only a total fred would use 36-spoke wheels...



On 9 Apr 2007 23:17:27 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Apr 9, 4:11 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> Yeah, he won by such a big margin I'm sure he would have been happy to
>> ride slower stuff. Sure he would. His 36-hole wheels would have been
>> no liability at all as he was going 45-55kph the last 15 minutes with
>> one other guy 15 seconds ahead of the chase. Sure.
>
>True... but if he was really riding Protons there wouldn't have been
>much difference. It is a realitively cheap (<$500) and heavy (1640g)
>wheelset, with a low profile rim and 22f 24r spokes.
>

I love the "not much difference thing." So let me get this straight -
if you were this guy's manager and you had the choice, would you have
him on 36 spoke reals in the key races of the year? Would you?

If not, why talk about it like that?

There's not much difference between 1st, 2nd and 10th in that race,
right, so ride simpler stuff so you can be curmudgeonly in RBT, huh?

>Lots of pros are still riding 32-36h box rims for any race with
>cobbles... interesting.

What evidence do you have that any pro has started any ProTour race
other than, maybe Paris-Roubaix with a 36-spoke wheel? Or are you
just making that up or fudging it with the 32?

--
JT
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On 2007-04-10, Ozark Bicycle <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 7:55 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> trek's commuter, tap left sidebar then 'portland' is offered with 32
>> spokes and discs
>
>
> TREK PORTLAND
> THE definitive Poseur's commuting bike
>
> "When it comes to everyday riding, the new Portland is not up to the
> job. Low spoke count wheels and a plastic fork work together to take
> the "R" and the "E" out of Reliability.

Are low spoke count wheels easier to machine build? In a recent
discussion it was explained to me how a 36H wheel can be true in the
stand, but have uneven spoke tensions, basically since there is so much
redundancy in the spokes. With a 16-spoke wheel on the other hand it
seems to me that unevenness in tension would result in visible wobble,
so all the machine has to do is find the wobbles and correct for them.

In conjunction with a sufficiently rigid rim, perhaps a low-spoke count
machine-built wheel may be more reliable than a 36H machine-built one
(until you break a spoke of course).

This may be another reason why manufacturers seem to like them, although
I don't dispute that fashion is also likely to be involved.
 
John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:
> On 9 Apr 2007 23:17:27 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I love the "not much difference thing." So let me get this straight -
> if you were this guy's manager and you had the choice, would you have
> him on 36 spoke reals in the key races of the year? Would you?

It depends on the race. A lot of the top spring classics are raced on
cobbles. Furthermore, a lot of the Belgian roads are narrow, so
support cars will often have a hard time reach riders with
wheelproblems until the entire peloton has passed by.

> What evidence do you have that any pro has started any ProTour race
> other than, maybe Paris-Roubaix with a 36-spoke wheel? Or are you
> just making that up or fudging it with the 32?

The following pictures is from the 91st Ronde van Vlaanderen - PT,
Belgium, April 8, 2007. One of the top spring classic races:

Not easy to count, but to me it looks like Nick Nuyens (Cofidis) has
36 spokes on his wheels:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/SPO-RVV07-015

Can't really see if there are 32 or 36 spokes here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/SPO-RVV07-024
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs001

The winner of the race (Ballan) also has a lot of spokes on his
wheels:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs020
Can't really see if there are 32 or 36 spokes on his wheel. But they
really don't look like the 20/24 spoke wheels Ballans usually uses for
racedays, but much more like his 36 spoke "training" wheels:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07

--
Regards
Peter S.
 

