Lance - To Do Ironman 2006?

[[email protected] (Larry Weisenthal)]

>>is there
anything besides his cancer story and his notariety that make him a
good
political prospect <<

Without the latter, would Reagen, Schwartzenegger, Edward Kennedy, or
George W Bush (I read that a very significant percentage of Texans who
voted for the latter in his first race for Governor were under the
impression that they were voting for George HW Bush) have been good
political prospects? Or Jeb Bush? Or John McCain? Or any of thousands
of politicians who got into politics at all levels because of some
fortuitous "notariety?"

To make it in big time politics, one increasingly needs either great
"notariety" or great wealth.

In addition to notariety, Lance has demonstrated determination and
capacity for hard work, ability to withstand withering attacks on his
character and integrity, and he is quite good in interviews. He's also
telegenic.

I also get the impression that he is the one who is the true master of
his domain; he is not the product of agents, sponsors, and "handlers,"
unlike certain successful politicians, who have required the latter to
succeed. I think that, like John McCain, he's likely to be his own man,
which, by itself, will make him way above average for a national
politician. On the other hand, this independence may well get him into
trouble. It takes only a single ill-considered comment/guote to kill a
political career.

I'm glad that he eschewed whole brain radiation, which he did out of
concern that it would affect his balance and coordination. That, and
the somewhat unconventional chemotherapy (chosen also to preserve his
full athletic potential) were gambles which paid off.

 

[User]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:14:19 -0400, Mike Tennent
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Sam" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I will call ******** on this.
>>
>>There have been tri-geeks shooting their wads over this fantasy that LA will
>>return to triathlon to bring some notoriety to the sport.
>>
>
>Bring notoriety? <chuckle> Sorry, but the IM stands on its own with
>or without Lance. (Notice which race is on network and which is on
>OLN.)
>

But it will probably never match the TDF in level of international
interest. That basic fact is, that it is just not as entertaining
watching a bunch of people scattered over 140+ miles racing against
the clock, as it is watching an event where the final outcome is often
not decided until the last few hundred meters. The TDF is actually
many races in one, but that cannot be said for the ironman, or any
triathlon in its current format.

In triathlon, there are no intermediate sprint points, no points for
winning the swim, etc. If you want to generate more interest, you've
got to make it more interesting. Having draft-legal events does this
to some degree, but even then, the only prize for which people compete
in the bike leg is to be in the fastest group. Certainly, there is
little reason for a breakaway, when you've still got to run on your
own. If they put the bike ride at the end of a draft-legal event and
applied the rules of road racing, then it would begin to make an
interesting event, since it would have the potential for a sprint
finish.

>The conversations I've seen are simply an honest fascination with the
>idea. Would he be a strong enough runner to hold what lead he might
>have in T2?
>
>>Ain't gonna happen is what I say.
>>

At most, he probably just shows up for an occasional local races and
smokes a bunch of amateurs.

>
>I agree, but apparently not for the same reasons.
>
>Mike Tennent
>"IronPenguin"

 

[Tom Henderson]

User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> The TDF is actually
> many races in one, but that cannot be said for the ironman, or any
> triathlon in its current format.
>

Actually, it's said about triathlon all of the time. Remember, AGers are
on the same course with the pros, many are there just to see if they can
do it, and others have specific thresholds, AG award aspirations, and IMH
qualifications they are shooting for. I'd argue the case that very few,
if any sporting events have as many races going on at the same time as a
triathlon.

As for changing the format dramatically in order to make it more
spectator friendly, that discussion occurs here at least every 90 days.
IMHO, the sport works wonderfully for the participants as is, and I've
never seen a convincing argument for even the changes that have been made
in the pro olympic version of the sport.

Some sports manage to get air time simply because so many people play
them recreationally, such as golf and bowling, which I find hideously
boring to watch. Perhaps this will one day be the case for tri.

