Re: This group is full of morons



Fred Fredburger wrote:
> I've read enough of your stuff that I have problems believing that you're
> less aware of life's general absurdity than I am. That doesn't wash. Maybe
> you just know fewer dumb sober people than I do. I find that alcohol
> sometimes even IMPROVES that situation. It's hard to say anything dumb
> when you've passed out.


The day after can lead to nausea and there are some philosophical
precedents for linking nausea and absurdity.
 
"Paul G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:735cfc90-c883-496d-80c6-322609b44f67@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> However, my point is "NASCAR racing doesn't require a very high
> fitness level" compared with pro cycling. Some of them are overweight,
> some of them are regular smokers, maybe some are both, but they can
> still win races. That would be impossible in professional cycling.


What I can't quite figure out is how you turned into a target for so many
people. Can't say that I see anything particularly insulting in any of your
postings.
 
Tom Kunich wrote;

>Mike, I wonder what the hell has gotten under your
>skin? I remember when you used to be a joy
>to read.


I agree Tom. I've been suckered in lately haven't I?
Thanks for reminding me what my priorities should be and what my energy
shouldn't be wasted on.
I _sincerely_ appreciate your input. It was certainly needed!

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
Paul G. wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> If smoking is a determining factor in athleticness, you should know that a
>> fair number of riders smoke socially in the off season, some even in the
>> disco the night after a race.

>
> Ah- perhaps that explains why the French do so poorly in the TDF. I
> can picture them with cigarettes dangling from their lips while they
> inject EPO. I have no personal knowledge of any smoking by
> professional cyclists, (I can't recall ever seeing even a club rider
> smoking) but in a large enough population I suppose some anomalous
> stuff goes on, particularly in the off season. You have any names to
> go with that "a fair number of riders smoke" statement?


Names? A lot, especially at parties/in bars. You must not have a lot of
personal knowledge of professional cyclists *regardless* of their
smoking habits. IME, (social) smoking is not so much positively
correlated to sporting habits as to education level and/or social group.
(God, I sound like the Kunkun Master.) In Europe, for pro or amateur
cyclists (as opposed to recreational cyclists), both are lower than
average, I guess.
 
Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
> positively correlated


Sorry, negatively. Or "the lack of [etc]", is positively correlated.
Anyway, you know what I mean. Dumb people smoke.
 
"Michael Baldwin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Kunich wrote;
>
>>Mike, I wonder what the hell has gotten under your
>>skin? I remember when you used to be a joy
>>to read.

>
> I agree Tom. I've been suckered in lately haven't I?
> Thanks for reminding me what my priorities should be and what my energy
> shouldn't be wasted on.
> I _sincerely_ appreciate your input. It was certainly needed!


We all fall into that trap sometime. The problem is that the result is that
most of the good posters don't come back and those who remain are mostly not
worthy of reading.

If we want to restart the group we have to try to avoid discussing things
with the likes of Kyle or Henry.
 
"Ted van de Weteringe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Paul G. wrote:
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>> If smoking is a determining factor in athleticness, you should know that
>>> a
>>> fair number of riders smoke socially in the off season, some even in the
>>> disco the night after a race.

>>
>> Ah- perhaps that explains why the French do so poorly in the TDF. I
>> can picture them with cigarettes dangling from their lips while they
>> inject EPO. I have no personal knowledge of any smoking by
>> professional cyclists, (I can't recall ever seeing even a club rider
>> smoking) but in a large enough population I suppose some anomalous
>> stuff goes on, particularly in the off season. You have any names to
>> go with that "a fair number of riders smoke" statement?

>
> Names? A lot, especially at parties/in bars. You must not have a lot of
> personal knowledge of professional cyclists *regardless* of their smoking
> habits. IME, (social) smoking is not so much positively correlated to
> sporting habits as to education level and/or social group. (God, I sound
> like the Kunkun Master.) In Europe, for pro or amateur cyclists (as
> opposed to recreational cyclists), both are lower than average, I guess.


Paul,

I have plenty, but I wouldn't list them here without their consent and it's
not something I would consider bothering them for. However, this is more of
a European rider activity than an American one. But why do you point fingers
directly at the French?
 
On Mar 12, 1:18 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Paul G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:735cfc90-c883-496d-80c6-322609b44f67@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > However, my point is "NASCAR racing doesn't require a very high
> > fitness level" compared with pro cycling. Some of them are overweight,
> > some of them are regular smokers, maybe some are both, but they can
> > still win races. That would be impossible in professional cycling.

>
> What I can't quite figure out is how you turned into a target for so many
> people. Can't say that I see anything particularly insulting in any of your
> postings.