> What evidence do you have that any pro has started any ProTour race
> other than, maybe Paris-Roubaix with a 36-spoke wheel? Or are you
> just making that up or fudging it with the 32?
>
> --
> JT



Hi John, not willing to start a flame, but here

http://www.cyclingworld.dk/index.php?p=foto/profil.php&id=560
(scroll down, second picture)

you can see that Freire just won Milan-Sanremo on traditional 32 or 36
spoke wheels laced on DA hubs, for tubulars (Vittoria is my guess).
When he won Milan-Sanremo in 2004 he used the same kind of wheels.
Probably they are better for his delicate back, and probably he's the
only pro who still uses them: he's certainly the only sprinter.
Ciao
Luca
 
On 10 Apr 2007 10:53:51 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:
>> On 9 Apr 2007 23:17:27 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I love the "not much difference thing." So let me get this straight -
>> if you were this guy's manager and you had the choice, would you have
>> him on 36 spoke reals in the key races of the year? Would you?
>
>It depends on the race. A lot of the top spring classics are raced on
>cobbles. Furthermore, a lot of the Belgian roads are narrow, so
>support cars will often have a hard time reach riders with
>wheelproblems until the entire peloton has passed by.

So you are you saying you would for the Tour of Flanders. Honestly?

>> What evidence do you have that any pro has started any ProTour race
>> other than, maybe Paris-Roubaix with a 36-spoke wheel? Or are you
>> just making that up or fudging it with the 32?
>
>The following pictures is from the 91st Ronde van Vlaanderen - PT,
>Belgium, April 8, 2007. One of the top spring classic races:
>
>Not easy to count, but to me it looks like Nick Nuyens (Cofidis) has
>36 spokes on his wheels:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/SPO-RVV07-015
>
>Can't really see if there are 32 or 36 spokes here:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2...php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/SPO-RVV07-024
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs001
>
>The winner of the race (Ballan) also has a lot of spokes on his
>wheels:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/apr07/rvv07/fs020
>Can't really see if there are 32 or 36 spokes on his wheel. But they
>really don't look like the 20/24 spoke wheels Ballans usually uses for
>racedays, but much more like his 36 spoke "training" wheels:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07

That's weak evidence -- weak, blurry pictures. Every sharp photo
I've ever seen of a pro racing bike for any event other than
Paris-Roubaix in the last three or five years has had 32 spokes or
fewer. See if you can find one with 36. You can't.

--
JT
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On 10 Apr 2007 13:52:28 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>> What evidence do you have that any pro has started any ProTour race
>> other than, maybe Paris-Roubaix with a 36-spoke wheel? Or are you
>> just making that up or fudging it with the 32?

>
>Hi John, not willing to start a flame, but here
>
>http://www.cyclingworld.dk/index.php?p=foto/profil.php&id=560
>(scroll down, second picture)
>
>you can see that Freire just won Milan-Sanremo on traditional 32 or 36

Is it 32 or is it 36?
--
JT
****************************
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"Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> Hi John, not willing to start a flame, but here
>
> http://www.cyclingworld.dk/index.php?p=foto/profil.php&id=560
> (scroll down, second picture)
>
> you can see that Freire just won Milan-Sanremo on traditional 32
> or 36 spoke wheels laced on DA hubs, for tubulars (Vittoria is my
> guess). When he won Milan-Sanremo in 2004 he used the same
> kind of wheels. Probably they are better for his delicate back, and
> probably he's the only pro who still uses them: he's certainly the
> only sprinter.

It's very hard to tell, but aren't those the same 16/20 spoke Dura Ace
wheels he's using here:

http://www.diegoweb.net/cabello/and9.jpg

and here:

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=416974674&size=o

?

James Thomson
 
On Apr 9, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these things:
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>
> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
> >http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>
> All joking aside, I have two serious comments-
>
> #1: It's somewhat arrogant to assume that a flat-bar bike exists only for a
> bike path. There are a number of people out there, many of them my own
> customers, who do centuries on flat-bar road bikes (which is what's shown in
> your second link). I always make sure they have a legit need for a flat-bar
> bike, often almost forcing them against their desire to test-ride a drop-bar
> bike. Some just won't go for anything but the flat bar option though. And a
> couple of them might hold their own on an AltoVelo "A" ride.
>
> #2: Discovery trains on heavier, 32-spoke wheels. Called the "Classic", it's
> quite a bit heavier, and quite a bit less aero. But they like training on
> them because they race wheels then feel so much faster.

And they 'may' be a wee bit more reliable...