Tom

 

[tiggyboo]

[email protected] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote:
> >>is there
> anything besides his cancer story and his notariety that make him a
> good
> political prospect <<
>
> Without the latter, would Reagen, Schwartzenegger, Edward Kennedy, or
> George W Bush (I read that a very significant percentage of Texans who
> voted for the latter in his first race for Governor were under the
> impression that they were voting for George HW Bush) have been good
> political prospects? Or Jeb Bush? Or John McCain? Or any of thousands
> of politicians who got into politics at all levels because of some
> fortuitous "notariety?"

True enough.

> To make it in big time politics, one increasingly needs either great
> "notariety" or great wealth.

Yep.

> In addition to notariety, Lance has demonstrated determination and
> capacity for hard work, ability to withstand withering attacks on his
> character and integrity, and he is quite good in interviews. He's also
> telegenic.

A major question in my mind is to what extent he's able to live with
delegation of authority. As "The Boss" in the pelaton his tendency was
very much to take matters into his own hands (granted, sometimes out of
necessity) rather than rely on teammates like most other GC contenders
in many situations.

> I also get the impression that he is the one who is the true master of
> his domain; he is not the product of agents, sponsors, and "handlers,"
> unlike certain successful politicians, who have required the latter to
> succeed. I think that, like John McCain, he's likely to be his own man,
> which, by itself, will make him way above average for a national
> politician. On the other hand, this independence may well get him into
> trouble. It takes only a single ill-considered comment/guote to kill a
> political career.

I tend to agree that his independence may well work against him, and I
don't take issue with the positive elements you've identified. But to
a certain extent, lining Lance up for politics as kind of a forgone
conclusion (not your words, but the general feeling I get from among
his proponents at large) is kind of like assuming a person is going to
have a great career in art because:

- He's desperately poor
- He has a bandage over one ear
- He's well aquainted with the gallery intelligencia
- He looks good in a beret
- He named his first daughter Gertrude

In a nutshell, I'm looking for some genuine content in the way of a
political outlook to reinforce the idea that he'd succeed in politics.
I.e., not merely his opinion on a given issue for opinion's sake - but
something to show he's able to address the issues intelligently, and
that he has a genuine interest in doing so.

> I'm glad that he eschewed whole brain radiation, which he did out of
> concern that it would affect his balance and coordination. That, and
> the somewhat unconventional chemotherapy (chosen also to preserve his
> full athletic potential) were gambles which paid off.

Yeah, those where gutsy calls that definitely paid off - although a bit
of brain damage might have better equipped him for Austin/Washington
.

- Al

 

[User]

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:41:14 GMT, Tom Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> The TDF is actually
>> many races in one, but that cannot be said for the ironman, or any
>> triathlon in its current format.
>>
>
>Actually, it's said about triathlon all of the time. Remember, AGers are
>on the same course with the pros, many are there just to see if they can
>do it, and others have specific thresholds, AG award aspirations, and IMH
>qualifications they are shooting for. I'd argue the case that very few,
>if any sporting events have as many races going on at the same time as a
>triathlon.
>
>As for changing the format dramatically in order to make it more
>spectator friendly, that discussion occurs here at least every 90 days.
>IMHO, the sport works wonderfully for the participants as is, and I've
>never seen a convincing argument for even the changes that have been made
>in the pro olympic version of the sport.
>
>Some sports manage to get air time simply because so many people play
>them recreationally, such as golf and bowling, which I find hideously
>boring to watch. Perhaps this will one day be the case for tri.
>
>Tom

In it's current format (usat rules) the only interaction between
competitors that can legally occur is interference. By that, I
specifically mean the issues of dropping back, then having to pass a
cyclist again. Other than that and having to crawl around a few slow
swimmers, it is essentially a race against the clock.

It would be much more interesting if you got rid of all the aerobar
bikes (since they have no place in the peloton) and put a draft-legal
bike ride at the end. To keep the competitiveness up, the top 3 in
each pack could either be given a time bonus over the others or ranked
above them, with everyone else in that pack given the exact same time.
Given that the bike ride is almost always the longest event, it makes
sense that it should have rules as similar as possible to the
traditional road race.