I didn't get around to insulting you? I must have slipped up in the
melee, I can't keep all these names straight. ;-) I intended the
NASCAR vs cycling thing to be amusing- at least to cyclists. I'm
somewhat sorry that it didn't come off that way, but like I've said, I
enjoy a good brawl too. Note my email address. That's a joke- and a
warning. I can be abrasive when provoked, right Mr. Baldwin?

I must say, I expected better in a bike racing newsgroup- better
reading comprehension skills, a better grasp of physics, and the
ability to discern the relevant from the trivial. More Jobst Brandt,
less Joe Sixpack. Excuse me, make that "Joe LIVEDRUNK".
-Paul
 
Paul G. writes;

>I can be abrasive when provoked, right Mr. Baldwin?


Friendships come with expectations, I plan to continue building both.
No further comment. - Mike Baldwin
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Fred Fredburger <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > I only try to mention LIVEDRUNK in threads where the
> > subject of alcohol is already present or seems obviously relevant.
> >

>
> And, given the prevalence of NASCAR threads lately, that's pretty much
> all of them.
>
> > The problem is that somewhere along the line, LIVEDRUNK became,
> > reasonably, a shorthand explanation for dumb behavior, and then shortly
> > after that, professional cycling became an orgy of dumb behavior.

>
> I've read enough of your stuff that I have problems believing that
> you're less aware of life's general absurdity than I am. That doesn't
> wash. Maybe you just know fewer dumb sober people than I do. I find that
> alcohol sometimes even IMPROVES that situation. It's hard to say
> anything dumb when you've passed out.


Alcohol helps me deal with professional cycling.

An honest, sober truth here for a moment: does anyone else besides me
find televised road cycling mostly really boring? It takes three to six
hours to complete, and the actual "action" is sporadic and subtle.

Even something epic and decisive like key mountain stages in the Tour
typically end up with two to three hours of fairly normal riding
punctuated by about an hour of indecisive suffering usually followed by
a half hour or so of sudden, vital action, followed by 10-30 minutes of
guttingly hard work by those about to collect the spoils.

That's great, but it's the primary actual action (outside of 10 minutes
at the end of sprinter's stages) in the entire Tour, which lasts 27 days.

The random typical moment seen in a bike race involves a bunch of riders
cruising just a bit faster than the group 5 minutes ahead of them, with
no obvious transformation of the course of the race. Not many sports are
like that. Or the sport is golf, which is largely watched by its many
participants.

I say this as someone who loves cycling (virtually any non-downhill
discipline) as a participation sport. I can even watch track racing or
CX or the occasional crit. But I wonder if the nature of road cycling
was and is best suited to the print medium. If you distill a day's
racing into a single news report, it gives you the chance to concentrate
on the (very real, very intense) action that is inevitably scattered
about the race in bits and pieces.

For that matter, I think NASCAR has a similar problem: extremely long,
largely indecisive races that essentially come down to which of the
drivers in the front 10 manages to be the cleverest during the final lap.

I mean, yeah, I realize you only get into the front 10 by being a good
driver in a good car with a good setup, but they drove 600 miles to
settle it like that? I don't know if a NASCAR race ended last year with
a single driver gaining a substantial advantage on the field, but I
doubt it. In the few races where the track naturally tends to divide the
cars up into separate packs, they inevitably get chunked back into one
big group by some yellow flag or another.

But I digress.

I'm not really sure, Fred, what your statement all the way up there is
supposed to mean. I think you believe that I think the present state of
cycling is unusually absurd and that I'm trying to either explain it or
mitigate it through alcohol.

Yes and no. I think there's always absurd behavior in life, and my own
life is a bit of a celebration of it (you can't take a guy very
seriously when his personal website is "the world's only cybermorphic
weblog.") But the concentration of absurd behavior in cycling has
reached operatic proportions.

I don't say that because I'm impressed by the grand themes of the
various Alphabet Soup Wars that pro cycling is presently engaged in. I
say that because I think most operas have plotlines that range from
obvious to idiotic:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot_plot>

Though I suppose the UCI attempt to reach greatness by pulling itself up
from its bootstraps is sort of Wagnerian.

> For whatever reason, some things get repeated a lot in RBR.
> groups.google.com says that livedrunk (sometimes spelled "live drunk"?)
> outnumbers Starbucks references (for any reason at all) by better than
> 2-1. So you're bigger than Starbucks, if you want to look at it that way.


I have the advantage of still being active in this group, unlike the
Sausalito Starbucks set, and preferring rbr to training. I suck.

