Tour Power Data

[kopride]

my best was around 340watts, REAL power. I am a bigger rider, so that doesn't go very far as 340 would go for most pros.


So if NP does include zeros, then I am mistaken. I was under the impression it excluded all zeros. How is NP calculated?

From the CP website:

By taking these factors into account, normalized power provides a better measure of the true physiological demands of a given training session - in essence, it is an estimate of the power that you could have maintained for the same physiological "cost" if your power output had been perfectly constant (e.g., as on a stationary cycle ergometer), rather than variable. Keeping track of normalized power is therefore a more accurate way of quantifying the actual intensity of training sessions, or even races. For example, it is common for average power to be lower during criteriums than during equally-difficult road races, simply because of the time spent soft-pedaling or coasting through sharp turns during a criterium. Assuming that they are about the same duration, however, the normalized power for both types of events will generally be very similar, reflecting their equivalent intensity. In fact, normalized power during a hard ~1 hour long criterium or road race will often be similar to what a rider can average when pedaling continuously during flat 40k time trial - the normalized power from mass start races can therefore often be used to provide an initial estimate of a rider's threshold power (see below).

Therefore, if your NP was 450 during an hour long crit, then that figure is pretty close to your FTP, which is defined as a one hour TT under good conditions. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that a person with a 340 FTP, would have a NP of 450 after a one hour crit. +90 watts is more than just having a good day. FWIW, 340 is a pretty darn good FTP and should make you very competitive on the local club scene. It would not surprise me if someone with a FTP in this range could ride @260 for a few hours.

 

[acoggan]

it is highly unlikely that a person with a 340 FTP, would have a NP of 450 after a one hour crit.

I'd say that it's more than highly unlikely, I'd say that it is practically impossible. The algorithm can sometimes overestimate, but I've never seen it do so to such a large degree.

 

[kopride]

KO,

I never checked out the 2008 ftp thread. I can see we will all be pretty soon doing nationals. Can not wait to quit my job, maybe head to europe, start racing everyday in Italy...and those eurochicks are hot!

He is not here posting about whether 260 watts is good for 3 hours or not....

...not that he would care.

-js

I will try and see if I can post a one hour 260 on your CT next week, if you are around sometime Fri? I will be with the wife, so no need to have the eurochicks waiting in the wings for me afterwards. Good luck to your buddy.

 

[kopride]

I'd say that it's more than highly unlikely, I'd say that it is practically impossible. The algorithm can sometimes overestimate, but I've never seen it do so to such a large degree.

I tried to be charitable in using "highly unlikely.' But to put the power numbers in perspective, here is a link showing the power numbers from a one hour crit, National class (Nature Valley Grand Prix, MN) with a mix of top pros and ams, on a flat course where weight would presumably be less a factor, but bike skills certainly were. Even the pro didn't post numbers anywhere near 400 watts. This is a premiere crit with some very good riders.
http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink,guid,61f82c87-661c-4fbc-a25c-9572e58bcd75.aspx

What does it show. First, given good bike skills, you can play with the big boys with @300 watts FTP on tap. Second, when you start approaching 4.3 watts/kg or 340 watts for an hour, you start to get into very elite territory. Third, if you can average 450 in a one hour crit, then you are a houshold name, or at least a sponsored pro, not a middling cat 3 club rider. So again, please excuse my healthy skepticism.

 

[jsirabella]

Tomorrow or next week? I am around both times, just let me know. I will pm you my phone number and address.

-js

I will try and see if I can post a one hour 260 on your CT next week, if you are around sometime Fri? I will be with the wife, so no need to have the eurochicks waiting in the wings for me afterwards. Good luck to your buddy.

 

[velomanct]

Forget the 450 figure, I was under the impression earlier that NP meant not including zeros. Now that I know this is not the case, that estimate is irrelevant.

I looked back into some old data for a crit I did 3 years ago, I still have cyclingpeaks and it has my NP for 1 hour at 352watts. This was not a very hard crit, although it wasn't EASY. I tried to post the file but it won't let me. I actually ended up getting taken out on the last corner as I was positioning myself for the final sprint. It was a p/1/2/3 crit. I couldn't do a real average power that high, 352, so that's why I don't believe in NP.

Looking at some other files, I see a NP for 10 min at 420watts. This is actual data on cyclingpeaks, no estimate. That was the one and only race I won, I believe the final 10 minutes of the road race. Same here, I couldn't do 420w for 10 min, for REAL.

