Power quest

[serpico7]

Do you have a resistance unit like one of the headwind fans on your rollers?

No resistance unit. But during my last 2x20 (at 151w), I was still in the middle ring, but yeah, at some point, I'll need to add resistance.

As long as you're not dripping in sweat you're probably o.k., but I run a big fan with 16" blades in front of an open window and I'm living at altitude in Wyoming where 20 below zero farenheit isn't unusual and zero is typical. Yesterday I rode the trainer with that setup and it's not the dead of winter here yet, but it was in the 20's and snowing. The fan was bringing fresh snow into the room but I was plenty warm once the SST work was under way. I'll typically warm up with a T shirt on and the fan turned off and then kick on the fan after I'm warmed up and before I start the main workout. The T shirt usually comes off a few minutes into my first SST effort. And even with a setup like that I'll go through at least a water bottle per hour during SST work.

Definitely sweating, and it is dripping off (dripping as opposed to pseudo-streaming), but I use a towel to wipe my face every few minutes. Now that my FTP estimate is considerably higher, I'll have to up my SST efforts, so I'll probably get quite a bit warmer. Given how much cooling you use, it sounds like I'll need a fan.

 

[kopride]

Good luck with your quest. I have been doing 2 x 20s as a fairly routine workout for a few months and have been seeing progress.

 

[serpico7]

Yesterday:
1x20 @ 151w AP

Today:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 152w AP

I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

 

[kopride]

Yesterday:
1x20 @ 151w AP

Today:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 152w AP

I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

Good job. We are on parallel quests. I think pounding it out on rollers is very tricky. But you will have great riding position to go along with your power numbers. I am going to do 2 x 20s for the next 6 weeks and see where I am with a one hour TT.

 

[Piotr]

Yesterday:
1x20 @ 151w AP

Today:
1x20 @ 151w AP
1x20 @ 152w AP

I'm starting to get used to hard efforts indoors on rollers.

There's a possibility that you're holding back considerably riding your rollers. Test your power outdoors. Do a 5 minute interval if you don't have the ability to go 20-30 min non-stop outdoors. Your FTP should be at least around 80% of that result. There's nothing magical or accurate about the 80% figure, but it will show you just how far off you might be in your FTP estimation.

 

[serpico7]

There's a possibility that you're holding back considerably riding your rollers. Test your power outdoors. Do a 5 minute interval if you don't have the ability to go 20-30 min non-stop outdoors. Your FTP should be at least around 80% of that result. There's nothing magical or accurate about the 80% figure, but it will show you just how far off you might be in your FTP estimation.

Yeah, riding indoor on rollers has been somewhat limiting in terms of power output, but it's gotten easier as I've learned to focus on these longer intervals (20m indoors is an eternity to me) and become accustomed to pushing hard on rollers.

Interestingly enough, if I look at my MMP curve, 5m MMP is 235w. 80% of that is 188, which is the peak 60m NP observed on a fast group ride, and is the figure I'm currently using as my FTP estimate.

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 152w AP
1x20 @ 156w AP

Still at the very low end of SST, but I think I can bump up the power on these intervals a bit more over the next couple of weeks.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Interestingly enough, if I look at my MMP curve, 5m MMP is 235w. 80% of that is 188, which is the peak 60m NP observed on a fast group ride, and is the figure I'm currently using as my FTP estimate...

Everybody's MMP curve is a bit different, but FWIW my 5 minute to FTP ratio in both last year and so far in this training year is roughly 86%.

Again the question comes up, have you specifically gone out and tried to put out a best effort for 5 minutes outdoors? A hard 5 minutes in the middle of a longer group ride isn't going to reflect your capabilities as you either are tired from the preceeding work, saving some energy for the rest of the ride or both.

I guess the roller based FTP test is valid as an estimate of what you can do on the rollers but I'd be very surprised if that reflects your FTP established outdoors under ideal conditions including sufficient: rest, warmup and motivation. FTP is defined to represent what you can do for ~ 1 hour under benign conditions as rmur17 likes to put it. Pulling a value from the middle of a long endurance ride or indoors while focusing on staying upright on the rollers without a resistance unit while spinning your brains out and without a lot of cooling hardly qualifies as benign conditions.

If it helps you set training levels then cool, it's useful as a representation of what you can do. But I suspect you're still selling yourself short in terms of FTP and simultaneously over estimating your TSS and CTL on the outdoor rides.

Are the outdoor rides pushing you to your limit occasionally? Do you get dropped and have to regroup after hard sections, especially longer climbs? If so I'd take a look at your histogram step down for the weekend rides and see what that tells you about FTP. But again, if you haven't pushed yourself hard and occaisionally too hard then it will still under estimate FTP.

Either way, your estimates are on the rise so you're moving in the right direction.

Stay with it, the numbers should keep getting better,
-Dave

 

[serpico7]

Everybody's MMP curve is a bit different, but FWIW my 5 minute to FTP ratio in both last year and so far in this training year is roughly 86%.

Again the question comes up, have you specifically gone out and tried to put out a best effort for 5 minutes outdoors? A hard 5 minutes in the middle of a longer group ride isn't going to reflect your capabilities as you either are tired from the preceeding work, saving some energy for the rest of the ride or both.

