Is it true that the "round pedalling stroke" is a myth?

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

Please don't look to me to explain or defend his theories. As far as I'm concerned it's just idle speculation and trying to make sense of a talented cyclist that didn't appear to pedal like everyone else. For all we know Anquetil was so talented that he succeeded in spite of an inefficient pedaling style not because of it but we'll never know as we lack the empirical data.

When Noah can produce objective data that demonstrates his theories, we might pay attention but he's been pushing this stuff for at least the six years I've been on these boards but there's still no data or case studies supporting his linear pedaling ideas.

-Dave

I think we should not get personal here...

I think the 11-5 stroke is not a theory but what a lot of big gear mashers actually do. but those guys are certainly no toe pointers but strong guys sitting as far back as they can so that the can start the mashing earlier. but I don't really see any of that in anquetil.

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

wouldn't a be a 11 to 5 pushing be more of a mashing style rather than a round stroke? why would you use toe down for this?

I always thought that the push down dominant guys use a heel down style and the toe down style is used by high cadence spinners who are not creating high downward forces

Defend my theories, he cannot even get my name right. This special technique is not theory it's fact. It's not mashing and not round. As I already said, a strong sliding type force is used to apply max torque at 12 ,1 and 2 o'c and this can only be done with the toe down foot position. The toe down style also gives an extended power stroke and this is necessary when you are capable of applying effective torque over the entire 180 degrees. Dave's natural power stroke is effective over only 120 degrees. The toe down angle can vary depending on which saddle position you are using, forward or rearward. Rearward is more effective and less toe down. As I understand it, the mashing style means pedal force is being applied vertically downward, you can't start this power application before 1 o'c because almost all of that force would be lost due to reduced tangential effect. Even at 1 o'c much of the force is lost.. What you may be referring to is the "ankling" style.

 

[alienator]

 Defend my theories, he cannot even get my name right. This special technique is not theory it's fact. It's not mashing and not round. As I already said, a strong sliding type force is used to apply max torque at 12 ,1 and 2 o'c and this can only be done with the toe down foot position. The toe down style also gives an extended power stroke and this is necessary when you are capable of applying effective torque over the entire 180 degrees. Dave's natural power stroke is effective over only 120 degrees. The toe down angle can vary depending on which saddle position you are using, forward or rearward. Rearward is more effective and less toe down. As I understand it, the mashing style means pedal force is being applied vertically downward, you can't start this power application before 1 o'c because almost all of that force would be lost due to reduced tangential effect. Even at 1 o'c much of the force is lost.. What you may be referring to is the "ankling" style.

It's a fact in your fantasies. It has to because you've yet to offer facts in the real world. There is no linear pedaling when the pedals are constrained to move in a circle. There is no sliding because there is no linear motion when the pedals are constrained to move only in a circle. You should look up the definition of "fact" because the way your using that term is wrong. If you actually had any facts about your "linear" pedaling style, you'd have presented them by now. The research papers that show how cyclists actually apply force throughout a rotation of the cranks have actual evidence. You've only got your claims....claims for which you cannot produce any facts. I think the worth of your "theory" is seen in your claim to know how Anquetil applied power throughout a crank rotation.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .

I have a question regarding pedalling.physics dictates that only forces perpendular to the crank generate propulsion. cycling books (at least the ones not older than 20 years old) devide the stroke in 4 phases: the push down, pull back, lift up and kick forward phase. my track coaches told me that too and emphazises pedalling with "souplesse" and it makes a lot of sense because you use the full circle.

Like most researchers you are stuck on some false premises.

For the most part bicyclists are limited by the transport of fuel, O2, and byproducts. The question is how to best apportion the transport products during the full pedal stroke - both legs.

Most riders put out the majority of power on the down stroke and minimal power during the rest of the stroke. Most likely that is optimal for the actual constraints.

It is possible to pedal inefficiently, but it is unlikely that people who bicycle at a reasonable level are doing much wrong.

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by n crowley .


Defend my theories, he cannot even get my name right. This special technique is not theory it's fact. It's not mashing and not round. As I already said, a strong sliding type force is used to apply max torque at 12 ,1 and 2 o'c and this can only be done with the toe down foot position. The toe down style also gives an extended power stroke and this is necessary when you are capable of applying effective torque over the entire 180 degrees. Dave's natural power stroke is effective over only 120 degrees. The toe down angle can vary depending on which saddle position you are using, forward or rearward. Rearward is more effective and less toe down. As I understand it, the mashing style means pedal force is being applied vertically downward, you can't start this power application before 1 o'c because almost all of that force would be lost due to reduced tangential effect. Even at 1 o'c much of the force is lost.. What you may be referring to is the "ankling" style.

