn't all that high.

-Dave

 

[jsirabella]

For people like kopride, you need to open your mind a bit. You'll never make significant progress if you are always saying how impossible things are. It starts with the perception that you can produce simular numbers as the pros. Think about it. Who's more likely to actually do big numbers - the one who sees pros as gods, who can do the impossible, or the one who says "you know what, if I work my butt off and train like hell, I bet I can do comparable performances"? So what if you never actually do, you'll still be a lot faster than you would if you 'gave in' and conceeded that you always just be a lackluster weekend warrior.

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.

FWIW, veloman I do not want to speak for KO but when I read his posts here I get the idea that it is not that he does not believe that hard work will not bring about great results or even results beyond those of the pros in any endeavour.

I think it is just that it seems to come a little too often and a little too easy sometimes...maybe it is because my personal experience has been one where I do not seem to see those same gains so I am a bit jealous.

Hey the other day I saw a video of a college girl do a 400lb deadlift....and a guy at my body weight of 180lbs do a 600lb deadlift.

But in anycase good luck in your goals and hope you reach them.

-js

 

[kopride]

For people like kopride, you need to open your mind a bit. You'll never make significant progress if you are always saying how impossible things are. It starts with the perception that you can produce simular numbers as the pros. Think about it. Who's more likely to actually do big numbers - the one who sees pros as gods, who can do the impossible, or the one who says "you know what, if I work my butt off and train like hell, I bet I can do comparable performances"? So what if you never actually do, you'll still be a lot faster than you would if you 'gave in' and conceeded that you always just be a lackluster weekend warrior.

Velo,

Sorry i didn't respond sooner, I was out riding today instead of posting. I confess that didn't look at your data, only the post below that stated the average and NP. Now that I have looked at the data, you're sprints are off the board, which explains why your NP is off the board. Initially, many of your claims appeared on the very edge of possibility, if not downright improbable. My skepticism does not come from a closed mind. In my line of work (attorney), most of my day is spent listening to people lie, and trying to figure out which part of the story, if any is true. Most of the time, if people's story consistently verges too far away from reasonable expectations, then it is reasonable to conclude that there might be an element of outright fiction or just exageration. Here was your original story:

Back when I was training for endurance I did one tempo ride at 322watts average (including the 0s during turns and such) for up to 3 hours (at 80kg). Mind you, I was nothing more than a competitive cat 3 here in New England. My best 20 minute effort was a rolling ~8 miles at 350w real average, none of that normalized power BS where you guys don't include the zeros. If watts is 0, then you are recovering, so how can you not include the 0s? Seems like "cheating" to get your 'average' power higher. HA.

I've have NP during crits at around 450watts for an hour. Does that mean I can do an actual 450w for an hour? No. Not at all. Crits are either coasting or hammering, NP is going to be wicked high

It certainly had an air of mendacity about it, particularly coming from a guy who never posted a single race result, despite being a claimed Cat 3 (then 2). and who allegedly road a bike fast enough to get a ticket on the Interstate. But, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even it true, it did have that element of the local softball stud that thinks he can hit off a major league pitcher. ("those pros aren't even including the zero's for chrissake")

As for "giving in" and conceding to sub pro performance. At 42, you face different choices than you had at 24. There are kids, careers, etc, and being a "lackluster parent" or "lackluster professional" isn't really a competing option. So you grab whatever available time and try and make the best of it and progress within those limits. For many of us, "lackluster weekend warrior" is a hard earned badge of honor, and requires us to train our butts off to get to that level. Many of our contemporaries are satisfied with being "fantasy football participants" so the bar is set rather low.

In any event, I am satisfied that what initially appeared to be nonsense was actually a combination of youthful bravado coupled with a misunderstanding of the software, and not another internet tall tale teller. This is about as good an apology as you're going to get from a grouchy skeptical attorney weekend warrior who has to chase youngsters with more time to train. Truce?

 

[acoggan]

Now that I have looked at the data, you're sprints are off the board, which explains why your NP is off the board.

Notably, however, velomanct still didn't "bust the algortihm" during this workout, or even in a race in which he tried very hard (hard enough to win, anyway...and if winning were easy for him at that level, that wouldn't be the only race he's won).

 

[kopride]

if winning were easy for him at that level, that wouldn't be the only race he's won).

Now, Andy, it's sunday and I am filled with goodwill and cheer towards my fellow men, including velomanct -- despite the fact that I am training indoors while my 2 year old naps instead of enjoying a beautiful day outdoors in SE PA. Please don't get my skepticism going again. Tyson and Alex continue to renew my faith that people are accomplishing amazing things on this board. Maybe velomanct is another. I will honor the truce.

Anyway, Thanks Andy for all the good info you regularly provide to us "lackluster weekend warriors."

 

[Felt_Rider]

Now, Andy, it's sunday and I am filled with goodwill and cheer towards my fellow men, including velomanct -- despite the fact that I am training indoors while my 2 year old naps instead of enjoying a beautiful day outdoors in SE PA. Please don't get my skepticism going again. Tyson and Alex continue to renew my faith that people are accomplishing amazing things on this board. Maybe velomanct is another. I will honor the truce.

Anyway, Thanks Andy for all the good info you regularly provide to us "lackluster weekend warriors."