 

[rsquared]

User wrote:
<<SNIPPED>>

> It would be much more interesting if you got rid of all the aerobar
> bikes (since they have no place in the peloton) and put a draft-legal
> bike ride at the end. To keep the competitiveness up, the top 3 in
> each pack could either be given a time bonus over the others or ranked
> above them, with everyone else in that pack given the exact same time.
> Given that the bike ride is almost always the longest event, it makes
> sense that it should have rules as similar as possible to the
> traditional road race.

Uh-Ohhh...

Now you've done it. Just when the thread was beginning to wind-down.
; )

I'll insert the inevitable:

* In some ways cycling seems to have borrowed from triathlon. It does
not follow that triathlon could be elevated by imitating cycling, or
swimming, or running.

rsquared

 

[Mike C]

So I'm wondering if that was why John Kerry was hanging around at the
Tour---giving Lance some windsurfing tips???

Lance probably won't jump in and to Ironman if what he has said in the
not too distant past is to be taken at face value. Be interesting if
he sheds any light in the interview to be shown tonight on OLN, but I
wouldn't count on it.

He'll have major commitments to Discovery Channel for the run of his
contract, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn up on Tour
coverage next year in an effort to stem the tide of folks who won't
watch because Lance isn't racing anymore (I'm not one of those, by the
way).

Ironman? Maybe one day, when he gets really bored. But I think it's a
giant maybe----probably not much "up side" for him doing it, and lots
of potential "down side".

Mike C

jj wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:13:47 -0600, "Aspiring Tortoise"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Anthony A. <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I say look for him on the Cross circuit this year.
> >> He did a few races this year, and by all accounts, he was not
> >dominant
> >> in them.
> >>
> >> If course this is all wild speculation on my part. For all i know he
> >> could be getting involved in full-contact curling.
> >>
> >Surfing.
>
> You know he's a decent water skiier, right? He did mention wind surfing.
>
> jj

 

[Tom Henderson]

User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> It would be much more interesting if you got rid of all the aerobar
> bikes (since they have no place in the peloton) and put a draft-legal
> bike ride at the end. To keep the competitiveness up, the top 3 in
> each pack could either be given a time bonus over the others or ranked
> above them, with everyone else in that pack given the exact same time.
> Given that the bike ride is almost always the longest event, it makes
> sense that it should have rules as similar as possible to the
> traditional road race.
>

Golf would be much more interesting if the competitors wore body armor
and could hit each other with their clubs at random times during the
competition.

But then, that's not really what golfers want to do, is it?

You might be on to something though. Put a series of races together. Form
a set of rules for the athletes to abide by that provides for safe, fair
competition. I wish you well and hope you are quite successful!

But PLEASE don't call it "triathlon." BRASR, maybe? Bike Race After a
Swim and Run!

;-)

Tom

 

[[email protected]]

2008 Olympic...The Gold is still missing in the collection...

 

[User]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:21:51 GMT, Tom Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> It would be much more interesting if you got rid of all the aerobar
>> bikes (since they have no place in the peloton) and put a draft-legal
>> bike ride at the end. To keep the competitiveness up, the top 3 in
>> each pack could either be given a time bonus over the others or ranked
>> above them, with everyone else in that pack given the exact same time.
>> Given that the bike ride is almost always the longest event, it makes
>> sense that it should have rules as similar as possible to the
>> traditional road race.
>>
>
>Golf would be much more interesting if the competitors wore body armor
>and could hit each other with their clubs at random times during the
>competition.
>

Golf has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of gladiator type
sport, thus there's no reason to do anything like that -- it would be
completely arbitrary. USA Triathlon, on the other hand, has taken a
time-tested, spectator-friendly sport and bastardized it and made it
boring to watch with a set of unenforceable and impractical rules.
And did I mention how stupid it looks to run in bike shoes.
Professional cyclists don't do that. Put the ride at the end, and you
eliminate that problem.