Looking at another road race, it says 1 min NP of 792watts. I believe this is yet another overestimate from what I could really do. Actual average was 630 for that minute.

4.3w/kg for an hour is not near elite territory. Low cat 2 range according to Andy's table, in fact.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Forget the 450 figure, I was under the impression earlier that NP meant not including zeros. Now that I know this is not the case, that estimate is irrelevant.

I looked back into some old data for a crit I did 3 years ago, I still have cyclingpeaks and it has my NP for 1 hour at 352watts. This was not a very hard crit, although it wasn't EASY. I tried to post the file but it won't let me. I actually ended up getting taken out on the last corner as I was positioning myself for the final sprint. It was a p/1/2/3 crit. I couldn't do a real average power that high, 352, so that's why I don't believe in NP.

Looking at some other files, I see a NP for 10 min at 420watts. This is actual data on cyclingpeaks, no estimate. That was the one and only race I won, I believe the final 10 minutes of the road race. Same here, I couldn't do 420w for 10 min, for REAL.

Looking at another road race, it says 1 min NP of 792watts. I believe this is yet another overestimate from what I could really do. Actual average was 630 for that minute.

4.3w/kg for an hour is not near elite territory. Low cat 2 range according to Andy's table, in fact.

I suggest you do some reading up on Normalised Power before you go and **** it off. Clearly your understanding of it is limited.

1. NP is not recommended for assessing efforts less than 20-mins, even then 20-min is considered the very low end of using NP as a valid indicator.

2. WKO+ doesn't even calculate NP for periods as short as 1-min, so I'm curious as to how you came up with such a figure (esp given in a previous post you asked how it was calculated and so you probably haven't built your own NP calcualtor)

3. You say the crit had an NP of 352 watts and your known 1 hour power is 340 watts. That's only a 3.5% difference. NP from a hard 1 hour race is considered (with very few exceptions) to be within 5% of a rider's FTP. You are well within that 5% tolerance.


The above assumes that FTP is properly measured and that the power meter used is calibrated and zeroed.

 

[velomanct]

I suggest you do some reading up on Normalised Power before you go and **** it off. Clearly your understanding of it is limited.

1. NP is not recommended for assessing efforts less than 20-mins, even then 20-min is considered the very low end of using NP as a valid indicator.

2. WKO+ doesn't even calculate NP for periods as short as 1-min, so I'm curious as to how you came up with such a figure (esp given in a previous post you asked how it was calculated and so you probably haven't built your own NP calcualtor)

3. You say the crit had an NP of 352 watts and your known 1 hour power is 340 watts. That's only a 3.5% difference. NP from a hard 1 hour race is considered (with very few exceptions) to be within 5% of a rider's FTP. You are well within that 5% tolerance.


The above assumes that FTP is properly measured and that the power meter used is calibrated and zeroed.

That crit wasn't that hard, I had much more left in the tank. Having said that, I'm sure if I had done a really hard crit, NP could be significantly higher and not near my 340 FTP. Had I done a 1 hour TT, I'd be blown and hurting a lot more. What's the point in comparing a crit done at say 70% effort to a TT of equal duration which would obviously be done at 100%? I have yet to do a "maximal" effort crit.

In my above post, I got that date from cyclingpeaks, it calculates NP all the way down to 30 seconds I think. I understand it may not be useful below 20 min.

If NP works well with your training goals, great. I just don't have a use for it. But then again, I can see how being so overly analytical can be detrimental to training in the big picture. Do how you please though.

 

[Alex Simmons]

That crit wasn't that hard, I had much more left in the tank. Having said that, I'm sure if I had done a really hard crit, NP could be significantly higher and not near my 340 FTP. Had I done a 1 hour TT, I'd be blown and hurting a lot more. What's the point in comparing a crit done at say 70% effort to a TT of equal duration which would obviously be done at 100%? I have yet to do a "maximal" effort crit.

In my above post, I got that date from cyclingpeaks, it calculates NP all the way down to 30 seconds I think. I understand it may not be useful below 20 min.

If NP works well with your training goals, great. I just don't have a use for it. But then again, I can see how being so overly analytical can be detrimental to training in the big picture. Do how you please though.

Just because you don't know how to use a screwdriver doesn't mean it isn't useful (to you or anyone else).

And if you choose to use it as a chisel, then you'll get the output you deserve.

Who said anything about knowing NP as being overly analytical?

