only a total fred would use 36-spoke wheels...

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:07:07 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 11 Apr 2007 07:08:17 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
>>>wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
>>>frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
>>>Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
>>>I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
>>>with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
>>>approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
>>>Where's the problem?
>>
>> The problem is using a false example to back up an argument.
>> --
>> JT
>
>6000 mi. a year seems reasonable to me.
>
>I know of one pretty heavy rider who trains with a 36 spoke
>rear and a 32 front, and when he races uses his a 16/20.
>Very strong rider.

I ride 36 spoke wheels very often myself. Today in fact I'm using such
a wheel.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[Tom Nakashima]

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 08:07:07 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 11 Apr 2007 07:08:17 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
>>>>wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
>>>>frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
>>>>Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
>>>>I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
>>>>with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
>>>>approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
>>>>Where's the problem?
>>>
>>> The problem is using a false example to back up an argument.
>>> --
>>> JT
>>
>>6000 mi. a year seems reasonable to me.
>>
>>I know of one pretty heavy rider who trains with a 36 spoke
>>rear and a 32 front, and when he races uses his a 16/20.
>>Very strong rider.
>
> I ride 36 spoke wheels very often myself. Today in fact I'm using such
> a wheel.
> --
> JT

I also ride a 36 spoke wheel bike as my errand bike.
With the price of gas today, I've been using it quite a bit.
-tom

 

[John Thompson]

On 2007-04-09, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:

> No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/BallanBike001.jpg
>
> In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
> http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg

Funny boy. I'm still riding 36-spoke wheels I built over 20 years ago.
Do you think your low spoke count wheels will last that long?

--

John ([email protected])

 

[Camilo]

On Apr 11, 3:25 am, [email protected] wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:
>
> > That's weak evidence -- weak, blurry pictures. Every sharp photo
> > I've ever seen of a pro racing bike for any event other than
> > Paris-Roubaix in the last three or five years has had 32 spokes or
> > fewer. See if you can find one with 36. You can't.
>
> The pictures are just std. race photos, no better or worse than
> usually from cyclingnews.com.
> You call the evidence weak. But lets take the Ballan example:
>
> Look at Ballans bike here, notice the front wheel:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
> Take a closer look at the article:
> " "The team //mostly// uses these three-cross wheels in training,"
> Biron added as we looked at Ballan's wheels, which use Campagnolo
> Record hubs laced to tubular box-section rims. At 1.9 metres tall (6'
> 2"), Ballan needs a little extra strength and support when he rides,
> and the Italian rider runs 36 spokes up front as a result. "
>
> Notice how he says _mostly_, not _exclusively_. Also notice how Ballan
> rides with 36 at the front. So by Ballans own account that he and his
> team _race_ 3x spoke box rims, and that Ballan himself uses a 36 spoke
> front wheel, one can deduce, that 36 spoke 3x box rims can be found in
> present day Pro Tour races.
>
> --
> Regards
> peter_s

The statement in question "The team //mostly// uses these three-cross
wheels in training," can be interpreted two ways.

I think you are interpreting it to mean that they mostly use these
wheels in training and less often use the same wheels in racing?

I interpret it to mean that when training they mostly use these
wheels, and less often they use other wheels in training.

Therefore, I don't think they are implying that they use these wheels
in racing at all. They certainly COULD, (I have no idea and don't
care), but the statement does not imply that. JMHO, of course.

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 11, 1:07 pm, John Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-04-09, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>
> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>
> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
> >http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>
> Funny boy. I'm still riding 36-spoke wheels I built over 20 years ago.
> Do you think your low spoke count wheels will last that long?

One could very easily imply you do not ride much at all. Or at least
do not ride these wheels much. Kind of like the little old lady from
Florida who only drives her car to Church on Sunday. In 20+ years of
riding I have ridden enough miles to crash and break rims. And to
dent rims on potholes. And of course Mr. Brandt wears out rims every
couple years or less from braking going down mountains in the rain.
If you never use a piece of equipment, it will last almost forever.
How many tens upon tens of thousands of miles do you have on these 20+
year old 36 spoke wheels you built?