Triathlon is a much newer sport, thus its organizers would do well to
learn from the organizers of each of its components, particularly
cycling. Watch a professional bike race sometime and notice that
every rule and every prize for every type of event (the stages, team
time trials, and individual time trials) makes perfect sense in light
of the format of each event.

USAT would do well to learn these lessons and forget all that purist
**** about "individual effort". If all you really want to get is an
objective measure of individual ability and effort, the only way is
put everyone in lap pools and then on stationary bikes and treadmills.
I wonder how many sponsors and viewers that sort of event would get.

>But then, that's not really what golfers want to do, is it?
>
>You might be on to something though. Put a series of races together. Form
>a set of rules for the athletes to abide by that provides for safe, fair
>competition. I wish you well and hope you are quite successful!
>
>But PLEASE don't call it "triathlon." BRASR, maybe? Bike Race After a
>Swim and Run!
>

Nobody will have any interest in an unpronouncable acronym. Triathlon
is not a trade name and could really represent any combination of 3
sports.

>;-)
>
>Tom

 

[Tom Henderson]

User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> USAT would do well to learn these lessons and forget all that purist
> **** about "individual effort".

????????

So, I assume your rant intends to say that the only way USAT can fix the
bastardization of the sport know as draftathalon is by moving the draft
legal bike to the end of the race?

The red carpet is rolled out, all you have to do is step out of the limo
and accept your award...

 

[Mike Tennent]

User <[email protected]> wrote:

> the only way is
>put everyone in lap pools and then on stationary bikes and treadmills.
>I wonder how many sponsors and viewers that sort of event would get.
>

Oh, about as many as most bike races in the US get.

One thing many folks outside triathlon don't seem to grasp is that
triathlon is not three kinds of races in one - it's one race, with
three elements. Your approach to each discipline in the race is
different than if it was done singly. The training is different and
the race strategy is different.

Further, we don't CARE how you do it in bike racing. No more than you
or I care about golf rules. It's irrelevant. It's a different sport.

Enjoy your bike races, I do. But let me enjoy my sport, too. Which is
a different sport, with different rules, than yours.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

 

[metallifried]

I saw the clip last week on the Daily Show's website. I thought it was
amusing. Yes, making fun of someone for a physical ailment is usually
considered base, but I think an awful lot depends on the voice and the
intent behind it. Theirs was not one of malice. He's not sick, he's
not dying, he's not handicapped, and in fact, he's considered one of
the most outstanding athletes of all time. Saying he needs help in
lovemaking and 'it is a team sport' is funny simply because it's
completely untrue.

I'd like to add that I'm sure that it comes across differently reading
a synopsis than watching the actual show. I tried reading it, but I
still have Rob Corrdry's voice in my head, so am unable to read it with
any objectivity. You may still have found the joke classless, and
you're obviously welcome to that opinion, I just thought I'd express
mine.

 

[Mike Kruger]

"Mike Tennent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> ... we don't CARE how you do it in bike racing. No more than
you
> or I care about golf rules. It's irrelevant. It's a
different sport.
>
> Enjoy your bike races, I do. But let me enjoy my sport, too.
Which is
> a different sport, with different rules, than yours.
>
It's easier to make up "interesting" rules changes for sports
you know only a little about.

 

[Roger Cortesi]

> ng is different and
> the race strategy is different.
> Further, we don't CARE how you do it in bike racing. No more than you
> or I care about golf rules. It's irrelevant. It's a different sport.


I would try golf (and think it cool) if it was done like a biathlon
(shooting and skiing). Where you run from hole to hole (carrying your
club(s) of course) and you had to do a penalty distance for each stroke
over par needed.

I would still suck at it as it still involves hand-eye coordination...
but the running around would be nice.

--
To email me, remove the greeting from my email address.