Guess it's like
> runners training with ankle weights. Come race time, the heavier wheels go
> away and the reduced-spoke-count wheels are used when it matters.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
 
> On 2007-04-10, Ozark Bicycle <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Apr 9, 7:55 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> trek's commuter, tap left sidebar then 'portland' is offered with 32
>>> spokes and discs
>> TREK PORTLAND
>> THE definitive Poseur's commuting bike
>> "When it comes to everyday riding, the new Portland is not up to the
>> job. Low spoke count wheels and a plastic fork work together to take
>> the "R" and the "E" out of Reliability.

Ben C wrote:
> Are low spoke count wheels easier to machine build? In a recent
> discussion it was explained to me how a 36H wheel can be true in the
> stand, but have uneven spoke tensions, basically since there is so much
> redundancy in the spokes. With a 16-spoke wheel on the other hand it
> seems to me that unevenness in tension would result in visible wobble,
> so all the machine has to do is find the wobbles and correct for them.
>
> In conjunction with a sufficiently rigid rim, perhaps a low-spoke count
> machine-built wheel may be more reliable than a 36H machine-built one
> (until you break a spoke of course).
>
> This may be another reason why manufacturers seem to like them, although
> I don't dispute that fashion is also likely to be involved.

Aside from building new wheels (where I have precious little 16-spoke
experience. One, actually) try truing a 16-spoke wheel after a couple
seasons of normal abuse. All the problems seem to fall between 2 spokes
.. . . Then whaddya do?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
well, you go into the wheel van, grab an armful and toss them at the
mechanic.
or you can cell phone from your balcony and tell the mechanic to...
or you can go down to walmart to preview the new models
minus fancy wheels
or you can avoid the killer pothole perms your rigid 24 spoke rim
or figure extra spare wheels into the shop (which is fun caws then you
figure you beat the pothole) delusional cycling 201
or you could ignore the entire process as ephemeral to cycling then
rollon with 36 holes.
as I did with the 27" rims.
but it's not that serious is it?
 
>> #2: Discovery trains on heavier, 32-spoke wheels. Called the "Classic",
>> it's
>> quite a bit heavier, and quite a bit less aero. But they like training on
>> them because they race wheels then feel so much faster.
>
> And they 'may' be a wee bit more reliable...

I believe I already covered that in a follow-up post-

>It would be very difficult to do a reasonably-good job of optimizing a 1500
>gram wheel and a 1900 gram version, and not have the 1900 gram wheel being
>stronger. I suppose, if it were entirely for the purpose of training on
>something heavier, they could provide optional weights to hang on the
>spokes, but in terms of durability, if a set of wheels that weighs 3/4
>pound
>more than another isn't stronger, something would seem quite wrong.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 9, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these
>> > things:
>> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>>
>> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
>> >http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>>
>> All joking aside, I have two serious comments-
>>
>> #1: It's somewhat arrogant to assume that a flat-bar bike exists only for
>> a
>> bike path. There are a number of people out there, many of them my own
>> customers, who do centuries on flat-bar road bikes (which is what's shown
>> in
>> your second link). I always make sure they have a legit need for a
>> flat-bar
>> bike, often almost forcing them against their desire to test-ride a
>> drop-bar
>> bike. Some just won't go for anything but the flat bar option though. And
>> a
>> couple of them might hold their own on an AltoVelo "A" ride.
>>
>> #2: Discovery trains on heavier, 32-spoke wheels. Called the "Classic",
>> it's
>> quite a bit heavier, and quite a bit less aero. But they like training on
>> them because they race wheels then feel so much faster.
>
> And they 'may' be a wee bit more reliable...
>
> Guess it's like
>> runners training with ankle weights. Come race time, the heavier wheels
>> go
>> away and the reduced-spoke-count wheels are used when it matters.
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
>
 
John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:

> That's weak evidence -- weak, blurry pictures. Every sharp photo
> I've ever seen of a pro racing bike for any event other than
> Paris-Roubaix in the last three or five years has had 32 spokes or
> fewer. See if you can find one with 36. You can't.