Ok then were are probably talking about different things. I was talking about a style when a rider slides to the very end of the saddle so that he is far behind the bottom bracket which creates a natural forward angle in the push. especially in climbs you will see that. this of course makes the rider using the top part of the circle more and the bottom part less. the rider is then not pedalling more round but just changing his push angle a little because the fulcrum point (hip) is shifted back.

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by alienator .


It's a fact in your fantasies. It has to because you've yet to offer facts in the real world. There is no linear pedaling when the pedals are constrained to move in a circle. There is no sliding because there is no linear motion when the pedals are constrained to move only in a circle.

A masher applies his crank torque to the circular moving pedal by using the bending and unbending of the knee and pressing straight down from the knee (mentally linear style) on the pedal. My technique delivers the crank torque from both the hip and knee to the circular moving pedal by using the bending and unbending of both the ankle and knee in a similar way. Natural pedallers don't use the muscles of the lower leg/ankle. Coach Alex Simmons had his lower leg amputated after a road accident and had a prosthesis fitted, He can now produce greater pedal power than what was possible before his accident.

 

[alienator]

In other words, Crowley, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Instead your using a lot of BS and some terms you likely don't understand in order to give the appearance that you do not know what you are talking about. The decided lack of proof from you is verification that you have nothing to offer but fantasy and/or lies.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .

The problem with pervasive myths like this is that they spawn even more myths like the need to scrape mud at the bottom of the pedal stroke or as Frost points out, squander good riding time with legged drills or that clipless pedals increase power by allowing a rider to pull up on the backstroke. All of these are debunked with a look at pedaling torque plots but many folks still hold onto and perpetuate those myths because they sound plausible or feel right.

It's interesting that Lemond advocated the mud scraping, or in his words like a bull scraping it's hoofs before charging the bullfigher. He also dismissed riding a track bike to improve pedal stroke and believed it actually caused more harm than good (I share his sentiment on this one). Goes to show that even the pro's are not immune from these myths.

But the from Dave's quote above I find the defining statement for my own opinion on this topic... "squander good riding time" (as in don't)

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by alienator .

In other words, Crowley, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Instead your using a lot of BS and some terms you likely don't understand in order to give the appearance that you do not know what you are talking about. The decided lack of proof from you is verification that you have nothing to offer but fantasy and/or lies.

I will put it another way, Danfoz says "don't squander good riding time". In an hour's time trialling a masher's legs are effectively idling for almost a third of this time when they could be applying the same torque that they apply between 2 and 4 o'c. In addition they are applying a semi tangential force to their cranks between 1 and 2 o'c when with a different technique it could be fully tangential, not very efficient you will have to admit. This means, in a non climbing TT Anquetil had a time advantage over all other riders even before he started the TT. If any researcher is prepared to do the travelling with a suitable powermeter, I will supply the pedalling for testing. Back to op's question, circular pedalling is a useful style, the myth's lie in claiming that pulling up can increase pedal power and that it is the perfect way to pedal.

 

[alienator]

 I will put it another way, Danfoz says "don't squander good riding time".  In an hour's time trialling a masher's legs are effectively idling for almost a third of this time when they could be applying the same torque that they apply between 2 and 4 o'c. In addition they are applying a semi tangential force to their cranks between 1 and 2 o'c when with a different technique it could be fully tangential, not very efficient you will have to admit. This means, in a non climbing TT Anquetil had a time advantage over all other riders even before he started the TT. If any researcher is prepared to do the travelling with a suitable powermeter, I will supply the pedalling for testing.  Back to op's question, circular pedalling is a useful style, the myth's lie in claiming that pulling up can increase pedal power and that it is the perfect way to pedal.

A. You can't determine anything about Anquetil's power output as a function of crank angle. You don't have the tools or the data. B. Once again, you mouth a lot of words without a single iota of proof for your fantasy pedaling method. If you have data, show it. Otherwise you don't have anything. It's time to put up or shut up, Naomi.

 

[dominikk85]

Well I would say anquetil had about the same power output as merckx, coppi,indurain and all the other greats. I don't think that the pedalling style makes a huge difference there.

there is really no evidence that anquetil used another stroke than other guys. yes it did look odd but mostly because of the toe pointing. we would need an actual force curve on the pedal to say anything in that regard.

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by alienator .


A. You can't determine anything about Anquetil's power output as a function of crank angle. You don't have the tools or the data.
B. Once again, you mouth a lot of words without a single iota of proof for your fantasy pedaling method.
If you have data, show it. Otherwise you don't have anything. It's time to put up or shut up, Naomi.