I guess the roller based FTP test is valid as an estimate of what you can do on the rollers but I'd be very surprised if that reflects your FTP established outdoors under ideal conditions including sufficient: rest, warmup and motivation. FTP is defined to represent what you can do for ~ 1 hour under benign conditions as rmur17 likes to put it. Pulling a value from the middle of a long endurance ride or indoors while focusing on staying upright on the rollers without a resistance unit while spinning your brains out and without a lot of cooling hardly qualifies as benign conditions.

If it helps you set training levels then cool, it's useful as a representation of what you can do. But I suspect you're still selling yourself short in terms of FTP and simultaneously over estimating your TSS and CTL on the outdoor rides.

Are the outdoor rides pushing you to your limit occasionally? Do you get dropped and have to regroup after hard sections, especially longer climbs? If so I'd take a look at your histogram step down for the weekend rides and see what that tells you about FTP. But again, if you haven't pushed yourself hard and occaisionally too hard then it will still under estimate FTP.

Either way, your estimates are on the rise so you're moving in the right direction.

Stay with it, the numbers should keep getting better,
-Dave

No, I have not tried a 5m, 20m or 60m "best effort" ride outdoors. I guess the problem is a combination of logistics and motivation. The nearest place for me to do a proper "best effort" ride is far enough away that I wouldn't go out there just to do an interval, but am frequently out there on group rides. On fast group rides, I've got plenty of motivation, but as you note, I've both used energy before the effort and have to save some energy for the remainder of the ride.

Yes, the group rides tend to push me to the limit, as I do get dropped and have to regroup. As I get more of those rides recorded with power, I'll get a better histogram from which to guess at my FTP.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I found doing 1x20 @ 152 today only slightly more difficult than 1x20 @ 136 two weeks ago, and a big part of that improvement is simply from adapting to the 20m interval format (previously, all solo efforts had been recovery type rides, whether indoors or outdoors). I think I'll be able to continue increasing the interval efforts, and eventually hope to get within SST levels for my "true" FTP.

 

[serpico7]

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 154w AP
1x20 @ 159w AP

Seems I'm always able to go harder on the second interval than I can on the first. Perhaps I'm not warming up sufficiently.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 154w AP
1x20 @ 159w AP

Seems I'm always able to go harder on the second interval than I can on the first. Perhaps I'm not warming up sufficiently.

You aren't alone in that

I always end up with higher power on my 2nd & 3rd set of intervals than the initial one. For me it isn't by accident as I'm very conscious of this tendency. Warming up could be part of it, but in any case, I like to 'ease' into the intervals (if that makes sense). It just feels easier on my body (and mind) to not go all out from the onset. Not a bad habit to do either for your TT'ing, if you partake in that type of racing.

Back to the intervals, I like doing the first one at 90% of FTP, then 95% for the 2nd, then maybe 100% for the third.

 

[serpico7]

Thanksgiving morning workout (earning the turkey):
1x20 @ 155w AP
1x20 @ 167w AP

 

[serpico7]

Black Friday workout (burning off the desserts):
1x20 @ 159w AP
1x20 @ 173w AP

 

[dhk2]

You aren't alone in that

I always end up with higher power on my 2nd & 3rd set of intervals than the initial one. For me it isn't by accident as I'm very conscious of this tendency. Warming up could be part of it, but in any case, I like to 'ease' into the intervals (if that makes sense). It just feels easier on my body (and mind) to not go all out from the onset. Not a bad habit to do either for your TT'ing, if you partake in that type of racing.

Back to the intervals, I like doing the first one at 90% of FTP, then 95% for the 2nd, then maybe 100% for the third.

+2 for easing into the tough intervals. I like to do a 10-15 min warm-up with building load up to the point of some initial leg discomfort, then recover for 5 minutes before getting into the real intervals. If I skip the full warmup, the legs get heavy and achy early on the 1st interval and then stay that way for the duration.

Also try to build up the power the way you've described. On a good day, the second and third intervals at higher output often feel better than the first one. On those other days, I just stay at 90% and think about next season

 

[serpico7]

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 149w AP
1x20 @ 164w AP
1x20 @ 175w AP

 

[serpico7]

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 169w AP
1x20 @ 175w AP

I'm running out of Tour de France videos!

 

[serpico7]

Today's workout:
1x20 @ 175w AP
1x20 @ 182w AP

The fan is making a huge difference in sustainable power output.

 

[serpico7]

Yesterday's workout:
1x20 @ 175w AP
1x20 @ 185w AP

 

[musher]

Yesterday's workout:
1x20 @ 175w AP
1x20 @ 185w AP

Hi, what gear are you using? 53 x .. or 39 x ..
Just wondering ,ride hard, Musher

 

[serpico7]

Hi, what gear are you using? 53 x .. or 39 x ..
Just wondering ,ride hard, Musher

How about 30 x . . . ?

At lower power levels, I was in the big ring and one of the smaller cogs. I recently got a Kreitler headwind unit for the rollers, so I'm down in the granny ring.

 

[FeelTheBurn]

How much rest do you put in between internvals?