The pictures are just std. race photos, no better or worse than
usually from cyclingnews.com.
You call the evidence weak. But lets take the Ballan example:

Look at Ballans bike here, notice the front wheel:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07

Take a closer look at the article:
" "The team //mostly// uses these three-cross wheels in training,"
Biron added as we looked at Ballan's wheels, which use Campagnolo
Record hubs laced to tubular box-section rims. At 1.9 metres tall (6'
2"), Ballan needs a little extra strength and support when he rides,
and the Italian rider runs 36 spokes up front as a result. "

Notice how he says _mostly_, not _exclusively_. Also notice how Ballan
rides with 36 at the front. So by Ballans own account that he and his
team _race_ 3x spoke box rims, and that Ballan himself uses a 36 spoke
front wheel, one can deduce, that 36 spoke 3x box rims can be found in
present day Pro Tour races.

--
Regards
peter_s
 
On 11 Apr 2007 04:25:15 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson skrev:
>
>> That's weak evidence -- weak, blurry pictures. Every sharp photo
>> I've ever seen of a pro racing bike for any event other than
>> Paris-Roubaix in the last three or five years has had 32 spokes or
>> fewer. See if you can find one with 36. You can't.
>
>The pictures are just std. race photos, no better or worse than
>usually from cyclingnews.com.
>You call the evidence weak. But lets take the Ballan example:
>
>Look at Ballans bike here, notice the front wheel:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2007/probikes/?id=ballan_wilier07
>
>Take a closer look at the article:
>" "The team //mostly// uses these three-cross wheels in training,"
>Biron added as we looked at Ballan's wheels, which use Campagnolo
>Record hubs laced to tubular box-section rims. At 1.9 metres tall (6'
>2"), Ballan needs a little extra strength and support when he rides,
>and the Italian rider runs 36 spokes up front as a result. "
>
>Notice how he says _mostly_, not _exclusively_. Also notice how Ballan
>rides with 36 at the front. So by Ballans own account that he and his
>team _race_ 3x spoke box rims, and that Ballan himself uses a 36 spoke
>front wheel, one can deduce, that 36 spoke 3x box rims can be found in
>present day Pro Tour races.

Quite a stretch. Here's my challenge to you -- find a clear photo of
what you describe. It can be in race action or a photo of a bike
obviously being used in a race. Just before the start is OK. Just
after the finish is OK too, as long as the wheel was not changed in
the race. With 36-hole wheels.

I'll give you $100 and a year for that. Any pic in the last three
years from any Protour (or future protour) race, Paris-Roubaix not
included.
--
JT
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On 11 Apr, 00:38, "James Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
> > Hi John, not willing to start a flame, but here
>
> >http://www.cyclingworld.dk/index.php?p=foto/profil.php&id=560
> > (scroll down, second picture)
>
> > you can see that Freire just won Milan-Sanremo on traditional 32
> > or 36 spoke wheels laced on DA hubs, for tubulars (Vittoria is my
> > guess). When he won Milan-Sanremo in 2004 he used the same
> > kind of wheels. Probably they are better for his delicate back, and
> > probably he's the only pro who still uses them: he's certainly the
> > only sprinter.
>
> It's very hard to tell, but aren't those the same 16/20 spoke Dura Ace
> wheels he's using here:
>
> http://www.diegoweb.net/cabello/and9.jpg
>
> and here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=416974674&size=o
>
> ?
>
> James Thomson


Yes, my fault, I have found a better picture

http://www.bettiniphoto.net/show.php?&sid=&function=categ&categ=2&parent=1260&livello=1

picture is called "Oscar Freire alla partenza"; that clearly shows I
was wrong, those are the DA wheels you are referring to