Now, it's back to painting my kitchen. Stupid life. What am I saying? I
love my stupid life! I love my stupid cyclocross bike, I love
web-gardening for my bike club's website, I love that my Friday plan
involves (weather permitting) starting out before 7am, driving for an
hour with a friend, and then riding CX bikes a couple of hours along a
fire road to check out the access to a hot spring. Then we come back.

It's a good life! I recommend it! The modest consumption of alcohol
doesn't seem to hurt, either.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:

> Paul G. writes;
>
> >I can be abrasive when provoked, right Mr. Baldwin?

>
> Friendships come with expectations, I plan to continue building both.
> No further comment. - Mike Baldwin


By the way, Mike, I hope you didn't really point that guy over to NASCAR forums -
I'd just as soon they don't think he's representative of all cyclists. Gives us all a
bad name, you know?

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
On Mar 12, 4:29 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Ted van de Weteringe" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Paul G. wrote:
> >> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> >>> If smoking is a determining factor in athleticness, you should know that
> >>> a
> >>> fair number of riders smoke socially in the off season, some even in the
> >>> disco the night after a race.

>
> >> Ah- perhaps that explains why the French do so poorly in the TDF. I
> >> can picture them with cigarettes dangling from their lips while they
> >> inject EPO. I have no personal knowledge of any smoking by
> >> professional cyclists, (I can't recall ever seeing even a club rider
> >> smoking) but in a large enough population I suppose some anomalous
> >> stuff goes on, particularly in the off season. You have any names to
> >> go with that "a fair number of riders smoke" statement?

>
> > Names? A lot, especially at parties/in bars. You must not have a lot of
> > personal knowledge of professional cyclists *regardless* of their smoking
> > habits. IME, (social) smoking is not so much positively correlated to
> > sporting habits as to education level and/or social group. (God, I sound
> > like the Kunkun Master.) In Europe, for pro or amateur cyclists (as
> > opposed to recreational cyclists), both are lower than average, I guess.

>
> Paul,
>
> I have plenty, but I wouldn't list them here without their consent and it's
> not something I would consider bothering them for. However, this is more of
> a European rider activity than an American one. But why do you point fingers
> directly at the French?


That's a joke- you know the stereotype Frenchman- beret, cigarette.
You know, this guy: http://tinyurl.com/2zmahz Or maybe this guy is
more familiar: http://tinyurl.com/292x73

At least I always thought those were cigarettes- maybe that's a
section of steaming pig intestine dangling from their lips.
Considering your observation that this smoking is a European thing, I
wonder if the American cyclists have done so well in the last decades
because they bring in duty free cigarettes and pass them out to the
competition. Maybe that's how Greg LeMond beat Fignon by 8 seconds
in the 1989 TDF...

Is Fignon one of the smokers? C'mon, you can tell us. Maybe he was
dying for a cigarette when he finished the final time trial.
-Paul
 
On Mar 12, 8:31 pm, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
>
> > Paul G. writes;

>
> > >I can be abrasive when provoked, right Mr. Baldwin?

>
> > Friendships come with expectations, I plan to continue building both.
> > No further comment. - Mike Baldwin

>
> By the way, Mike, I hope you didn't really point that guy over to NASCAR forums -
> I'd just as soon they don't think he's representative of all cyclists. Gives us all a
> bad name, you know?


Ah yes, the bruise expert. I will always cherish these lines of
yours:

"As I said previously, how badly is his foot bruised? Are you aware
that
there are seriously different degrees of bruising?"

Now THAT'S some serious comedic talent!

-Paul
 
Paul G. wrote:
> I must say, I expected better in a bike racing newsgroup- better reading
> comprehension skills, a better grasp of physics


Just wait until Magilla and Schwartz start debating cornering speed on a
velodrome.
 
In article <1482bfa5-7bf2-4891-b072-2dbdd3dbb15d@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
"Paul G." <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mar 12, 8:31 pm, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
> >
> > > Paul G. writes;

> >
> > > >I can be abrasive when provoked, right Mr. Baldwin?

> >
> > > Friendships come with expectations, I plan to continue building both.
> > > No further comment. - Mike Baldwin

> >
> > By the way, Mike, I hope you didn't really point that guy over to NASCAR
> > forums - I'd just as soon they don't think he's representative of all cyclists.
> > Gives us all a bad name, you know?

>
> Ah yes, the bruise expert. I will always cherish these lines of yours:
>
> "As I said previously, how badly is his foot bruised? Are you aware that
> there are seriously different degrees of bruising?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruising

> Now THAT'S some serious comedic talent!