I do not consider rims to be wear items like some people on this
internet forum imply. But I definitely do not think they will last
20+ years with regular usage. Every time you apply the brake pads,
friction is created, and something wears away. Mostly the brake
pads. But a little bit of rim too.

>
> --
>
> John ([email protected])

 

[[email protected]]

Dan Connelly writes:

> No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these
> things:

http://tinyurl.com/27y5ne

I'd be more concerned about too long a seat post and colored tires on
wet roads. What is it you don't like about 36 spokes? I take it that
to you the essence of bicycling is image. Do you also have a jacked
up 4-door black pickup truck with chrome wheels, wide low cross
section tires, topped off with quad rumble pipes and blackened
windows. Just consider how many macho images you can pursue.

Appearance over substance!

> In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:

http://tinyurl.com/28da5e

There is more to bicycling than what you and apparently so many
riders, who have skewed the bicycle market completely out of its
course, think it is. If you think recumbent evangelists are a pain,
you might review your assessment of bicycling. This has been called
"jersey pro", a name that seems to fit.

Jobst Brandt

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 11 Apr 2007 14:55:13 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Apr 11, 1:07 pm, John Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2007-04-09, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>>
>> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:
>> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>>
>> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
>> >http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>>
>> Funny boy. I'm still riding 36-spoke wheels I built over 20 years ago.
>> Do you think your low spoke count wheels will last that long?
>
>One could very easily imply you do not ride much at all. Or at least
>do not ride these wheels much. Kind of like the little old lady from
>Florida who only drives her car to Church on Sunday. In 20+ years of
>riding I have ridden enough miles to crash and break rims. And to
>dent rims on potholes. And of course Mr. Brandt wears out rims every
>couple years or less from braking going down mountains in the rain.
>If you never use a piece of equipment, it will last almost forever.
>How many tens upon tens of thousands of miles do you have on these 20+
>year old 36 spoke wheels you built?
>
>I do not consider rims to be wear items like some people on this
>internet forum imply. But I definitely do not think they will last
>20+ years with regular usage. Every time you apply the brake pads,
>friction is created, and something wears away. Mostly the brake
>pads. But a little bit of rim too.

I've got a 20-year old wheel with the original rims I'm still riding.
On a windtrainer.....
>>
>> --
>>
>> John ([email protected])
>

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 9, 2:49 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 12:39 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
> wrote:
>
> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>
> If you bothered to read the article you would have written that the 36
> hole wheels were for training. He switched to the Campagnolo factory
> boutique Proton wheels for the RVV. So the 36 spoke wheels are the
> bike path trail wheels. And the factory boutique wheels are game day,
> winning wheels.
>
> "The team mostly uses these three-cross wheels in training," Biron
> added as we looked at Ballan's wheels, which use Campagnolo Record
> hubs laced to tubular box-section rims. At 1.9 metres tall (6' 2"),
> Ballan needs a little extra strength and support when he rides, and
> the Italian rider runs 36 spokes up front as a result.
>
> "For the races we will switch over to Campagnolo Proton wheels, still
> using tubulars with these tyres," continued Biron, referring to the
> team's Vittoria Pavé Evo treads. Ballan admittedly does not have that
> much time on those wheels, but apparently still feels confident enough
> to use them in key events. "I tried at Harelbeke [E3 Prijs] and I will
> probably use them on Sunday [for Ronde]. They work really well; they
> are very rigid enough for my use," summarized the 72kg (159lb) rider.
>
>
>
>
>
> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>
> > Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Looking at the pictures of Gent-Wevelgem on Cycling News, the factory
built wheels are used far more than regular spoked wheels on the
cobblestone classics. But some regular spoked wheels appear to be
used too. Just not many.