BrimBros new powermeter (long overdue), when it becomes available, should be able to supply the completely different pedalling graph, but then like F Day's graphs and data, posters like yourself would probably say it is a forgery. That's why it would have to be done by a reliable independent researcher.

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by dominikk85 .


. yes it did look odd but mostly because of the toe pointing.

It looks odd because there is no dead spot sector to be seen during TT pedalling footage. As J Bobet said "Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion".

 

[alienator]

     BrimBros new powermeter (long overdue), when it becomes available, should be able to supply the completely different pedalling graph, but then like F Day's graphs and data, posters like yourself would probably say it is a forgery. That's why it would have to be done by a reliable independent researcher.

But see, you have no data. You have no facts at all on which to base your "theory" (read: half-baked opinion). None. You certainly do not have the skills, the data, or anything else with which to judge a rider's power output from a movie. And that's something you just don't get. Data is everything when you are talking about power output as a function of crank angle. You certainly have no clue what your power output is as a function of crank angle. On top of all that, pedaling toe down tells you nothing as it's just how some people pedal. Show your proof, 'cuz if you don't have any, you're not in position to make proclamations, certainly not the stupid proclamations you are making now.

 

[alienator]

 It looks odd because there is no dead spot sector to be seen during TT pedalling footage. As J Bobet said "Anquetil was perfection  at continuous motion".

Apparently, Norma thinks himself an expert video judge. So expert, that with no visual evidence, he thinks he can deduce someone's power output as a function of crank angle. Where's your data, Norma? What? You don't have any?

 

[Chalama123]

 

[dominikk85]

Originally Posted by n crowley .



It looks odd because there is no dead spot sector to be seen during TT pedalling footage. As J Bobet said "Anquetil was perfection at continuous motion".

do you have a good youtube video of him? I always find vids with a lot of talking and not a lot of cycling

 

[jpwkeeper]

You know, reading about watching video of this guy, whomever he is, is making me have a hypothesis. Hopefully it'll pass quickly and painlessly.

What if the real benefit to the "round" pedaling stroke isn't to smooth out power generation? What if it is to improve overall pedaling form?

Said another way, don't mashers tend to wiggle a bit when they pedal? So would a "rounder" pedaling stroke quiet the upper body, conserving energy and reducing positional changes that could reduce available pedaling force?

I know when I'm going up a hill, focusing on pedaling round feels like it helps, especially if I'm already tired. Maybe that help isn't coming from increased or smoothed power generation, but greater overall efficiency in my body.

Said another way, maybe round-feeling pedaling doesn't so much change your power signature as measured as it would change how much energy you're using to generate that signature. Sure, the signature would be a little different, but maybe just not that much.

The next question would be how to test it. Open to suggestions on that one, but I suspect it could be done sans power meter since that's not the objective of the test.

 

[n crowley]

Originally Posted by alienator .


But see, you have no data. You have no facts at all on which to base your "theory" (read: half-baked opinion). None. You certainly do not have the skills, the data, or anything else with which to judge a rider's power output from a movie. And that's something you just don't get. Data is everything when you are talking about power output as a function of crank angle. You certainly have no clue what your power output is as a function of crank angle. On top of all that, pedaling toe down tells you nothing as it's just how some people pedal.
Show your proof, 'cuz if you don't have any, you're not in position to make proclamations, certainly not the stupid proclamations you are making now.

I have the technique and that's all that matters, which I discovered (years before Anquetil's video became available) when I succeeded in biomechanically combining upper and lower body muscles for increased power output when riding in the natural racing drops position. It cannot be copied and it does not take long to detect if someone else is using it.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by n crowley .



I have the technique and that's all that matters, which I discovered (years before Anquetil's video became available) when I succeeded in biomechanically combining upper and lower body muscles for increased power output when riding in the natural racing drops position. It cannot be copied and it does not take long to detect if someone else is using it.

I think we naturally find what works best for our own particular anatomies (i.e. femur/tibia-fibula length, etc.) in context wih our riding positions. It sounds like you have found yours. Personally i have always pedaled with my hips and not my legs, or at least my brain sees it that way. Any force vector that does not originate as an extension from my center is going to be sub par by comparison. And it's not mashing either, as my ride data indicates an average of around 95-105rpms with rock steady hips and upper body. But what do you mean by cannot be copied? Maybe there is video of another rider from the media era who rides similarly which we can compare against? Unless the pro peleton hasn't caught up to this new pinnacle of pedal power.