Indeed, judicious use of NP actually reduces the need to be overly analytical about training data - it actually frees us up from wondering how to analyse the physiological strain/stress from rides of quite different types. It gives us a lot of freedom that those who get stuck in the "zone drone" mentality seem to miss.

If you want to criticise NP, then post some real and valid data to back up what you say.

Using a calibrated and zeroed meter:
- Do a proper FTP test.
- Do a hard 1hr race.
- Post the data.

You have not done so, so it is very hard to take your comments seriously.

 

[acoggan]

2. WKO+ doesn't even calculate NP for periods as short as 1-min, so I'm curious as to how you came up with such a figure

Early versions of CyclingPeaks (before it was renamed WKO+) would give you normalized power down to such short durations, as it simply never occured to me that people wouldn't realize that the algorithm shouldn't be trusted under such conditions. As you indicated, I don't think that it should be applied to anything less than 20-30 min worth of data, but since some people were already "hooked" on the information, we compromised and made the lower limit in WKO+ to be 5 min.

You say the crit had an NP of 352 watts and your known 1 hour power is 340 watts. That's only a 3.5% difference. NP from a hard 1 hour race is considered (with very few exceptions) to be within 5% of a rider's FTP. You are well within that 5% tolerance.

Bingo.

 

[kopride]

4.3w/kg for an hour is not near elite territory. Low cat 2 range according to Andy's table, in fact.

It might be just semantics, "elite v. near elite" but Cat 2 is where you are getting into the near elite territory in my view. And again, here is one of the toughest crits in the US, and you are seeing established pros with these numbers. This level in no way can be compared with the boys on the grand tours. Even 352 (NP or AP) is some serious power to put out during a local flat one hour crit, more than you would expect from a middling Cat 3, but not outside the realm of possibility.

Again, the purpose of the thread was that here is real world data from the big boys to give us all perspective. Initially, your response seemed like "that ain't so hard" and you started talking about pretty superhuman numbers. If you have a FTP of 340, and can produce 352 during a one hour crit, then you are a stud in anyone's book, and could finish well in the front group in one of the toughest crits in the country, provided you are a reasonably good bike handler. Good luck with your training

 

[postal_bag]

Sure, on a one time effort, I could see someone with a 300 FTP holding 87% of FTP for 3 hours. But what is being described in the TDF power profile is that after they have been riding like that for three hours, the pack then takes it up another 70 watts for 1.5 hours. Perhaps with a few 30 minute efforts at 140 watts above threshold. And then do it day in and day out for nearly a month, with a 400 watt TT for 40 minutes being thrown in there as well. These guys are silly scary fast.

Sorry, I was referring to the Hungarian rider's recent CT ride, not the tour data. Not really the same ballpark.

 

[kopride]

Back when I was training for endurance I did one tempo ride at 322watts average (including the 0s during turns and such) for up to 3 hours (at 80kg). My best 20 minute effort was a rolling ~8 miles at 350w real average, none of that normalized power BS where you guys don't include the zeros.
I've have NP during crits at around 450watts for an hour. .

On second thought, tempo is 76%-90%, but your best 20 minute effort is 350, and you claim a 340 FTP. So, assuming that you can ride 90% of FTP, which is the very upper limit of tempo, for 3 hours, which is pretty freaking hard for a "tempo" ride, you are looking at a 306 average, not 322. None of your numbers seem to add up. For example, when I am doing 3 hour tempo ride, I struggle to average 220 with a FTP of 283. 220 is about 79% of my FTP, and at the lower ranges of L3. You apparently can ride well within the mid range of L4 for several hours. And initially claimed NP figures exceeding your threshold by more than 20%. Do you see why someone might look at this kind of post with suspician, particularly when we can see what pros do in actual races and tours?

 

[velomanct]

On second thought, tempo is 76%-90%, but your best 20 minute effort is 350, and you claim a 340 FTP. So, assuming that you can ride 90% of FTP, which is the very upper limit of tempo, for 3 hours, which is pretty freaking hard for a "tempo" ride, you are looking at a 306 average, not 322. None of your numbers seem to add up. For example, when I am doing 3 hour tempo ride, I struggle to average 220 with a FTP of 283. 220 is about 79% of my FTP, and at the lower ranges of L3. You apparently can ride well within the mid range of L4 for several hours. And initially claimed NP figures exceeding your threshold by more than 20%. Do you see why someone might look at this kind of post with suspician, particularly when we can see what pros do in actual races and tours?

My bad, I likely used the word 'tempo' incorrectly. The 3 hr effort at 322watts real average was more like a 3 hr TT. I was barely able to do the remaining 3 miles 'cooldown' to get home, it hurt that bad.