The comedy lies in your ability to continuously demonstrate your silliness and raw
ignorance. Claiming that others don't understand physics, yet can't recognize that
drivers in high speed crashes get beat up, roll cages and helmets nothwithstanding.
You said your face looks like it was dragged down Hwy1 because it was - perhaps there
was also some internal damage.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> An honest, sober truth here for a moment: does anyone else besides me
> find televised road cycling mostly really boring? It takes three to six
> hours to complete, and the actual "action" is sporadic and subtle.
>
> Even something epic and decisive like key mountain stages in the Tour
> typically end up with two to three hours of fairly normal riding
> punctuated by about an hour of indecisive suffering usually followed by
> a half hour or so of sudden, vital action, followed by 10-30 minutes of
> guttingly hard work by those about to collect the spoils.


Ah yes, a stage race perspective. Watching the Tour is best done on
the terrace, doing some work on the laptop, Leffe Blond at hand,
listening to the TV commentary with the occasional glance to confirm:
yes the landscape is still pretty. Turn the chair a little whenever
you hear them getting excited about the action.

Some windy one-day classics can be interesting from the start.
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
<snipped a bunch of stuff that I agree with, including the comments of
TdF mountain stages>

> But I digress.
>
> I'm not really sure, Fred, what your statement all the way up there is
> supposed to mean. I think you believe that I think the present state of
> cycling is unusually absurd and that I'm trying to either explain it or
> mitigate it through alcohol.


You guessed correctly in 2 ways.

The one thing that's unsaid is that I thought it was worthy of mention
that you recognized you probably had no right to complain about repeated
inside jokes, but you did it anyway.

That's not intended personally. We're talking about absurdity here and
so it fits nicely. Something basic to human nature causes us to act in
contradictory/absurd ways.

>
> Yes and no. I think there's always absurd behavior in life, and my own
> life is a bit of a celebration of it (you can't take a guy very
> seriously when his personal website is "the world's only cybermorphic
> weblog.") But the concentration of absurd behavior in cycling has
> reached operatic proportions.


Here's where we disagree. I believe that absurd behavior in many forms
of public life has reached operatic proportions. What's Britney Spears
up to lately, and why does anyone care? The sniping between the Clinton
and Obama campaigns is full of calculated absurdity. People are getting
PAID to think of this stuff and we choose our rulers based upon which of
them produces absurdities the most effectively. In contrast, the UCI is
minor.

>
> I don't say that because I'm impressed by the grand themes of the
> various Alphabet Soup Wars that pro cycling is presently engaged in. I
> say that because I think most operas have plotlines that range from
> obvious to idiotic:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiot_plot>
>
> Though I suppose the UCI attempt to reach greatness by pulling itself up
> from its bootstraps is sort of Wagnerian.


Yes. It's one of those things that you look at and say "What the hell?"
and wonder whether someone should stop them before they hurt themselves.
I've decided I hope they do (hurt themselves).

>
>> For whatever reason, some things get repeated a lot in RBR.
>> groups.google.com says that livedrunk (sometimes spelled "live drunk"?)
>> outnumbers Starbucks references (for any reason at all) by better than
>> 2-1. So you're bigger than Starbucks, if you want to look at it that way.

>
> I have the advantage of still being active in this group, unlike the
> Sausalito Starbucks set, and preferring rbr to training. I suck.


Some of those threads about Starbucks revolved around good coffee vs bad
coffee, digressions on the subject of bagels. Perfectly reasonable
threads that could never again happen in here without mentioning
Sausalito. Starbucks has been tainted.

>
> Now, it's back to painting my kitchen. Stupid life. What am I saying? I
> love my stupid life! I love my stupid cyclocross bike, I love
> web-gardening for my bike club's website, I love that my Friday plan
> involves (weather permitting) starting out before 7am, driving for an
> hour with a friend, and then riding CX bikes a couple of hours along a
> fire road to check out the access to a hot spring. Then we come back.
>
> It's a good life! I recommend it! The modest consumption of alcohol
> doesn't seem to hurt, either.
>


Very, very cool.
 
On Mar 12, 3:33 pm, Ted van de Weteringe
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
>
> > positively correlated

>
> Sorry, negatively. Or "the lack of [etc]", is positively correlated.
> Anyway, you know what I mean. Dumb people smoke.


Well what about me? I'm dumb and I don't smoke.
 
On Mar 12, 3:33 pm, Ted van de Weteringe
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
>
> > positively correlated

>
> Sorry, negatively. Or "the lack of [etc]", is positively correlated.
> Anyway, you know what I mean. Dumb people smoke.


That can't be right. I don't smoke.
 
On Mar 12, 6:05 pm, "Paul G." <[email protected]> wrote:

> I must say, I expected better in a bike racing newsgroup- better
> reading comprehension skills, a better grasp of physics, and the
> ability to discern the relevant from the trivial.


What planet have you been living on?

Starbucks. 8AM. Purple. Be there.
 

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