Picture from Cycling News of Milram bikes for Gent-Wevelgem. Appears
as if the third bike from the right has a normal spoked 3 cross wheel
instead of a factory built wheel. Second bike from right has factory
built wheels.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...d=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbMilramBikes

Lightweight brand carbon tubular rear wheel for Gent-Wevelgem. And a
factory built wheel for the front.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...hotos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbPozzatoBikes000

McEwen using Campagnolo tubular carbon Bora wheels.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs025

Couple pictures of Freire. First looks like he is using factory built
wheels. Second looks like regular spoke wheels.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs019

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC009


Petaachi using factory built wheels.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs018


First picture shows Boonen using regular spoked wheels and black 2007
Record hubs. Maybe 36 spokes. At least 32 by my count.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs034

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC001

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC002

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbBoonen

 

[A Muzi]

>> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>>> No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:
>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...

[email protected] wrote:
>> If you bothered to read the article you would have written that the 36
>> hole wheels were for training. He switched to the Campagnolo factory
>> boutique Proton wheels for the RVV. So the 36 spoke wheels are the
>> bike path trail wheels. And the factory boutique wheels are game day,
>> winning wheels.
>>
>> "The team mostly uses these three-cross wheels in training," Biron
>> added as we looked at Ballan's wheels, which use Campagnolo Record
>> hubs laced to tubular box-section rims. At 1.9 metres tall (6' 2"),
>> Ballan needs a little extra strength and support when he rides, and
>> the Italian rider runs 36 spokes up front as a result.
>>
>> "For the races we will switch over to Campagnolo Proton wheels, still
>> using tubulars with these tyres," continued Biron, referring to the
>> team's Vittoria Pavé Evo treads. Ballan admittedly does not have that
>> much time on those wheels, but apparently still feels confident enough
>> to use them in key events. "I tried at Harelbeke [E3 Prijs] and I will
>> probably use them on Sunday [for Ronde]. They work really well; they
>> are very rigid enough for my use," summarized the 72kg (159lb) rider.

>> Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>>> In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg

[email protected] wrote:
> Looking at the pictures of Gent-Wevelgem on Cycling News, the factory
> built wheels are used far more than regular spoked wheels on the
> cobblestone classics. But some regular spoked wheels appear to be
> used too. Just not many.
>
> Picture from Cycling News of Milram bikes for Gent-Wevelgem. Appears
> as if the third bike from the right has a normal spoked 3 cross wheel
> instead of a factory built wheel. Second bike from right has factory
> built wheels.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...d=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbMilramBikes
>
> Lightweight brand carbon tubular rear wheel for Gent-Wevelgem. And a
> factory built wheel for the front.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...hotos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbPozzatoBikes000
>
> McEwen using Campagnolo tubular carbon Bora wheels.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs025
>
> Couple pictures of Freire. First looks like he is using factory built
> wheels. Second looks like regular spoke wheels.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs019
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC009
>
>
> Petaachi using factory built wheels.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs018
>
>
> First picture shows Boonen using regular spoked wheels and black 2007
> Record hubs. Maybe 36 spokes. At least 32 by my count.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs034
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC001
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/LC002
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/gbBoonen
>

Russell's linked photo above:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs034

shows clearly 32h front and rear.

Find the valve or any point on the rim with a "big" opening between
spokes. If the seam (or a point directly across the rim) is in a "big"
opening then it's a 32 (or 24 or 40). If the opposite side from a "big"
is "small" then it's a 36 (or 28). (32 over four is eight - quite even;
36/4 is nine, half of which leaves a partial 4-spoke set remainder) This
is readily observed from across the street or in a relatively poor photo.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

the rear could be a 36: new screen.
xps?