I'm a decent crit rider, (well, I was). I can hold my own in local 1.2 crits, but not the hilly road races.

"Even 352 (NP or AP) is some serious power to put out during a local flat one hour crit, more than you would expect from a middling Cat 3, but not outside the realm of possibility."

It happens in just about every local 1.2.3 crit that either has a lot of corners or high winds, and when the rider doesn't sit on wheels the whole time.


Remember, the 450 number was a complete mistake, I apologize. The way I came up with that estimate was when I assumed NP was calculated without zeros, and during a hard crit I'd either be in the 400-700watt range or coasting most of the time. But of course that was just an estimate, not a real NP figure.

All the other numbers are real and accurate, as I've had two powertaps now that give the same numbers, always zeroed and calibrated. They may seem high to you, but remember, I'm a bigger rider at 6'1" 176-183lbs. Most pros where you see them do 400w for a 30 minute TT, they are likely 140-160lbs.

In the end, I think there is too much comparison and looking at numbers. None of my numbers mean anything, results are what count. I've only won one cat 3 race, nothing elite about that.

 

[velomanct]

Another thing, I don't even race much at all anymore. I'm not into the long murderous endurance workouts anymore. So I won't be getting any new endurance data.

I just ride for fun, do the group ride once a week, do a lot of sprinting which I enjoy, and that's about it. I'm probably still at 90% of my endurance peak fitness anyway. It's not worth it for me to kill myself to get that extra 20watts FTP. I don't even care about FTP anymore lol.

When I said overly analytical, I imagine guys being a slave to their powermeter and all these figures and numbers and %s. The best riders that I know, they don't use powermeters, but they do go out there and ride like an animal. But if all the numbers work for you, then that's great. I'm not going to say you should train this way or that way.

 

[acoggan]

When I said overly analytical, I imagine guys being a slave to their powermeter and all these figures and numbers and %s.

You said it, not me.

 

[acoggan]

My bad, I likely used the word 'tempo' incorrectly. The 3 hr effort at 322watts real average was more like a 3 hr TT.

So if I understand correctly:

1) you were able to sustain 322 W for 3 h;

2) you could produce 340 W for 1 h;

3) you could produce 350 W for 20 min;

4) your normalized power during a ~1 h criterium was 352 W;

5) you weigh/weighed ~180 lbs;

6) you consider yourself a "decent" crit rider who can "hold their own" in such events against local P/1/2 riders, but your license says cat. 3 and you have only won one race.

Personally, I look at those numbers, and they all seem to make perfect sense: with a functional threshold power of just over 4 W/kg, the only way you're going to advance from cat. 3 to cat. 2 is if you've got a good sprint (which it sounds like you do have) and you race enough to learn how to position yourself properly to put it to good use. There's certainly nothing in them to suggest that either the data coming from the riders in this year's Tour are incorrect, or that the normalized power algorithm is significantly biased...am I missing something?

 

[velomanct]

No, there's no problem.

I actually did upgrade to cat 2 back when I got those numbers and won that race. Everything does make sense, yes. I have no issues really.

Perhaps David Millar's TT at 400watts for 36minutes wasn't a full 100% effort since it's the begining of the tour? IDK. There's many factors to it. On the other hand, by no means do I think the tour riders are not great athletes. My original post was a reaction that they SHOULD be exceptional athletes, as in, it's not suprising to me to see what they can do.

 

[TheDarkLord]

No, there's no problem.

I actually did upgrade to cat 2 back when I got those numbers and won that race. Everything does make sense, yes. I have no issues really.

Perhaps David Millar's TT at 400watts for 36minutes wasn't a full 100% effort since it's the begining of the tour? IDK. There's many factors to it. On the other hand, by no means do I think the tour riders are not great athletes. My original post was a reaction that they SHOULD be exceptional athletes, as in, it's not suprising to me to see what they can do.

Well, can you keep doing this for 3 weeks continuously with 2 rest days?

 

[tonyzackery]

In the end, I think there is too much comparison and looking at numbers. None of my numbers mean anything, results are what count. I've only won one cat 3 race, nothing elite about that.

Wholeheartedly agree with this statement...In the 2008 FTP thread I put out the challenge (really just a solicitation) for some of those individuals high on the list to post some results (especially time trial times) as I'm curious as to where 5w/kg stacks up against their competition. You will notice that there have been very few results posted from those of the upper echelon...