Ciao
Luca
 
On Apr 10, 9:30 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> #2: Discovery trains on heavier, 32-spoke wheels. Called the "Classic",
> >> it's
> >> quite a bit heavier, and quite a bit less aero. But they like training on
> >> them because they race wheels then feel so much faster.
>
> > And they 'may' be a wee bit more reliable...
>
> I believe I already covered that in a follow-up post-
>
> >It would be very difficult to do a reasonably-good job of optimizing a 1500
> >gram wheel and a 1900 gram version, and not have the 1900 gram wheel being
> >stronger. I suppose, if it were entirely for the purpose of training on
> >something heavier, they could provide optional weights to hang on the
> >spokes, but in terms of durability, if a set of wheels that weighs 3/4
> >pound
> >more than another isn't stronger, something would seem quite wrong.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
> > On Apr 9, 5:09 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > No self-respecting metric century rider would be caught with these
> >> > things:
> >> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tech/probikes/ballan_wilier07/...
>
> >> > In contrast, here's a bike built ready for the bike path:
> >> >http://www2.trekbikes.com/images/bikes_my07/large/79fx_nudecarbon.jpg
>
> >> All joking aside, I have two serious comments-
>
> >> #1: It's somewhat arrogant to assume that a flat-bar bike exists only for
> >> a
> >> bike path. There are a number of people out there, many of them my own
> >> customers, who do centuries on flat-bar road bikes (which is what's shown
> >> in
> >> your second link). I always make sure they have a legit need for a
> >> flat-bar
> >> bike, often almost forcing them against their desire to test-ride a
> >> drop-bar
> >> bike. Some just won't go for anything but the flat bar option though. And
> >> a
> >> couple of them might hold their own on an AltoVelo "A" ride.
>
> >> #2: Discovery trains on heavier, 32-spoke wheels. Called the "Classic",
> >> it's
> >> quite a bit heavier, and quite a bit less aero. But they like training on
> >> them because they race wheels then feel so much faster.
>
> > And they 'may' be a wee bit more reliable...
>
> > Guess it's like
> >> runners training with ankle weights. Come race time, the heavier wheels
> >> go
> >> away and the reduced-spoke-count wheels are used when it matters.
>
> >> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> >> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> >> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Guess I gotta ask why the 32 hole wheels weigh so much? We build
reliable 1600 gram wheelsets all the time, Mavic, DT or Velocity rims,
DA, Campag and DT hubs...hardly ever weigh anywhere near 1900 grams.
 
On 11 Apr, 15:29, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2007 05:13:16 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I have found a better picture
>
> >http://www.bettiniphoto.net/show.php?&sid=&function=categ&categ=2&par...
>
> Nice site -- thanks for the info Here's the direct link to that
> picture of Freire:http://www.bettiniphoto.net/image/2_0014971_1_thumb2.jpg
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************


On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
Where's the problem?
Ciao
Luca
 
On 11 Apr 2007 07:08:17 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
>wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
>frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
>Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
>I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
>with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
>approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
>Where's the problem?

The problem is using a false example to back up an argument.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Luca Magnoni wrote:
> On 11 Apr, 15:29, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On 11 Apr 2007 05:13:16 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have found a better picture
>>> http://www.bettiniphoto.net/show.php?&sid=&function=categ&categ=2&par...
>> Nice site -- thanks for the info Here's the direct link to that
>> picture of Freire:http://www.bettiniphoto.net/image/2_0014971_1_thumb2.jpg
>> --
>> JT
>> ****************************
>> Remove "remove" to reply
>> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
>> ****************************
>
>
> On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
> wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
> frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
> Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
> I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
> with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
> approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
> Where's the problem?
> Ciao
> Luca
>


People are looking for justification for their choice.. Silly...

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
 
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 11 Apr 2007 07:08:17 -0700, "Luca Magnoni" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On the other hand.... I have seen many flamewars on this ng about
>>wheels (those about helmet I prefer to skip them altogether), and
>>frankly I don't understand all of this arguing about them.
>>Racing/training wheels are different as they have different purposes.
>>I race with a set of Cosmic (carbon, 16 spoke front 20 rear) and train
>>with a 36-spoke wheels, so I put 8000 km/year on the traditional and
>>approx 1500/year on the Cosmic... every wheelset has its own purpose.
>>Where's the problem?
>
> The problem is using a false example to back up an argument.
> --
> JT

6000 mi. a year seems reasonable to me.

I know of one pretty heavy rider who trains with a 36 spoke
rear and a 32 front, and when he races uses his a 16/20.
Very strong rider.
-tom
 
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