It happens about this time every year when the TDF is in full play that my group "weekend warriors" brush off the lackluster as if we (40+ year olds) revert back to the old days of childhood playing out the daydreams of being a star athlete.

It was a fun day yesterday out with a group of 5 guys. Every little hill was a race to the top for our own KOM title(s). During the 63 mile ride we had a few moments of discplined pacelines going, but for the most part we threw the training book out the window and just had fun racing each other. I think I won at least 5 imaginary KOM jerseys.

Anyway a beautiful, but hot day yesterday just having fun out on the roadway.

But in a few minutes I may be on the trainer as well as we have storms rolling in today.

 

[kopride]

It happens about this time every year when the TDF is in full play that my group "weekend warriors" brush off the lackluster as if we (40+ year olds) revert back to the old days of childhood playing out the daydreams of being a star athlete.

It was a fun day yesterday out with a group of 5 guys. Every little hill was a race to the top for our own KOM title(s). During the 63 mile ride we had a few moments of discplined pacelines going, but for the most part we threw the training book out the window and just had fun racing each other. I think I won at least 5 imaginary KOM jerseys.

Anyway a beautiful, but hot day yesterday just having fun out on the roadway.

But in a few minutes I may be on the trainer as well as we have storms rolling in today.

Sounds like fun. Hopefully, that lackluster didn't hold you boys back too much. My own "lackluster" group of 40somethings just sent out the save the date for the Annual October Moab trip. So I will have to get on my Mountain bike a bit this summer

 

[postal_bag]

I guess if you have a 300 ftp, you can come in 13th in Hungarian nationals and than race with a pro team in europe. Imagine what you can do with like a 350...

ok...tyson pack your bags!!

-js

How's this: Almost anyone with an FTP of 300 w or greater could ride for 3 hrs averaging 260 w. Why bother posting this in a "tour data" thread. I'm not saying he's not a good rider.

 

[jsirabella]

I am impressed with Alex. If I read his post correctly last night, he is doing a crit soon. That takes some spirit.

I still have not done my first race this year so I have come to the conclusion what is my excuse and will start.

-js

Now, Andy, it's sunday and I am filled with goodwill and cheer towards my fellow men, including velomanct -- despite the fact that I am training indoors while my 2 year old naps instead of enjoying a beautiful day outdoors in SE PA. Please don't get my skepticism going again. Tyson and Alex continue to renew my faith that people are accomplishing amazing things on this board. Maybe velomanct is another. I will honor the truce.

Anyway, Thanks Andy for all the good info you regularly provide to us "lackluster weekend warriors."

 

[acoggan]

Now, Andy, it's sunday and I am filled with goodwill and cheer towards my fellow men

Sorry (to velomanct)...when I wrote that I didn't realize that it could be read as an insult. I was really just trying to emphasize velomanct's own evaluation of/perspective on his relative aerobic ability, i.e., he's clearly a bit better-than-average, but not on his way to becoming a professional.

 

[jsirabella]

Let me ask a question and excuse my ignorance but when I am looking at TSS does it take into account CNS fatigue. Lately on the other non-cycling related board I have been reading up a bit upon it, is it possible and was this considered in calculating TSS.

Hope the question makes sense because I noticed for myself when I held my TSS to over 100 for a couple months it was not the physical that started to affect me as much as I sensed a general feeling or fatigue which did not feel muscular.

-js

Sorry (to velomanct)...when I wrote that I didn't realize that it could be read as an insult. I was really just trying to emphasize velomanct's own evaluation of/perspective on his relative aerobic ability, i.e., he's clearly a bit better-than-average, but not on his way to becoming a professional.

 

[kopride]

Hope the question makes sense because I noticed for myself when I held my TSS to over 100 for a couple months it was not the physical that started to affect me as much as I sensed a general feeling or fatigue which did not feel muscular.

-js

That's a big issue with my issue with training as well. In addition to the general issues surrounding the recovery cycle, more problematic is the way non cycling stress affects training, i.e. work, sleep deprivation, diet, travel, cross training, etc. I have been really struggling to hit my power numbers from mid june. There is that fine line between improvement and total meltdown. Before the power meter, a sore throat and inevitable cold and malaise was the herald to the meltdown. Now it is the power numbers sliding backwards. We need a new metric to include spending a week with four kids home from school, or short commuter flights, fly in, fly out the same day. Sleep is a huge issue.

 

[jsirabella]

KO,

Not really talking about personal issues or sickness but more the line of CNS issues related to the activity itself. I have been reading alot of articles recently on how CNS tales twice as long as muscular recovery and certain types of weight lifting such as olympic lifting can generate a great deal of CNS stress while stuff like calf raises is almost none. I would think that this can equate to a tempo when compared to L4. I am sure it can be calculated this way.

-js

That's a big issue with my issue with training as well. In addition to the general issues surrounding the recovery cycle, more problematic is the way non cycling stress affects training, i.e. work, sleep deprivation, diet, travel, cross training, etc. I have been really struggling to hit my power numbers from mid june. There is that fine line between improvement and total meltdown. Before the power meter, a sore throat and inevitable cold and malaise was the herald to the meltdown. Now it is the power numbers sliding backwards. We need a new metric to include spending a week with four kids home from school, or short commuter flights, fly in, fly out the same day. Sleep is a huge issue.