(for athletes) The Digital Athletic Log http://rogercortesi.com/athleticlog/

(for nerds) The Online Equation Editor http://rogercortesi.com/eqn/

 

[User]

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 11:21:27 GMT, Tom Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>User <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> USAT would do well to learn these lessons and forget all that purist
>> **** about "individual effort".
>
>????????
>
>So, I assume your rant intends to say that the only way USAT can fix the
>bastardization of the sport know as draftathalon is by moving the draft
>legal bike to the end of the race?
>

You know the thing that makes spectator sports, such as professional
cycling, interesting to watch is that more than individual abilities
and effort are involved. Strategy is a major part of the equation as
well. When you're just racing against the clock, that all goes out
the window.

Think about this fact also: most triathletes spend nearly half their
race time and half their training time on the bike. The bike ride is
the fastest event of a triathlon. Seeing people jog, stagger, or
otherwise struggle across the finish line on foot, and often alone, is
anticlimatic, when they could instead be breaking free from a pack and
sprinting across the line.

I've heard the criticisms of having a draft-legal ride in the middle:
(1) that really isn't an interesting ride because there is no reason
to attack, it is all about saving your legs for the run, (2) that it
is punitive to faster or slower swimmers, etc. (3) that it
degenerates to a 10k race, etc. What I'm proposing would solve many
of those problems and maybe help the sport of triathlon mature into
something as respectable as professional cycling.



>The red carpet is rolled out, all you have to do is step out of the limo
>and accept your award...

 

[Tamyka Bell]

User wrote:
<snip>
> ... What I'm proposing would solve many
> of those problems and maybe help the sport of triathlon mature into
> something as respectable as professional cycling.

Oh I get it, you're trolling!

Tam

 

[Roger Cortesi]

>
> degenerates to a 10k race, etc. What I'm proposing would solve many
> of those problems and maybe help the sport of triathlon mature into
> something as respectable as professional cycling.
>

WOW, that will through some gas on the thread! But I'll bite...

Refresh my memory again... why does it need to be more "respectable"


--
To email me, remove the greeting from my email address.

(for athletes) The Digital Athletic Log http://rogercortesi.com/athleticlog/

(for nerds) The Online Equation Editor http://rogercortesi.com/eqn/

 

[User]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 22:27:40 -0400, Roger Cortesi
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> degenerates to a 10k race, etc. What I'm proposing would solve many
>> of those problems and maybe help the sport of triathlon mature into
>> something as respectable as professional cycling.
>>
>
>WOW, that will through some gas on the thread! But I'll bite...
>
>Refresh my memory again... why does it need to be more "respectable"

There are two types of triathletes I know: (1) those who draft at
every opportunity, but maybe take an occasional time penalty, maybe
even less occasional DQ, but for the most part, get by with it. (2)
Those who vehemently **** and moan about group 1 at every opportunity,
complain about how unfair it is, etc.

In essence, you have an unenforceable rule. If you want a
draft-prohibited bike race that is truly functional, you must do as
the elite professionals do: time trial with individual starts and a
car with a referee behind every cyclist. Anything else, and you have
a rule that is not enforceable and a sport that is not respectable.

Think about it this way, what if you played baseball on the "honor
system", with referees randomly calling maybe 1 out of 50 of
everything? How often do you think a batter would declare himself to
strike out? How many sponsors and spectators would such a sport get?
I know that USAT has referees, but they are so few and far between,
that their races are essentially done on the honor system.

 

[Kernal Mustard]

Hi Radioactive Man, welcome back. Followups to rec.sport.triathlon
only.

> Seeing people jog, stagger, or otherwise struggle across the
> finish line on foot, and often alone, is anticlimatic, when
> they could instead be breaking free from a pack and sprinting
> across the line.

I don't think the finish of a triathlon is anticlimatic. The finishing
line of an Ironman is one of the most incredible human spectacles in
the world. One important reason for this is because the finishers have
completed the course by individual effort. The sport of triathlon would
not be more exciting to me if there was a sprint finish out of the
peleton to the finish.

That you think that triathlon is a boring spectator sport and a sprint
finish on the bike would create interest makes me wonder why you even
care about triathlon. Go create your own sport, with a bike sprint at
the end. You can call it the Radioactive User Man Triathlon.

Maybe lots of people will flock to it. I won't be one of them.

--
Ray