 

[[email protected]]

gnaw. blew it up: 32

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 11, 6:42 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Here's my challenge to you -- find a clear photo of
> what you describe. It can be in race action or a photo of a bike
> obviously being used in a race. Just before the start is OK. Just
> after the finish is OK too, as long as the wheel was not changed in
> the race. With 36-hole wheels.
>
> I'll give you $100 and a year for that. Any pic in the last three
> years from any Protour (or future protour) race, Paris-Roubaix not
> included.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm thinking JFT might be right: 36 spoke wheels in pro tour races are
hard to find. Even when they ride "traditional" wheels in tough races,
the youngsters racing today must think 32 spokes are plenty:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...ex.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/wevelgem07/fs034

 

[[email protected]]

so 28 are too few?

 

[[email protected]]

"Skew the market", exactly!

At its simplest this 'debate' is just a conflict between that part of
the population which runs on cognitive autopilot and on the
otherhand, those who do what they want for their own reasons. Many
people are unable to tell the difference between what they want and
what the companies want you to want.

If person A. needs 36 spoke wheels, then he gets them. If person B is
so chronically crippled by his need to conform and to be controlled by
a sales influenced roleplaying 'script', then i guess we don't need to
have a discussion, because that person doesn't appear to have a self-
refernced thought of his or her own.

Some people do what they do, with little or NO reference to what
others think. It's funny to note that things have turned full circle
since the anti-conformity of the 60's. Conforming blindly seems to
have become a great deal more acceptable. Case in point Peoplecarriers
in the UK, simple 1950's idiotic 'keeping up with the Jones', such an
unsophisticated faux pas during the ironic 80's. So it seems to be
with the weightweenies movement in cycling, people believe everything
they're told, if the can feel some form of relief from the 'consumer
insecurity" which product A alleviates. Create a fear, then sell
something to quench it. Only a total Fred would ride 36 spokes, buy
our coincidentally cheaper to produce 28's, arrrrrrr, fear all gone.
More than just a hint of Walden 2 or 1984.

In the nicest possible way, those who ridicule others for this or that
consumption choice should spend a few years studying psychology and
then they might be a bit more understanding and kinder to fellow
posters.
Do what suits you, for your own reasons, and everyone is happy.
all the best, Nick.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Apr 12, 9:09 am, [email protected] wrote:
> "Skew the market", exactly!
>
> At its simplest this 'debate' is just a conflict between that part of
> the population which runs on cognitive autopilot and on the
> otherhand, those who do what they want for their own reasons. Many
> people are unable to tell the difference between what they want and
> what the companies want you to want.

BINGO!


>
> If person A. needs 36 spoke wheels, then he gets them. If person B is
> so chronically crippled by his need to conform and to be controlled by
> a sales influenced roleplaying 'script', then i guess we don't need to
> have a discussion, because that person doesn't appear to have a self-
> refernced thought of his or her own.

BINGO!!


>
> Some people do what they do, with little or NO reference to what
> others think. It's funny to note that things have turned full circle
> since the anti-conformity of the 60's. Conforming blindly seems to
> have become a great deal more acceptable. Case in point Peoplecarriers
> in the UK, simple 1950's idiotic 'keeping up with the Jones', such an
> unsophisticated faux pas during the ironic 80's. So it seems to be
> with the weightweenies movement in cycling, people believe everything
> they're told, if the can feel some form of relief from the 'consumer
> insecurity" which product A alleviates. Create a fear, then sell
> something to quench it. Only a total Fred would ride 36 spokes, buy
> our coincidentally cheaper to produce 28's, arrrrrrr, fear all gone.
> More than just a hint of Walden 2 or 1984.

One more time: BINGO!!!


>
> In the nicest possible way, those who ridicule others for this or that
> consumption choice should spend a few years studying psychology and
> then they might be a bit more understanding and kinder to fellow
> posters.
> Do what suits you, for your own reasons, and everyone is happy.
> all the best, Nick.



Great post, Nick.

 

[[email protected]]

well, no. moron A opened with rcaing improves the uh breed.
moron B followed with "that's not relevant"
moron C stated: "market forces are at work"

armstrong wins. maybe if we emulate armstrong then we can sell
bicycles
armstrong's gone so walmart(as an agent) steps in as the market force
director.

where's the beef? clearly, the consumer "wanting" (in oppositon to
your thesis)
a cycle has nooooo idea of what the cycle is was or can be. the
shotgun method was tried: we don't know what but something 's gotta
ring the register

so how do we sell the cycle? if they like walmart then we should try
walmart. the more wal sells, the more people believe wal's idea is a
good idea because if wal didn't sell then...

there's no darkness there.

 

[[email protected]]

> there's no darkness there.

lest yawl miss the point, preceeded by Bicycling Magazines most
excellent tour of the wine country via a LeMond ferrari ( 1/100): the
LBS offers a wal-alike butbutbut with appeal. ah, you walked into the
lBS, no? you are a conisewre, no? what better way to demo your
intelligence and good taste than a set of flashy wheels.
an ebisu wicker basket? for your mongrel to **** in? i think not!
in fcat i'm concerened that i should insult your intelligence thru
writing this BS.

 

[John Thompson]

On 2007-04-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Apr 11, 1:07 pm, John Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Funny boy. I'm still riding 36-spoke wheels I built over 20 years ago.
>> Do you think your low spoke count wheels will last that long?

> One could very easily imply you do not ride much at all.

One could, but one would be mistaken.

> Every time you apply the brake pads, friction is created, and
> something wears away. Mostly the brake pads. But a little bit of
> rim too.

Not with hub (disc/drum) brakes.

--

John ([email protected])

 

[[email protected]]

John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:

> Quite a stretch. Here's my challenge to you -- find a clear photo of
> what you describe. It can be in race action or a photo of a bike
> obviously being used in a race. Just before the start is OK. Just
> after the finish is OK too, as long as the wheel was not changed in
> the race. With 36-hole wheels.

Register at:
http://www.sirotti.it/

Choose: "Other races" from the race menu.
Select "April"
Select "GIRO DELLE FIANDRE"
Select "2006"

Picture no. d0602090 Thor Hushovd (around page 16)
Rather clear picture. All spokes on the front wheel except those
behind the fork are easily seen and counted.
Besides counting (try just counting the spokes on the lower half on
the wheel too), Andrew Muzi's explanation elsewhere in this thread on
how to recognize 32 and 36 spoked wheels also seems to classify these
wheels as 36 spoke wheels.

Picture no. d0602027 Thor Hushovd (around page 9)
While some of the spokes looks fuzzy, it seems clear to me, that spoke
pair opposite the valve pair is "narrow". Check Muzi's explanation
elsewhere on how to identify 32 and 36 spoke wheels.

Picture no. d0602069 Alessandro Ballan (around page 13)
Andrew Muzi's method seems to indicate that Ballan is riding a 36
spoke front wheel. Look at the spoke pair opening at 9 o'clock
compared to the pair at 3 o'clock.

> I'll give you $100 and a year for that. Any pic in the last three
> years from any Protour (or future protour) race, Paris-Roubaix not
> included.

I don't want your money. Give a donation to EFF instead if you really
want to pay.

--
Regards
Peter S.

 

[Peter Cole]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> One could very easily imply you do not ride much at all. Or at least
> do not ride these wheels much. Kind of like the little old lady from
> Florida who only drives her car to Church on Sunday. In 20+ years of
> riding I have ridden enough miles to crash and break rims. And to
> dent rims on potholes.
>
> I do not consider rims to be wear items like some people on this
> internet forum imply. But I definitely do not think they will last
> 20+ years with regular usage. Every time you apply the brake pads,
> friction is created, and something wears away. Mostly the brake
> pads. But a little bit of rim too.

I, on the other hand, have never dented or broken a rim, but I have worn
a few out. If you ride in the rain, it's inevitable.